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Tony Blair - Iraq, Syria and the Middle East.

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    #152
    Conas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    wes wrote: »

    Also, what right did anyone have to give Palestinian land to Zionists? After all it was Nazi Germany who murdered 6 millions Jews, so why should the Palestinian be made to pay for someone else's crimes?

    Where is your evidence to support the claim the Nazi's murdered 6 million Jews?

    They were wanting a Jewish state since WW1. It was nothing to do with escaping the Holocaust.


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    #153
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Conas wrote: »
    Where is your evidence to support the claim the Nazi's murdered 6 million Jews?

    Its a well documented and established fact...........
    Conas wrote: »
    They were wanting a Jewish state since WW1. It was nothing to do with escaping the Holocaust.

    Zionists wanted a state since the 1800's originating with Herzl. Before the Holocaust, Zionists were rightly considered nutters.


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    #154
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Nodin wrote: »
    There is no evidence to say that ISIS was directly and deliberately funded by the US. They've been quite wary of who they've been involved with thus far in Syria, and - not being entirely thick - are unlikely to aid people who attack US interests now or in the future.
    Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein just had a good laugh at that in hell.

    1) Can you briefly explain this process which ensures that extremist groups aren't being armed by the US (taxpayer)?
    2) How do you explain the US's alliance with Al Qaeda affiliate the LIFG?
    3) Can you explain why the US hasn't been able to prevent their protectorates in the Gulf monarchies to cease support for ISIS, Nusra and the like?


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    #155
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    realweirdo wrote: »
    Complete garbage. From Israel's point of view, they have no allies in the Syrian conflict on any side. Their air attacks were on Hezbollah targets inside Syria, because they feared they would get their hands on some of Assads missiles and/or chemical weapons to use at a later stage against Israel.

    It would be in Israel's interest to see a stable Syria with either Assad in charge or the moderate oppostion. Having thousands of ISIS fighters on their border is not in their interest.
    ... And surely best of all for Israel is a destroyed and balkanised former enemy formerly known as Syria?


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    #156
    cruasder777
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    ... And surely best of all for Israel is a destroyed and balkanised former enemy formerly known as Syria?


    Correct Assad supports Hezbollah.


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    #157
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Bin Laden (..........)and the like?

    'can you prove there is no invisible pink unicorn in the room?'


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    #158
    Knob Longman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 326 ✭✭Knob Longman


    wes wrote: »
    Its a well documented and established fact...........



    Zionists wanted a state since the 1800's originating with Herzl. Before the Holocaust, Zionists were rightly considered nutters.

    Jews are a victim of Zionism too. Some of the top Zionists are not even Jews.


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    #159
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    wes wrote: »

    Also, what right did anyone have to give Palestinian land to Zionists? After all it was Nazi Germany who murdered 6 millions Jews, so why should the Palestinian be made to pay for someone else's crimes?

    Germany had a pre-war agreement with Palestine to take jews in, the Haavara agreement (signed by the ZFG, the anglo-palestinian bank (under jewish agency suprprise surprise!) and the german economic authority).

    Im guessing after the war, it seemed like a continuing solution.


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    #160
    Conas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    Knob Longman wrote: »
    Jews are a victim of Zionism too. Some of the top Zionists are not even Jews.

    This is true alright. Zionists are really Atheists, who stole the identity of the Jewish people. But when you look at what's happening in the middle east, Israel are the only ones who will gain big time. Why is it that trouble, violence, and war follows them everywhere.
    wes wrote: »
    Its a well documented and established fact...........

    It is a well documentated fact that Jews were responsible for the Holodomor in Ukraine, in which over 7 million people were killed. Hitler was fighting a war against three superpowers. I've been to Auschwitz. They have an alleged gas chamber on the end of the tour, but that chamber was created after the war. There is a chimney at the back that isn't even connected to the building as it was built by the Soviets AFTER the war. All the hair you see on the tour, was done because of Typhus, so they shaved off their hair to stop the spread of it. Zyklon B was actually used to disinfect the clothes. Movies, and the clever use of images, can make you believe anything. Doesn't necessary mean everything is established fact. Two sides to every story.

    MOD: See below MOD WARNING.


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    #161
    BuilderPlumber
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    To be honest, it makes me sick to see the double standards we have in this world. Make no mistake about it, the individuals I will list below are all evil people but their treatment is VERY different.

    Look at how Slobodan Milosevic, Saddam Hussein, Rolf Harris, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Jimmy Savile, Bashar al-Assad and Colonel Gaddafi were/are treated and viewed by the West's governments and media. On the other hand, look at how the likes of Bush 2, Blair and Rumsfeld get away with everything.

    Also, we are lead to believe that the nuclear bombing of Japan and the bombing of Dresden were ok in WW2 and that only the Germans, Italians and Japanese did wrong (Stalin's war crimes were only highlighted by the West much later when this former Western ally became a Western enemy: exactly the same thing happened later with a certain other dictator called Saddam!!).

    It was ok for Saddam to use chemical weapons against Iran in the 1980s and the gasing of Kurds was given a few harsh words by the West. But Saddam was and remained a Western ally up until August 1990.

    You don't have to be a lover of Saddam to condemn the Iraq war. Saddam was an unpleasant and troublesome dictator for sure. But a lot of questions remain: Would the Middle East be better if he was still alive and he/his sons in power? I believe not. The Arab spring would happen anyway and Iraq would see huge trouble as sanctions impoverished it. Also, Saddam never did 9/11, never had the weapons he was supposed to have in 2003, etc. The world's economy would be healthier but again while the Iraq war caused a lot of the current economic situations, reckless greed was going to catch itself out anyway. The Iraq war was exactly the type of extreme risk-taking agenda we saw in the 1990s and 2000s so-called 'free market capitalist' extremism. Clearly, the world would have been better off without both the Iraq war and without dictators like Saddam. But if Saddam was not toppled in 2003, it would probably have happened in 2011.

    Unfortunately, the Iraq war, 9/11 and 'Islamic' extremism was a problem that predated Blair and unfortunately was courted by the West. Blair is as much as the Saddams and the rest a product of this toxic environment.

    Some people point to the year 1979 as the start of the black period of the Middle East. True, it was not a very pleasant year: Havoc in Iran, Saddam comes to power in Iraq, Israel v Palestine and Lebanon conflicts at their height, civil war in Afghanistan/USSR invasion to follow. More say the formation of Israel was the start of all the trouble. And others say it was all about the rise of the likes of Egypt's Nasser who was the original Saddam and the godfather of all Arab nationalists. But again all these events have their roots in earlier conflicts going back to WW2 and WW1. But the Arab v Persian, Sunni v Shia and Christian v Jew v Muslim thing goes way back to the foundation of these very states and creeds. Any 'peace' is uneasy and events like the Iran-Iraq war, various Arab v West clashes and the USSR invasion of Afghanistan were steeped in that history.


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    #162
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Conas wrote: »
    It is a well documentated fact that Jews were responsible for the Holodomor in Ukraine, in which over 7 million people were killed. Hitler was fighting a war against three superpowers. I've been to Auschwitz. They have an alleged gas chamber on the end of the tour, but that chamber was created after the war. There is a chimney at the back that isn't even connected to the building as it was built by the Soviets AFTER the war. All the hair you see on the tour, was done because of Typhus, so they shaved off their hair to stop the spread of it. Zyklon B was actually used to disinfect the clothes. Movies, and the clever use of images, can make you believe anything.
    MOD WARNING:
    This is the Politics forum. Such claims as these made by you were more appropriate for the Conspiracy Theories Forum, not Politics or its 7 subforums.


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    #163
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Azwaldo55 wrote: »
    Tony Blair has inevitably come under fire from the usual suspects since the recent upsurge in Sunni Islamist extremist violence in Iraq which has led to the collapse of several divisions of the Iraqi Army, the fall of major cities and bloody massacres by vengeful jihadist fanatics.

    The anti-war Left would have you believe that if the 2003 invasion had not occurred miraculously Iraq presumably still ruled by the blood stained tyrant Saddam Hussein and his equally psychopathic sons would be a sea of calm. :D
    They apparently believe the 2011 Arab Spring which laid low thugs such as Gaddaffi and Mubarak and has led to a cataclysmic civil war in Syria would not be mirrored in Iraq.

    Blair has pointed out the obvious:



    He succinctly describes the roots of the problems in the Middle East and the challenges we all face:



    Among the Western public and particularly among the political Left plagued by imperial guilt there is an assumption that if the West does not intervene in the Middle East there will be no consequences for us.:rolleyes:

    Tony Blair details the three approaches that have all has negative consequences:



    Blair lays out in stark terms what the deniers among the Left refuse to recognize.



    So what is the solution?

    Fight Islamic extremism! But Blair claims with justification that the left and in particular the media have their heads in the sand.



    Doubtless Blair will be shouted down and scorned by the usual suspects who will stick their fingers in their ears, shut their eyes tight and scream rather than up with a coherent policy toward the problems he has identified.:mad:

    If our discourse in the West is dominated by childish deniers and appeasers of Islam then we face a bleak future indeed just as their counterparts in the mid twentieth century who appeased extremism saw their intentions to avoid war at all costs cruelly blow up their face.

    http://www.tonyblairoffice.org/news/entry/iraq-syria-and-the-middle-east-an-essay-by-tony-blair/

    So it's ok he lied then...?


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    #164
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    realweirdo wrote: »
    You have absolutely no clue about the Syrian conflict do you or who the various factions are??

    If you were bothered which you aren't, you might know that the moderate FSA if there is such a thing have been battling hard against ISIS as well as Assad. ISIS meanwhile are mainly interested in fighting the regular FSA and hardly ever attack Assad. Likewise Assad rarely attacks ISIS except occassionally. ISIS and the regular FSA used to be on the same side but are now sworn enemies.

    As an example:

    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2014/06/21/ISIS-executes-three-Syrian-rebel-officers.html

    I do agree however that Obama has done much to help the rise of ISIS, but not just him, I include Merkel and all the other anti-intervenionist leaders, who have sat back and allowed ISIS become a major force in the middle east.

    A year or two ago ISIS could have been neutralised by the regular FSA had they been properly funded and armed. Now ISIS are well on the way to becoming a state in the middle east with one of the most powerful armies. It seems they now have unstoppable momentum.

    As long as religion is a major influence in the middle east, the region will remain a hellhole much as Europe was until the Enlightenment.

    It is a fact ISIS are trained out of jordan and Qatar mainly I believe.. Of course with the Saudis bankrolling it.... But also other regions.. And they are US/Brittish trained... So are not some rag tag band of warriors that have popped up out of nowhere.. If people believe bull reporting that nobody seen masses of these well trained well armed army massing together after training lots of them.... that's what I find laughable


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    #165
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Nodin wrote: »
    There is no evidence to say that ISIS was directly and deliberately funded by the US. They've been quite wary of who they've been involved with thus far in Syria, and - not being entirely thick - are unlikely to aid people who attack US interests now or in the future.

    Is there no...?

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9290FI20130310?irpc=932


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    #166
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Is there no...?

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9290FI20130310?irpc=932


    There's nothing in your link concerning ISIS fighters.
    And they are US/Brittish trained

    A source?


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    #167
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Nodin wrote: »
    There's nothing in your link concerning ISIS fighters.



    A source?

    Where did they come from and who trained them then...?


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    #168
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    http://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-trained-isis-at-secret-jordan-base/5387532

    http://rt.com/op-edge/168064-isis-terrorism-usa-cia-war/


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    #169
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,460 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-trained-isis-at-secret-jordan-base/5387532

    http://rt.com/op-edge/168064-isis-terrorism-usa-cia-war/

    In fairness to the US those articles make it seem as if thy were intentionally training ISIS. That was unlikely to be the case. We have known that states such as the US have been facilitating the training of rebels long before ISIS were even a major force in Syria, and what has happened is that a lot of fighters who were trained as part of moderate rebel groups have now gone on to join ISIS as their own brigades become insignificant as the conflict progresses.

    What the articles do demonstrate though is the ridiculous way in which the US and other states are approaching the Syria conflict. They say that they want to provide even more arms and training to 'moderate' rebel groups. However we already know that so called 'moderate' fighters are ending up in ISIS and that ISIS itself is easily overpowering moderate rebel groups - and seizing their US supplied weapons. So on the one hand you have the US saying that they have to arm moderate rebel groups to counter the ISIS threat, yet we already know that arming moderate rebel groups essentially arms ISIS.


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    #170
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    In fairness to the US those articles make it seem as if thy were intentionally training ISIS. That was unlikely to be the case. We have known that states such as the US have been facilitating the training of rebels long before ISIS were even a major force in Syria, and what has happened is that a lot of fighters who were trained as part of moderate rebel groups have now gone on to join ISIS as their own brigades become insignificant as the conflict progresses.

    What the articles do demonstrate though is the ridiculous way in which the US and other states are approaching the Syria conflict. They say that they want to provide even more arms and training to 'moderate' rebel groups. However we already know that so called 'moderate' fighters are ending up in ISIS and that ISIS itself is easily overpowering moderate rebel groups - and seizing their US supplied weapons. So on the one hand you have the US saying that they have to arm moderate rebel groups to counter the ISIS threat, yet we already know that arming moderate rebel groups essentially arms ISIS.
    Agreed here, mostly...
    I don't think anyone in their right mind would think the west can invade the region. Make a mess of it.. Train the new lot...And then not expect these people to end up turning against the west..
    That's utter stupidity... And one doesn't need to be a mystic to be able to tell this would happen


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    #171
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Where did they come from and who trained them then...?


    You seem to be implying that they are either the product of the US or can't exist. This is nonsense.


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    #172
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-trained-isis-at-secret-jordan-base/5387532

    http://rt.com/op-edge/168064-isis-terrorism-usa-cia-war/


    Going off mainstream with two articles who repeat the content of the Reuters one, while using "sources" and editioralising to add in the US nonsense.


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    #173
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Nodin wrote: »
    You seem to be implying that they are either the product of the US or can't exist. This is nonsense.

    Product of the west.. And no, it's not nonscence.. Your thinking it's not... Is


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    #174
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Nodin wrote: »
    Going off mainstream with two articles who repeat the content of the Reuters one, while using "sources" and editioralising to add in the US nonsense.

    What are you talking about..? Are you really that blind are you..? Or just in denial..?


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    #175
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Product of the west.. And no, it's not nonscence.. Your thinking it's not... Is


    You've evidence they're a "product of the west"?


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    #176
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Nodin wrote: »
    You've evidence they're a "product of the west"?

    The articles I posted are well evidence enough.. Don't worry. I'm sure more will come out very shortly, and you can still keep pretending then too that they're not a product of the west...


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    #177
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    The articles I posted are well evidence enough.....

    No, they contain no facts that back up your assertion at all.


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    #178
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, they contain no facts that back up your assertion at all.

    It's just being reported for the craic I suppose..? Or it's misreporting..?


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    #179
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    It's just being reported for the craic I suppose..? Or it's misreporting..?


    It hasn't been reported by any reputable news organisation.


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    #180
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Nodin wrote: »
    It hasn't been reported by any reputable news organisation.

    Reuters...? Not reputable..?
    Keep digging mate


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    #181
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Reuters...? Not reputable..?
    Keep digging mate


    Where in the Reuters article does it state that the US are training ISIS? Quote the relevant section please.


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