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Daughter forced to believe in God

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    #632
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    It's not learning it's indoctrination. Kids are being told beliefs are facts. Like you said they're very young for that.


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    #633
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Oh No!
    :pac:

    I'm not saying it's right or wrong to have it as a requirement but your sarcasm aside you still need it for 4 of the 5 biggest universities in the country (TCD being the exception).


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    #634
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,114 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Orion wrote: »
    You do for NUI

    There's more than one way to get into college (even NUI). Mature students need not present LC results at all.


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    #635
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,057 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Gerry T wrote: »
    When the child declared they didn't believe, theat's when. It's not a "must decide" situation. The teacher can let the child off and take it up with the parent another day, say send a note home. But trying to argue and ram your opinion into a 7yr old, with threats is not the right thing to do. The school SHOULD NOT assume students will take RE, they should get parents written permission. It's not up to the parents.


    I would explain that it's a compulsory subject unless you have an exemption (say being dyslexic) so unfortunately they have to do Irish and should accept that and get on with it while at school.

    How does the teacher know that the parent is ok with the child refusing to believe in God unless the parent tells the school?

    We would have a similar outrage thread on here if a religious parent found out that their child specifically wasnt being taught Catholicism (for example) purely because they child said the didnt believe.

    What exactly is wrong with expecting the parent to inform the school that the child isnt to be taught religion? No one seems to be able to give me a reason why this is a problem or an unreasonable request of the parent.


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    #636
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,057 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Dades wrote: »
    You don't need to pass religion to get into college.

    Likewise for Irish, History and pretty much all other subjects.

    Anyway, the point isnt why you should learn something, the argument put forth on this thread is that it should be up to the child and that the teacher shouldnt question the child's opinion.


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    #637
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Cabaal wrote: »
    So much for the message of peace and love in the Alive-O books.

    As opposed to that bastion of tolerance that is Alive magazine :D


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    #638
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,057 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Cabaal wrote: »
    My point being some posters here are claiming that people should keep within the catholic ethos,

    A students or teacher for that matter being gay is very much against the catholic ethos given that the pope called gay people unnatural.

    So its all very well to claim "stay within ethos" but the reality is that ethos very much discriminates and teaches hate towards our fellow species. So much for the message of peace and love in the Alive-O books.

    If that's to me, then my point was that its not unreasonable for the school to expect that the children enrolled in it will be willing to learn and follow that ethos, especially if they havent be informed otherwise.

    Your or indeed my acceptance or agreement with that ethos is an entirely separate manner. As we have seen, once the discussion with the school was had there was/is no issue.
    Had that been done when the parent decided that the child was not religious (based on the reasoning of a 7 year old) we wouldnt have this thread.


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    #639
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Speaking of Alive how does this fit in with the whole tolerance argument. This is exactly why catholic patronage and state sponsorship of it should be removed.

    321676.PNG


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    #640
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I wouldn't even go so far as to say religion should be removed completely from schools but I don't see why it can't be done as an afterschool activity much the same way sports, drama etc are. That way everyone who wants religion gets it but those who don't don't :) The class should be done by a member of the church freeing teachers to educate children in the important things.


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    #641
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    lukesmom wrote: »
    I agree with her going to the masses and seeing what happens I just think she could learn also in the RE classes in the classroom instead of being excluded. She might actually enjoy it is all. 7 is very young to make up your mind. I'm not trying to argue.

    Is seven too young for Luke to make up his mind about being catholic and receiving the sacrament of holy communion?


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    #642
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    lukesmom wrote: »
    I agree with her going to the masses and seeing what happens I just think she could learn also in the RE classes in the classroom instead of being excluded. She might actually enjoy it is all. 7 is very young to make up your mind. I'm not trying to argue.



    I'd be inclined to agree with you if all religion and atheism had equal status in the classroom, after all, how can you decide you want to be Catholic when you have nothing to compare it to. When the class is overwhelmingly skewed in favour of one faith though its a different story.


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    #643
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I wouldn't even go so far as to say religion should be removed completely from schools but I don't see why it can't be done as an afterschool activity much the same way sports, drama etc are. That way everyone who wants religion gets it but those who don't don't :) The class should be done by a member of the church freeing teachers to educate children in the important things.

    Again that's the way it's done in ET schools - at least for doctrinal education. The parents organise it and have the use of the classrooms after hours. The religion requirement is satisfied with a moral and ethical curriculum within school.


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    #644
    Weathering
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Weathering


    Don't send her to a Catholic school then. They shouldn't force her to believe either but what did you really expect to happen? They probably think they are trying to "save her" Morale of the stoty is don't send her to a religious school then biitch when they try to impose religion upon their students


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    #645
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Weathering wrote: »
    Don't send her to a Catholic school then. They shouldn't force her to believe either but what do did you really expect to happen? They probably think they are trying to "save her" Morale of the stoty is don't send her to a religious school then biitch when they try to impose religion upon their students



    Easier said than done, not everyone has non religious schools in their area.


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    #646
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Weathering wrote: »
    Don't send her to a Catholic school then. They shouldn't force her to believe either but what do did you really expect to happen? They probably think they are trying to "save her" Morale of the stoty is don't send her to a religious school then biitch when they try to impose religion upon their students

    What school would you propose sending her to if there is no non-Catholic school around - which is the case in most towns in Ireland. About 90% of primary schools are catholic which doesn't exactly leave a lot of choice. If you read the op you will see that he moved her from an ET school to a catholic one for logistical reasons - that presumably means that he moved and couldn't get in to an ET school when we moved to.


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    #647
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Can we get a mod warning added to the thread title warning posters to read (or at the very least skim) the whole thread before commenting?


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    #648
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    Weathering wrote: »
    Don't send her to a Catholic school then. They shouldn't force her to believe either but what did you really expect to happen? They probably think they are trying to "save her" Morale of the stoty is don't send her to a religious school then biitch when they try to impose religion upon their students
    another one.

    please go back and read the thread before commenting on things that have already been responded to a ridiculously large number of times, this is starting to feel like groundhog day every couple of hours.


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    #649
    Weathering
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Weathering


    Don't worry I read OP so settle yourself Swamp. If you feel that strongly about it and are that distressed about, wait for it a Catholic school then you should do everything in your power to go an ET school and if you can't make that happen well tough just get on with it. A Catholic school is a Catholic school simple as that, don't complain when teach Religion or enforce it. You knew what you were letting yourself in for it is what it is.


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    #650
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    lazygal wrote: »
    Is seven too young for Luke to make up his mind about being catholic and receiving the sacrament of holy communion?

    Yes in my opinion it is or was as my Luke is now in secondary school.


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    #651
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Easier said than done, not everyone has non religious schools in their area.

    afaik, actually nobody has a non-religious school in their area, the best that most people can hope for is multi-denominational in the form of educate together school as I don't think there is a single school in the country that is truly secular.


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    #652
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Likewise for Irish, History and pretty much all other subjects.
    There's nothing likewise about it. If your child doesn't pass Irish he/she would be excluded from going to an NUI college (including UCD) after their LC. That is a real thing and potentially a big thing if the course your child wants is in one of those colleges.
    GreeBo wrote: »
    Anyway, the point isnt why you should learn something, the argument put forth on this thread is that it should be up to the child and that the teacher shouldnt question the child's opinion.
    What you are advocating is that the child is not old enough to know what they believe (have you conversed with many 7/8 yr olds?) therefore they should be left in class where they will eventually succumb to the indoctrination or die of boredom and be buried in an unmarked grave. What is to be gained by forcing the child to be involved?


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    #653
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Yes in my opinion it is or was as my Luke is now in secondary school.

    but you pushed him through it anyway even though you thought he was too young?


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    #654
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    swampgas wrote: »
    Can we get a mod warning added to the thread title warning posters to read (or at the very least skim) the whole thread before commenting?
    A good idea in theory, but in practice, it's hard to do that on a rapidly-moving thread with ~650 messages in the space of one week.

    FWIW, I think most posters would read or skim the most recent twenty or thirty posts - anything more than that is probably expecting a little much.


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    #655
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    vibe666 wrote: »
    but you pushed him through it anyway even though you thought he was too young?

    Correction, I thought he was too young to decide for himself so yes he made his communion and conformation like the rest of his class. I'm not an athiest so I had no problem with him being taught and involved in RE classes. If I was an athiest I would make damn sure that his teacher knew well in advance that he wouldn't be participating in RE.


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    #656
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Weathering wrote: »
    Don't worry I read OP so settle yourself Swamp. If you feel that strongly about it and are that distressed about, wait for it a Catholic school then you should do everything in your power to go an ET school and if you can't make that happen well tough just get on with it. A Catholic school is a Catholic school simple as that, don't complain when teach Religion or enforce it. You knew what you were letting yourself in for it is what it is.

    another uneducated comment,
    nice job


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    #657
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    update 1
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92058583&postcount=39

    OP doesn't mind religion being taught
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92138440&postcount=607

    until his daughter said she didn't want to make communion
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92130915&postcount=450

    now OP has resolved this with the Principal
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92136196&postcount=571



    Maybe a mod wants to put ^ that in the OP or a link to it


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    #658
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    GreeBo wrote: »
    A 7 year old doesnt have the ability to make those complicated decisions, hence they cannot legally drink, vote or be convicted of crimes like an adult would. This is not *my* basis, its pretty common throughout the first world.

    Maybe its changed now, but back in the eighties, children were at least 7 before first confession and first holy communion because the church deemed them old enough at that age and not before, to understand right from wrong, and know what sins they were commiting and therefore had to confess.
    Weathering wrote: »
    Morale of the stoty is don't send her to a religious school then biitch when they try to impose religion upon their students

    Where would you propose I send my son when there is no non-catholic school in a 50 mile radius to our home? And I'm not halfway up a mountain either!

    Families in cities and towns have choices, sometimes depending on waiting lists for schools, but millions of us dont - we live in rural areas where even having a newsagent is several miles away. So I dont get the luxury of choice - the best I can hope for is that my child can opt out of RE in class time, and not get bullied for his family beliefs.


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    #659
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Weathering wrote: »
    Don't worry I read OP so settle yourself Swamp. If you feel that strongly about it and are that distressed about, wait for it a Catholic school then you should do everything in your power to go an ET school and if you can't make that happen well tough just get on with it. A Catholic school is a Catholic school simple as that, don't complain when teach Religion or enforce it. You knew what you were letting yourself in for it is what it is.

    So if the only option is a catholic school then tough sh1t - become a practising catholic and stop whinging. Is that what you're saying? If so then you're talking complete crap. Kids can and do have the option to excuse themselves from religious education - in any school. What happened in the OP was completely out of order and has been resolved satisfactorily for the parent through rational measures. I'd hope that you never become a school principal with your attitude.


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    #660
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    vibe666 wrote: »
    but you pushed him through it anyway even though you thought he was too young?

    Its ok, Luke was indoctrinated into the right sort of belief.
    that makes everything all ok no matter what age the child is. :pac:

    But having a child at any age with no belief...pfft they are too young to understand that
    :rolleyes:


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    #661
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    vibe666 wrote: »
    please go back and read the thread before commenting on things that have already been responded to a ridiculously large number of times, this is starting to feel like groundhog day every couple of hours.
    Given this response I doubt it would have made a difference.
    Weathering wrote: »
    if you can't make that happen well tough just get on with it. A Catholic school is a Catholic school simple as that, don't complain when teach Religion or enforce it. You knew what you were letting yourself in for it is what it is.
    "Weathering. Championing minority rights since 2012".


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