is Crossfit ok for building a lot of muscle?

fret_wimp2 · 23-07-2014 11:18am #1

I have been attending crossfit style gym for the past 2 years.
In that time i have seen massive improvments and gains, so I'm not for one second saying crossfit does not work.
I went from 53kg to 63kg in that time, while significantly reducing my overall body fat ratio to sub 10% meaning my body composition changed for the better.

The problem im facing now is that i have hit a wall in gaining muscle mass. My question is:
Although crossfit is amazing for fitness levels, getting toned & losing fat, would time be better spent lifting very heavy things in a regular gym weight room if my goal is to increase muscle mass ( without putting on excess fat!)

For anyone interested a highlevel breakdown of workouts and diet is below:

Age/gender: Male, late 20's

mobility/strength: this is various stretches, intersperced with gymnastic moves like bar/ring muscle up's, handstand walks, handstand pushups, weighted pullups
Strength: squatting, snatching, clean & jerk
WOD: High cardio ( sometimes heavy also) workout, rarely lasts more than 15 minutes.

Diet:
Ive struggled with this over the years but im happy with it right now, but not adverse to trying new things either. I generally get about 2700-3000cal per day. Daily the diet is like:
Protein: 240g+. Mainly baked/roast chicken. whey first thing in morning, after workout and casein before bed.
Carbs: varies between 150 - 300g per day, heavy days getting more. Sources are mainly oats and fruit. large yoghurt after the gym also ( trying to cut back on recovery shakes)
Fat: between 50-100g (depending on carbs). Almonds(flour and whole), nuts, fish oils, coconut oil and eggs mainly.

Hanley · 23-07-2014 11:20am

Have you tried eating more and seeing what happens?

Doug Cartel · 23-07-2014 11:29am

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

would time be better spent lifting very heavy things in a regular gym weight room if my goal is to increase muscle mass

Well, yes if you have a very specific goal then using a program which targets them specifically is going to be better than using one that is broad.

Now this is the real question - are your goals really that specific? Is putting on mass all you care about and do you want to train that at the expense of everything else?

fret_wimp2 · 23-07-2014 11:32am

Have you tried eating more and seeing what happens?

I did. I started putting on a fair bit of belly fat. I assume it goes on all over but i could notice it on my abdomen.

Initially i tried kenetica oatgain, but that increased fat very quickly.
I then tried simply adding more whole milk. Didnt increase fat as quickly as oat gain, but it still added more fat than i was happy with.

My body is slight by design, same as my whole family so I think i will always have a difficult time increasing muscle mass.

Im not a large framed guy by design I work out that I will need less calories than a guy of 80-90kg, so based on various articles I figured my cal's per day at 2700 - 3000 & macro breakdown would help me reach my goals,and they did in leaning up, losing fat.

If your advising to give the extra calories another go I'm more than happy to try it again for a month, but im not sure what will be different to produce different results this time around.

fret_wimp2 · 23-07-2014 11:36am

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Well, yes if you have a very specific goal then using a program which targets them specifically is going to be better than using one that is broad.

Now this is the real question - are your goals really that specific? Is putting on mass all you care about and do you want to train that at the expense of everything else?

No, my goals are not that specific. I enjoy crossfit, competing with myself and others, finding my limits and being fit. Being fit, healthy and increasing mobility was always goal #1. thats a moving goal but i am always improving and as i get better i move the posts further away.

(here's where it gets a little metrosexual!)
goal #2 was to fill out a T-Shirt better. Some stores like RiverIsland do an XS which really helps show that I am very lean, but not skin and bones. But what dude wants to have to buy an XS t shirt? and every tshirt, regardless of size can do with the sleves being filled out a bit more.

Hanley · 23-07-2014 11:48am

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

I did. I started putting on a fair bit of belly fat. I assume it goes on all over but i could notice it on my abdomen.

Initially i tried kenetica oatgain, but that increased fat very quickly.
I then tried simply adding more whole milk. Didnt increase fat as quickly as oat gain, but it still added more fat than i was happy with.

My body is slight by design, same as my whole family so I think i will always have a difficult time increasing muscle mass.

Im not a large framed guy by design I work out that I will need less calories than a guy of 80-90kg, so based on various articles I figured my cal's per day at 2700 - 3000 & macro breakdown would help me reach my goals,and they did in leaning up, losing fat.

If your advising to give the extra calories another go I'm more than happy to try it again for a month, but im not sure what will be different to produce different results this time around.

If you try eating better quality food and not high sugar junk I'd anticipate your results would be quite different.

fret_wimp2 · 23-07-2014 11:53am

Hanley wrote: »

If you try eating better quality food and not high sugar junk I'd anticipate your results would be quite different.

I concede on the kenetica but wholemilk, thats not high sugar junk?
You know what your talking about though so for the next month il try to hit 3300-3500 cal per day via extra nuts, sweet potato, veg & fruit, and see what happens.

Appreciate the advice, thanks.

Hanley · 23-07-2014 12:07pm

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

I concede on the kenetica but wholemilk, thats not high sugar junk?
You know what your talking about though so for the next month il try to hit 3300-3500 cal per day via extra nuts, sweet potato, veg & fruit, and see what happens.

Appreciate the advice, thanks.

Milk is crazy high in sugar. Most people don't digest it particularly well and end up fat as fook off it.

Unless you're rich froning...

...or taking a boat load of steroids.

dylbert · 23-07-2014 12:21pm

Have you asked your coach about tailoring a program to suit your goals?

generic2012 · 23-07-2014 1:09pm

Eating massively more than your requirements when already put on most of the muscle you ever will doesn't work. You say you have a small frame and put on 10kg of muscle, eating loads only helps when you have the potential to put on large amounts of muscle very fast and there is a risk of lack of calories being the rate limiting step in that process, ie a novice that doesn't realise the benefits of food. I think specificity of training is your issue.

I don't know much about crossfit but I don't think it's designed for increases in muscle mass, and if it is it's badly designed. Just pick a program that's designed to put on muscle.

If you gave your lift numbers for squat and deadlift (bench if you do it?) it could help people figure out where you are in terms of potential muscle gains too....

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 23-07-2014 1:20pm

Hanley wrote: »

Milk is crazy high in sugar. Most people don't digest it particularly well and end up fat as fook off it.

Unless you're rich froning...

...or taking a boat load of steroids.

Or?????

fret_wimp2 · 23-07-2014 1:34pm

dylbert wrote: »

Have you asked your coach about tailoring a program to suit your goals?

Yep, i was prescribed the "drink lots of milk and eat sweet potato" diet. I started to get fat.

If you gave your lift numbers for squat and deadlift (bench if you do it?) it could help people figure out where you are in terms of potential muscle gains too...

Current body weight is 63 kg.

High Bar Back Squat - PB of 130kg 2 months ago. dialled it back to allow hamstring injury to heal. back up to 110kg x 3 as of yesterday.

Clean & Clean & Jerk: 80kg pb. Generally max out at 72.5kg in a non pb training session.

Snatch: 60kg PB, Generally max out at 52.5 in a non PB training session.

Deadlift: 120kg. Have not deadlifted in quite a while as i had major issues with hamstring and hip flexors. I generally avoid deadlifting as i dont like missing 2-3 days of training after.

Bench: Not done in a crossfit style gym. I have asked but the request was not given any attention.

generic2012 · 23-07-2014 1:46pm

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Yep, i was prescribed the "drink lots of milk and eat sweet potato" diet. I started to get fat.

Current body weight is 63 kg.

High Bar Back Squat - PB of 130kg 2 months ago. dialled it back to allow hamstring injury to heal. back up to 110kg x 3 as of yesterday.

Clean & Clean & Jerk: 80kg pb. Generally max out at 72.5kg in a non pb training session.

Snatch: 60kg PB, Generally max out at 52.5 in a non PB training session.

Deadlift: 120kg. Have not deadlifted in quite a while as i had major issues with hamstring and hip flexors. I generally avoid deadlifting as i dont like missing 2-3 days of training after.

Bench: Not done in a crossfit style gym. I have asked but the request was not given any attention.

A simple 5x5 program has a lot to offer you so! Twice a week would do but three would be better. Keep it simple - two workouts - A and B. A could be bench, squat and pull ups/rows (pull-ups could be better suited to crossfit?), B could be OHP, deadlift and squat (less sets on squats here). 5x5s, I think, want 1 set of 5 deadlifts, but at your deadlift level 3 sets of 5 would be doable and beneficial. Just alternate workouts - A,B,A,B,A,B ad infinitum - so if you do it 3 times a week you'll do 2 A workouts the first week and 2 B workouts the next. Add weight whenever you can without comprising form too much.

EDIT: Big boy pull ups not cross fit ones!

fret_wimp2 · 23-07-2014 1:49pm

generic2012 wrote: »

A simple 5x5 program has a lot to offer you so! Twice a week would do but three would be better. Keep it simple - two workouts - A and B. A could be bench, squat and pull ups/rows (pull-ups could be better suited to crossfit?), B could be OHP, deadlift and squat (less sets on squats here). 5x5s, I think, want 1 set of 5 deadlifts, but at your deadlift level 3 sets of 5 would be doable and beneficial. Just alternate workouts - A,B,A,B,A,B ad infinitum - so if you do it 3 times a week you'll do 2 A workouts the first week and 2 B workouts the next. Add weight whenever you can without comprising form too much.

EDIT: Big boy pull ups not cross fit ones!

My max effort pullups are currently 6x strict (regulary "big boy" pullups) with added 20kg weight. 15+ strict pullups with no additional weight so i may have to try adding a little more weight.

Il try a 5x5 program also for the next month and see what the results are along with eating more decent foods. Thanks!

generic2012 · 23-07-2014 1:56pm

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

My max effort pullups are currently 6x strict (regulary "big boy" pullups) with added 20kg weight. 15+ strict pullups with no additional weight so i may have to try adding a little more weight.

Il try a 5x5 program also for the next month and see what the results are along with eating more decent foods. Thanks!

You're strong so! Your lifts should fly up! Best of luck

Hanley · 23-07-2014 1:59pm

Alora Mango Prune wrote: »

Or?????

Them CrossFit lawyers tho.

Cuddlesworth · 23-07-2014 2:09pm

Alora Mango Prune wrote: »

Or?????

You seem positive. He is only pushing 85 kilos at the moment and has what I can only describe as machine like technique in everything he does. Genetically that guy is a freak.

Is pushing 2 times yours bodyweight in compound exercises bad? Is there much point in hammering down calories when your body is close to natural limits? Honest question here, not trolling.

Hanley · 23-07-2014 2:17pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You seem positive. He is only pushing 85 kilos at the moment and has what I can only describe as machine like technique in everything he does. Genetically that guy is a freak.

Is pushing 2 times yours bodyweight in compound exercises bad? Is there much point in hammering down calories when your body is close to natural limits? Honest question here, not trolling.

2x bodyweight? The dude cleans damn near 2x bodyweight and snatches a **** ton too.

Add in the insane amount of work he apparently does, and the condition he holds year round and it's no surprise people ask questions.

Could he just be a freak? sure.

Could he be on? sure.

Will drug use become more and more pervasive in CrossFit competition? Yup. Just like every other mass participation sport with prize money and fame on the line!

dylbert · 23-07-2014 2:24pm

Hanley wrote: »

Just like every other mass participation sport with prize money and fame on the line!

Not to mention how little testing is done in crossfit

generic2012 · 23-07-2014 2:30pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Is there much point in hammering down calories when your body is close to natural limits? Honest question here, not trolling.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html - a good read.

Muscle growth isn't linear so the more you have the less you can gain in a given time. When you start off lifting you can pack loads on so you should take advantage of this and give yourself lots of calories to gain as much as you can as quick as you can. If you've been lifting so long that you that you can only put on half a kg of muscle in a year eating 500 calories above your maintenance every day is pointless, but if your a beginner it mightn't be enough!

I remember reading a study that found advanced lifters could get away with less protein (per kg of BW) than beginners. It was argued that this was because the body gets better at processing protein as you eat more of it but it could well be simply because less muscle being built means less need for protein.

generic2012 · 23-07-2014 2:30pm

dylbert wrote: »

Not to mention how little testing is done in crossfit

I hope you don't mean in their gyms!!?

Cuddlesworth · 23-07-2014 2:55pm

Hanley wrote: »

2x bodyweight? The dude cleans damn near 2x bodyweight and snatches a **** ton too.

Add in the insane amount of work he apparently does, and the condition he holds year round and it's no surprise people ask questions.

Could he just be a freak? sure.

Could he be on? sure.

Will drug use become more and more pervasive in CrossFit competition? Yup. Just like every other mass participation sport with prize money and fame on the line!

I meant the OP when I asked the 2x question. As for Froning, I'd like to believe otherwise. But I suppose its hard to look at any athlete now days and think they are not taking something.

Theresalwaysone · 23-07-2014 3:04pm

Wasnt Froning an ex baseball player in college?

Defo a juicer. Defo.

dylbert · 23-07-2014 3:08pm

generic2012 wrote: »

I hope you don't mean in their gyms!!?

I meant that elite crossfit athletes are not subject to random drugs testing.

LuckyLloyd · 23-07-2014 3:50pm

Do you train in CFI by any chance (I ask because it was 3rep max squat for strength yesterday)?

In any case the general programming for the Crossfit side of the house in CFI sounds similar to what you're doing. I'm not sure it's optimal for building large amounts of upper body mass, though it is a great general program (as you say yourself). A lot of the guys down there who've stuck the program out for a long time look great and are in superb shape over a number of metrics but very few have a 'big' (for want of a better word) upper body physique. You could argue the whys and wherefores of that and it may not all be down to the programming, but the results are the results.

Current body weight is 63 kg.

High Bar Back Squat - PB of 130kg 2 months ago. dialled it back to allow hamstring injury to heal. back up to 110kg x 3 as of yesterday.

Clean & Clean & Jerk: 80kg pb. Generally max out at 72.5kg in a non pb training session.

Snatch: 60kg PB, Generally max out at 52.5 in a non PB training session.

Deadlift: 120kg. Have not deadlifted in quite a while as i had major issues with hamstring and hip flexors. I generally avoid deadlifting as i dont like missing 2-3 days of training after.

Bench: Not done in a crossfit style gym. I have asked but the request was not given any attention.

You seem quite strong tbh, fair play. Squat in excess of 2x bodyweight; Deadlift ~2x; Snatch 1x; Clean and Jerk ~1.3. All decent numbers. I'd probably disagree with some of the advice above in terms of doing a general 5 x 5. Your squat programming is obviously working very well, and I'd imagine you wouldn't want to drop your oly lifting or metcon ability.

Take a day off Crossfit once a week to begin with and add in Strict Pressing, Bench Pressing, Horizontal rows (barbell / dumbells) and progressive strict pull up work. Can do all of that in any standard gym and get it all done in not much more than an hour. I imagine you push press the odd time, but rarely if ever strict press. No bench press and, while you clean and snatch and do pull ups from time to time, I'd say you'd benefit from progressive and focussed horizontal and vertical pulling.

Basically, add in some specific upper body strength work, keep everything else the same and see if it makes a difference. I bet if you stick at it for a period while eating at a small surplus of good food you'll notice a positive difference.

generic2012 · 23-07-2014 4:01pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You seem quite strong tbh, fair play. Squat in excess of 2x bodyweight; Deadlift ~2x; Snatch 1x; Clean and Jerk ~1.3. All decent numbers. I'd probably disagree with some of the advice above in terms of doing a general 5 x 5.

Forgot about OP's bodyweight! I'll have to agree with LuckyLloyd here and retract the thing about 5x5. Sorry OP!

Slobbery · 23-07-2014 4:08pm

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Yep, i was prescribed the "drink lots of milk and eat sweet potato" diet. I started to get fat.

Current body weight is 63 kg.

High Bar Back Squat - PB of 130kg 2 months ago. dialled it back to allow hamstring injury to heal. back up to 110kg x 3 as of yesterday.

Clean & Clean & Jerk: 80kg pb. Generally max out at 72.5kg in a non pb training session.

Snatch: 60kg PB, Generally max out at 52.5 in a non PB training session.

Deadlift: 120kg. Have not deadlifted in quite a while as i had major issues with hamstring and hip flexors. I generally avoid deadlifting as i dont like missing 2-3 days of training after.

Bench: Not done in a crossfit style gym. I have asked but the request was not given any attention.

I was perscribed the milk and sweet potato diet 3500Cals a day and got fat as well, seemed like a big waste of time however i did get strong

kevpants · 23-07-2014 4:08pm

If you're fitting into XS T-Shirt's it's time to step away from the Crossfit before it's too late.

Hanley wrote: »

Milk is crazy high in sugar. Most people don't digest it particularly well and end up fat as fook off it.

Unless you're rich froning...

...or taking a boat load of steroids.

How many "..."s is a safe distance to prevent Crossfit Litigation AMRAP?

Cuddlesworth · 23-07-2014 4:14pm

kevpants wrote: »

If you're fitting into XS T-Shirt's it's time to step away from the Crossfit before it's too late.

You missed the "Broahhh" at the end.

kevpants · 23-07-2014 4:16pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You missed the "Broahhh" at the end.

Has the "o" reappeared in Braaahh? I can't keep up anymore. It was Bruh for a while.

dylbert · 23-07-2014 4:28pm

This just shows the need for crossfit gyms to start offering their members more choice, the standard crossfit one program fits all only suits some people.

is Crossfit ok for building a lot of muscle?

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