Daughter forced to believe in God

brianon · 10-09-2014 12:29pm

bajer101 wrote: »

No, same room. While it's not ideal (ideally there should be no Religion in any state funded schools), I'm happy with the outcome. My original problem was that she was being told that she had to believe in God and that has been more than resolved.

Exactly the same outcome here. Started yesterday. Four girls (one being my 7 year old daughter) in the class not participating in RE. Each was given a folder with school work to do.

They sit together during RE and do there work while being respectful to the other kids doing RE and those doing the RE do so respecting those not participating.

As for you having to collect your child while the rest make trips to the church.

There will be a fair number of those trips in February and especially in May. The school need to arrange something for her. Not you. Pretty sure it's the schools job. Ofc, you may wish to just collect her.

GreeBo · 10-09-2014 12:31pm

RustyNut wrote: »

I would have expected a professional educator, even a devout catholic teaching in a (state paid for)"catholic" school to take one of their students declaring that they don't believe in god during a religion class as an opportunity to have a discussion on the matter not tell the kid that they must believe or bad things will happen.

The kid in this instance has nothing to worry about imo as their dad is obviously well on top of his game but how many other kids don't have someone like the OP in their corner and get the same oppressive treatment?

For all we know the teacher is fresh out of college and panicked because they forsaw a bunch of kids all going home and asking why doesnt God exist.

A parent "on top of their game" would have had the discussion before the problem started not after.

DeltaWhite · 10-09-2014 12:38pm

Glad to see the update OP. I kept away from posting on this thread purely because the amount of times you have had to explain yourself to others who quite obviously don't know how to read was seriously, seriously infuriating to me, don't know how you've kept your calm.

Again, fair play to you

lukesmom · 10-09-2014 12:40pm

So OP you don't mind her going along to a few masses? I'm very surprised at this to be honest. As a father who is an athiest and is very proud of the fact that his daughter announced that she doesn't believe in God, why would you let her sit in on the masses? She will hardly have a folder of work to do there at holy ceremonies??? You are so adamant that your girl shouldn't have any RE classes for something she doesn't believe in yet she can sit in the church full of Catholics while they practise their religious masses. The mind boggles.

lazygal · 10-09-2014 12:48pm

lukesmom wrote: »

So OP you don't mind her going along to a few masses? I'm very surprised at this to be honest. As a father who is an athiest and is very proud of the fact that his daughter announced that she doesn't believe in God, why would you let her sit in on the masses? She will hardly have a folder of work to do there at holy ceremonies??? You are so adamant that your girl shouldn't have any RE classes for something she doesn't believe in yet she can sit in the church full of Catholics while they practise their religious masses. The mind boggles.

Do you feel the same way about none believers attending Catholic services for weddings, funerals and other occasions? Does Luke attend any faith services of other denominations?

bajer101 · 10-09-2014 12:49pm

GreeBo wrote: »

For all we know the teacher is fresh out of college and panicked because they forsaw a bunch of kids all going home and asking why doesnt God exist.

A parent "on top of their game" would have had the discussion before the problem started not after.

Can I please, please put a stop to this once and for all. There was no discussion to be had before the problem. I was allowing her to be taught Religion and to make her Communion. I am an Atheist, but the last time I had spoke to my daughter about God (brief discussion), she said that she believed in God and heaven. During her very first Religion class, they were colouring in a picture of Jesus and the teacher was speaking about God. At that moment in time something clicked inside my daughter's head and she realised that she did not believe in God and she said so.

I know the way her mind works. I have sat and watched in amazement (as I'm sure a lot of parents do) as her brow furrowed as she worked out puzzles or learned new things. At that moment in time she realised that this was bullshít and blurted it out. She then refused to back down. That was when the problem arose and when I had to take action.

A commentator who was "on top of their game" wouldn't have to have the same point explained to them countless times.

eviltwin · 10-09-2014 12:52pm

lukesmom wrote: »

So OP you don't mind her going along to a few masses? I'm very surprised at this to be honest. As a father who is an athiest and is very proud of the fact that his daughter announced that she doesn't believe in God, why would you let her sit in on the masses? She will hardly have a folder of work to do there at holy ceremonies??? You are so adamant that your girl shouldn't have any RE classes for something she doesn't believe in yet she can sit in the church full of Catholics while they practise their religious masses. The mind boggles.

Don't see anything wrong with that. I'm atheist myself but would go to important masses, weddings, funerals etc. I wouldn't go to a Sunday service but will probably bring my son along to one when he is old enough. Its educational, it helps him understand the religion a bit better and will hopefully teach him the importance of it to others which should encourage him to respect it. You don't learn anything about the world by keeping to your own and refusing to mix.

I don't know why you are so keen to have a go at the OP, he's come to a conclusion that works for his family, he doesn't need to justify it.

RustyNut · 10-09-2014 12:52pm

lukesmom wrote: »

So OP you don't mind her going along to a few masses? I'm very surprised at this to be honest. As a father who is an athiest and is very proud of the fact that his daughter announced that she doesn't believe in God, why would you let her sit in on the masses?

I've let my daughter go to several masses, she sees it like going to the theater or the circus.
Should I not let her go and see what she makes of it herself?

Dades · 10-09-2014 12:54pm

lukesmom wrote: »

So OP you don't mind her going along to a few masses? I'm very surprised at this to be honest. As a father who is an athiest and is very proud of the fact that his daughter announced that she doesn't believe in God, why would you let her sit in on the masses? She will hardly have a folder of work to do there at holy ceremonies??? You are so adamant that your girl shouldn't have any RE classes for something she doesn't believe in yet she can sit in the church full of Catholics while they practise their religious masses. The mind boggles.

Why don't you drop the hyperbole for once and read posts before launching one?

Honestly, lukesmom, unless your next few posts suggest you've actually understood what has previously been posted I'm going to ask you leave this thread for the sake of everyone's blood pressure.

vibe666 · 10-09-2014 12:55pm

lukesmom wrote: »

So OP you don't mind her going along to a few masses? I'm very surprised at this to be honest. As a father who is an athiest and is very proud of the fact that his daughter announced that she doesn't believe in God, why would you let her sit in on the masses? She will hardly have a folder of work to do there at holy ceremonies??? You are so adamant that your girl shouldn't have any RE classes for something she doesn't believe in yet she can sit in the church full of Catholics while they practise their religious masses. The mind boggles.

you really don't have much of an understanding of a non-catholic existence do you?

we aren't vampires, we aren't going to burst into flames when we walk over the threshold of a church and just as non-catholic adults and children are perfectly able to sit in a church during catholic weddings or funerals, there is no reason for the OP's daughter not to watch her school friends all dressed up and jumping through a few hoops to get a wad of cash at the end of it.

pwurple · 10-09-2014 12:58pm

bajer101 wrote: »

No, same room. While it's not ideal (ideally there should be no Religion in any state funded schools), I'm happy with the outcome. My original problem was that she was being told that she had to believe in God and that has been more than resolved.

Glad it has been resolved, the teacher was indeed out of line saying something like that.

I actually don't think it is possible to "force" anyone to believe something like this. They either do or they don't. They can be told to pretend etc, but that's about it.

bajer101 · 10-09-2014 1:00pm

lukesmom wrote: »

So OP you don't mind her going along to a few masses? I'm very surprised at this to be honest. As a father who is an athiest and is very proud of the fact that his daughter announced that she doesn't believe in God, why would you let her sit in on the masses? She will hardly have a folder of work to do there at holy ceremonies??? You are so adamant that your girl shouldn't have any RE classes for something she doesn't believe in yet she can sit in the church full of Catholics while they practise their religious masses. The mind boggles.

The mind certainly does boggle! I mentioned before that she had attended mass previously with my mother and that I had no problem with that. The problem I had was with her being told that she had to believe in God. The odd mass is no big deal for me. If she tells me that she hates it and that it's all mumbo jumbo (the way it appears to me when I attend mass for funerals or weddings), and that she doesn't want to have to listen to it, then I'll arrange to have her collected and not attend.

BTW, I noticed that the Post where I announced that I had met the Principal and that we reached an amicable solution was thanked/Liked by a good few people. But interestingly, none of the "Catholics" who were arguing that I should send her to a different school or that it's all my fault, etc. thanked the post. I would have thought that as good Catholics they would have been delighted that one of their schools was so accommodating and would have been genuinely pleased with the outcome. But no. As has been my experience, it's the Atheists who exhibit the Christian behaviour, and the Christians who behave sinfully!

GreeBo · 10-09-2014 1:09pm

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

What about the child's right to express their beliefs in a frank and open way without being bullied?

Irrespective of the ability of the Child to make decisions or not (which you have no basis at all to make) do you believe the 7 year old should have been threatened with removal from the school and told they *must* believe in this god?

What basis do you have for saying that 7 year olds will "always" do this or that. Do you have any kids?

A 7 year old doesnt have the ability to make those complicated decisions, hence they cannot legally drink, vote or be convicted of crimes like an adult would. This is not *my* basis, its pretty common throughout the first world.

Cabaal wrote: »

Catholic ethos means gay = bad,
Dept Of Education guidelines means gay = ok and not to be bullied.

So we have a situation where if a student is gay the school ethos hates them but the Dept Of Education thinks they are fine, I think I'll take my moral teachings from somebody other then the school ethos as their ethos is incompatiable with our anti-discrimination laws.

This is why right now a catholic ethos school can discriminate against gay teachers, its a shocking state of affairs. Teach respect for others....as long as you like them.

If any child in any catholic ethos school wants to talk about their family and their family just happens to be gay or one of them divorced they have every right in the world to talk about them.

Stop making excuses for the backward catholic ethos

I'm not sure what argument you are making. What has gay got to do with it? Its not a "straight" school.
Im not making any excuses for anything, there should be more schools that are religion agnostic, but there also should be more hospitals, better roads.
Reality is often inconvenient in these matters.

Gerry T wrote: »

Not really the same, I think you analogy would be better put if a soccer club received funding from the league, and the rules allowed for both boys and girls to play. Then if a soccer club excluded girls they would be refused the funding.

I have no problem with a catholic school dictating that only practicing catholics can attend, but I do have a problem when its state funded---my taxes, my money.

While its not really relevant there is nothing stopping a girl playing for a boys soccer team. In Dublin I know both the DDSL and SDFL leagues have girls playing on boys teams. The point I'm making is the Church shouldn't feel threatened if children want to explore other faiths, if they want to provide a means of RE education they should set up and fund their own "sunday" school. But in state funded schools no RE or Moral teaching class should be focused on a single religious belief.

When you boil it down how did the church accumulate all this property, by getting money from people, in essence all the school property etc... belong to the people. The church shouldn't have the say in what happens.

The Catholic school didnt exclude her because she is not Catholic, in fact the school didnt even know.
How was the teacher expected to know that the child wasnt to be taught Catholicism?
Your argument about the church and property etc is irrelevant to this discussion and just anti-Catholic schools in general. (Which I dont necessarily disagree with btw)

vibe666 wrote: »

because the parent didn't cause the issue, the teacher did by breaching the constitutional rights of the child.

ANY child in this state has a constitutional right to NOT have any religion forced on them regardless of what they may have believed up to that point and regardless of any ethos the school may hold if that school receives public funding.

If another baptised child of catholic parents had decided one day that they didn't believe in god that would be their right also and neither a teacher nor principle have any right to try and force religion onto them by telling them that they HAVE to believe in god and threaten to expel them if they do not.

The parent could have avoided it by letting the teachers/school know.
Again, how does the school/teacher know that they shouldnt be teaching the child religion?
They cant do it solely based on the 7 year old, otherwise I wouldnt have done Irish, Maths etc.

Dades wrote: »

The horrible irony is that, in my opinion, only children can believe in the catholic God when freshly presented with the information. You leave it until they're old enough to really assess the truth and most of them will reject it out of hand.

I believe the church knows this, and deep down most parents do too. Hence the determination to get them funneled into that mindset from an early age.

I also think many adults do a disservice to 7 and 8 year olds in terms of their comprehension. Kids don't reject the idea of God because they examined that facts and are convinced by the evidence, they don't reject the God concept because they're brought up not to question and with the promise of a Big Day Out and a Swiss bank account.

Indeed.
A child is much more likely to believe in a "thing" rather than the science of a puddle of ooze.

vibe666 wrote: »

i think you might need to read the thread again, the OP has explained exactly what happened and it is not how you seem to think it did.

Also, just to confirm, unless I am misunderstanding you, what you seem to be saying is that you think it's perfectly okay for teachers to breach Irish Constitutional and EU laws to force religion onto a child that doesn't want it?

you think it's okay for a child to be indoctrinated against their will just because they have a baptismal cert (which the OP's daughter does have btw)?

The parents decide what religion the child is taught. They then inform the school
Expecting the school to listen to the views of a 7 year old child is frankly ridiculous.

bajer101 wrote: »

Can I please, please put a stop to this once and for all. There was no discussion to be had before the problem. I was allowing her to be taught Religion and to make her Communion. I am an Atheist, but the last time I had spoke to my daughter about God (brief discussion), she said that she believed in God and heaven. During her very first Religion class, they were colouring in a picture of Jesus and the teacher was speaking about God. At that moment in time something clicked inside my daughter's head and she realised that she did not believe in God and she said so.

I know the way her mind works. I have sat and watched in amazement (as I'm sure a lot of parents do) as her brow furrowed as she worked out puzzles or learned new things. At that moment in time she realised that this was bullshít and blurted it out. She then refused to back down. That was when the problem arose and when I had to take action.

A commentator who was "on top of their game" wouldn't have to have the same point explained to them countless times.

What would your approach be if your childs mind was opened and they decided that learning Irish was bull****?

jojobeans · 10-09-2014 1:11pm

There are a whole lot of athiests allowing their children to be educated in catholic schools and I am one of them.
In a year the ops child will be preparing for first holy communion and will probably be heartbroken that she wont be taking part.
I dont feel you need to make a big deal about believing or not believing in god at this age, kids also believe in tooth fairys and santa claus but grow out of it. Like myself I grew out of believing and so will my daughter.
I know people will disagree with it but I know the majority of parents in my childs school are athiest and only participate in communions/confirmations
as a tradition or to keep the grandparents happy.

pwurple · 10-09-2014 1:12pm

lukesmom wrote: »

So OP you don't mind her going along to a few masses? I'm very surprised at this to be honest. As a father who is an athiest and is very proud of the fact that his daughter announced that she doesn't believe in God, why would you let her sit in on the masses? She will hardly have a folder of work to do there at holy ceremonies??? You are so adamant that your girl shouldn't have any RE classes for something she doesn't believe in yet she can sit in the church full of Catholics while they practise their religious masses. The mind boggles.

What a ridiculous post. What do you think other non-believers do?

OP has a very mainstream center-leaning position... Like heaps of other people! In my family we consider ourselves christian athiest. Following the general teachings, traditions and cultural events, but non-believers in the divinity aspect. We will raise the children christian (Baptised catholic but mainly COI services and going to a COI school) until they express any other preference, and then do exactly as OP has done here.

There is no exclusion principle in christian churches. Whoever wants to come in, can come in.

Gerry T · 10-09-2014 1:13pm

lukesmom wrote: »

So OP you don't mind her going along to a few masses? I'm very surprised at this to be honest. As a father who is an athiest and is very proud of the fact that his daughter announced that she doesn't believe in God, why would you let her sit in on the masses? She will hardly have a folder of work to do there at holy ceremonies??? You are so adamant that your girl shouldn't have any RE classes for something she doesn't believe in yet she can sit in the church full of Catholics while they practise their religious masses. The mind boggles.

My kids have been given a catholic upbringing, while I don't have any belief in the church and a unusual faith (I don't believe in most of the writings in the bible but am open to the idea that a greater power is responsible for the universe, science hasn't come up with a good explanation as yet).
I want my kids to get all perspectives, religion, Atheist, Jewish etc... and they can decide for themselves what to believe. Why would you find it difficult to understand that people want their children to see both sides of an argument and decide for themselves. It's all about teaching your kids to not accept things at face value, but to question and reason for themselves, its the basics of becoming a whole person.
Would you like your children to question and maybe decide that a Muslim ethos is what they want... wouldn't you be happy for them that they have made a concious decision without undue infulence

Czarcasm · 10-09-2014 1:13pm

bajer101 wrote: »

BTW, I noticed that the Post where I announced that I had met the Principal and that we reached an amicable solution was thanked/Liked by a good few people. But interestingly, none of the "Catholics" who were arguing that I should send her to a different school or that it's all my fault, etc. thanked the post. I would have thought that as good Catholics they would have been delighted that one of their schools was so accommodating and would have been genuinely pleased with the outcome. But no. As has been my experience, it's the Atheists who exhibit the Christian behaviour, and the Christians who behave sinfully!

Excuse me?

After everything I've posted, and you're still as intolerant as ever.

I wouldn't say based on my experience all people who are atheist were intolerant though, just a mere handful, and usually it's nothing to do with the fact they're atheist. It's more to do with the fact that they have big, weighty chips on their shoulders.

Gerry T · 10-09-2014 1:16pm

GreeBo wrote: »

For all we know the teacher is fresh out of college and panicked because they forsaw a bunch of kids all going home and asking why doesnt God exist.

A parent "on top of their game" would have had the discussion before the problem started not after.

A teacher is there to handle these situations. If they can't they shouldn't be in the room. They get paid to do a job, its their responsibility to manage bullies, not be the bully

bajer101 · 10-09-2014 1:19pm

[QUOTE What would your approach be if your childs mind was opened and they decided that learning Irish was bull****?[/QUOTE]

I'd do what my parents did when I told them that I thought learning Irish was a waste of my time. I'd get her to do an O'Level through the NI board of education and use that to satisfy University entry requirements. If she was too young to sit that exam, I'd explain to her that she will have to study it to a certain standard because, unfair as it is a requirement for entrance to most Universities and it is also the law that she be taught it up to a certain age.

But it's not exactly the same. One is a dislike of a subject and the other is a disbelief of a subject.

BonsaiKitten · 10-09-2014 1:20pm

Gerry T wrote: »

You will find my statement is not wrong,

If you look at the primary school curriculum http://www.ncca.ie/uploadedfiles/Cur.../Intro_Eng.pdf you won't find the word religion mentioned once and the only mention of the word catholic is mentioned twice and that's in reference to a catholic primary school association. So if the primary school could stick with the curriculum set out by the NCCA.

The word religion is not mentioned in the cirriculum, and catholic is only mentioned twice. SO how am I wrong ? Taking a brief look through the cirriculum the aim, apart from the typical subjects includes a section on development of a spiritual and moral values. I think the church see's that as a singular RCC religious education. Why not do a general RE class and not devote so much time during primary education to rituals like communion and confirmation

No...I'll still find your statement wrong. I know the curriculum.

Page 70 of that document, chapter 6 on curriculum implementation.
There's a specific guideline in there for religious instruction time.

Page 28 talks about the centrality of the Christian tradition in Ireland, and diversity of beliefs today.

Page 40 recognises religion as a curriculum area and says that a curriculum for religion is the responsibility of the separate Church authorities (or ET etc). Page 58 goes into more detail on that. It also talks about providing alternatives for children who don't want to avail of the RE education provided in a school.

But it is very much a subject area, the school is obliged to provide it, they are fulfilling their obligation to the NCCA by doing so. They then follow the RE curriculum set out for their ethos - Learn Together, AliveO, Follow Me etc. That's explicitly written out in that document, the one you just linked, for them to do.

So yes, it is mentioned, numerous times, which is most definitely not what you said. So yes, your statement is wrong.

edit: ah, I see someone made the point before me!

Gerry T · 10-09-2014 1:26pm

GreeBo wrote: »

....The Catholic school didnt exclude her because she is not Catholic, in fact the school didnt even know.
How was the teacher expected to know that the child wasnt to be taught Catholicism?
Your argument about the church and property etc is irrelevant to this discussion and just anti-Catholic schools in general. (Which I dont necessarily disagree with btw)...

When the child declared they didn't believe, theat's when. It's not a "must decide" situation. The teacher can let the child off and take it up with the parent another day, say send a note home. But trying to argue and ram your opinion into a 7yr old, with threats is not the right thing to do. The school SHOULD NOT assume students will take RE, they should get parents written permission. It's not up to the parents.

GreeBo wrote: »

...What would your approach be if your childs mind was opened and they decided that learning Irish was bull****?

I would explain that it's a compulsory subject unless you have an exemption (say being dyslexic) so unfortunately they have to do Irish and should accept that and get on with it while at school.

Dades · 10-09-2014 1:27pm

GreeBo wrote: »

What would your approach be if your childs mind was opened and they decided that learning Irish was bull****?

You don't need to pass religion to get into college.

Gerry T · 10-09-2014 1:34pm

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

No...I'll still find your statement wrong. I know the curriculum.

Page 70 of that document, chapter 6 on curriculum implementation.
There's a specific guideline in there for religious instruction time.

Page 28 talks about the centrality of the Christian tradition in Ireland, and diversity of beliefs today.

Page 40 recognises religion as a curriculum area and says that a curriculum for religion is the responsibility of the separate Church authorities (or ET etc). Page 58 goes into more detail on that. It also talks about providing alternatives for children who don't want to avail of the RE education provided in a school.

But it is very much a subject area, the school is obliged to provide it, they are fulfilling their obligation to the NCCA by doing so. They then follow the RE curriculum set out for their ethos - Learn Together, AliveO, Follow Me etc. That's explicitly written out in that document, the one you just linked, for them to do.

So yes, it is mentioned, numerous times, which is most definitely not what you said. So yes, your statement is wrong.

edit: ah, I see someone made the point before me!

I did a reply to that, see post 591. I had searched the word religion, not religious. So yes religion is in the doc, and I find it shocking how the formal education system is so wrapped up in the church.
My own feeling is that will change over time, but that's another debate !

Cabaal · 10-09-2014 1:39pm

Dades wrote: »

You don't need to pass religion to get into college.

You don't need to do Irish as a subject either to get into college

Orion · 10-09-2014 1:41pm

You do for NUI

For entry to all degrees, English, Irish, and four other subjects in the Leaving Certificate (GCE/GCSE or other acceptable qualification) are required.

Language requirements for matriculation: exemptions Irish

Generally speaking, anybody applying to an NUI institution who was born and had all their education in the Republic of Ireland must present Irish (achieving at least Grade D at Ordinary Level) for Matriculation purposes.

shruikan2553 · 10-09-2014 1:43pm

Dades wrote: »

You don't need to pass religion to get into college.

This makes me wonder. College and work manages fine by not having anything to do with religion and yet for some reason there is something important about having the children segregated over 1 class. Sure English, Irish, maths, science and history are all the same but let's build separate schools for one class. How do adults manage to learn about religion.

Cabaal · 10-09-2014 1:49pm

Orion wrote: »

You do for NUI

Oh No!
:pac:

Cabaal · 10-09-2014 1:53pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

This makes me wonder. College and work manages fine by not having anything to do with religion and yet for some reason there is something important about having the children segregated over 1 class. Sure English, Irish, maths, science and history are all the same but let's build separate schools for one class. How do adults manage to learn about religion.

Don't forget that more often then not it was also the same schools that felt the need to split girls and boys into separate schools.

Even years ago where they had no choice to have a second school they'd split the male/females into separate sides of the classroom

I've been to one school where the school yard had a big wall through it which separated the girls from the boys....even though they all sat in the one classroom.

The wall was about 8 foot high so no chance of even trying to talk to each other outside,

All very odd stuff, when you think about.
I feel sorry for people that thought what they were doing was a good thing,

Cabaal · 10-09-2014 1:55pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm not sure what argument you are making. What has gay got to do with it? Its not a "straight" school.

My point being some posters here are claiming that people should keep within the catholic ethos,

A students or teacher for that matter being gay is very much against the catholic ethos given that the pope called gay people unnatural.

So its all very well to claim "stay within ethos" but the reality is that ethos very much discriminates and teaches hate towards our fellow species. So much for the message of peace and love in the Alive-O books.

lukesmom · 10-09-2014 2:15pm

I agree with her going to the masses and seeing what happens I just think she could learn also in the RE classes in the classroom instead of being excluded. She might actually enjoy it is all. 7 is very young to make up your mind. I'm not trying to argue.

Daughter forced to believe in God

Comments