Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

In one sentence, Enda Kenny exposes the whip system for the undemocratic joke it is

Options
  • 11-06-2014 3:59am
    #1
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭


    A political row has blown up over the banking enquiry, after a senator's absence led to the government parties (gasp!!!) losing their majority on the committee.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/government-must-have-majority-on-banking-inquiry-1.1827267
    Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin expressed outrage when Enda Kenny said the inquiry could not go ahead without a Government majority.
    Mr Kenny said that “in order for terms of reference to be adopted and for a mandate to be given the Government need to have a majority here and that matter is being considered now by the Senate”.
    He added: “Clearly the situation that applies at the moment mean that the Government don’t have a majority.”
    When Mr Martin intervened to insist the committee had been chosen, Mr Kenny said: “How do I know what the members will do?”
    He added: “The committee can’t adopt terms of reference unless you have a approval from the committee. How do I know what your members will do? I don’t know,” he said to Mr Martin.
    When the Fianna Fáil leader tried intervene again Ceann Comhairle Sean Barrett ruled him out of order and insisted he sit down.
    When Mr Martin refused the Dáil was suspended for 10 minutes.
    [Emphasis is mine]

    I'm not sure if Enda realizes the profound nature of these remarks. In one sentence, he has publicly exposed our current parliamentary system for the absolute sham that it is. I've been saying for a long time, as have others, that instead of the parliament being a check on the executive, as a parliamentary system was envisioned initially, it is instead an entirely irrelevant rubber stamp. One could abolish the Dail tomorrow morning and very little substantial change would be made to what laws actually end up on the statute books and what laws do not.

    It's high time we had a serious, high profile and determined national conversation about this. The situation is an absolute joke, and there are many things which could be done about it - from reform of Dail standing orders so as not to prioritize party members for speaking time, to a complete overhaul of how "government" is defined and how the cabinet is chosen, this ridiculous non representative non democracy can be fixed. But it won't happen until enough people are made aware of the current shambles and enough people get concerned about it.

    I'm not posting this because the nature of the current system should come as a surprise to anyone, I'm posting it because Enda Kenny has, probably unwittingly, publicly stated on the record how dictatorial this system is, and that gives us a prime opportunity for the kind of national debate we desperately need.

    Thoughts?
    Tagged:


«1

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    A political row has blown up over the banking enquiry, after a senator's absence led to the government parties (gasp!!!) losing their majority on the committee.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/government-must-have-majority-on-banking-inquiry-1.1827267


    [Emphasis is mine]

    I'm not sure if Enda realizes the profound nature of these remarks. In one sentence, he has publicly exposed our current parliamentary system for the absolute sham that it is. I've been saying for a long time, as have others, that instead of the parliament being a check on the executive, as a parliamentary system was envisioned initially, it is instead an entirely irrelevant rubber stamp. One could abolish the Dail tomorrow morning and very little substantial change would be made to what laws actually end up on the statute books and what laws do not.

    It's high time we had a serious, high profile and determined national conversation about this. The situation is an absolute joke, and there are many things which could be done about it - from reform of Dail standing orders so as not to prioritize party members for speaking time, to a complete overhaul of how "government" is defined and how the cabinet is chosen, this ridiculous non representative non democracy can be fixed. But it won't happen until enough people are made aware of the current shambles and enough people get concerned about it.

    I'm not posting this because the nature of the current system should come as a surprise to anyone, I'm posting it because Enda Kenny has, probably unwittingly, publicly stated on the record how dictatorial this system is, and that gives us a prime opportunity for the kind of national debate we desperately need.

    Thoughts?

    pigs will fly before people give enough of a shlt about anything to get off their fat arses here!! what you are saying is correct and I'm angry enough about the state of our government and lack of true democracy to stand along with you but we'll be pretty much on our own and will eventually run out of steam and go home defeated.


  • Options
    #3
    tracking
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭tracking


    Seems all EK is "sincerely" asking for and partners are mum is "Anything but a Planning Inquiry".

    Beggers the question, when seeking Office what he meant by "transparancy and accountabillity".


  • Options
    #4
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,479 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    This is why people should vote for Independent candidates. A vote on a whipped party candidate is a vote wasted. None of the parties will ever seriously reform the Dail - if you were Enda Kenny, would you order your TD drones to stop obeying you? If you were a TD drone would you ever dare disobey your boss on a point of constitutional principle?

    Happily, polls and indeed electoral results are demonstrating the increasing decline of the party vote and the increasing share of the Independant vote. Independants are the only real hope for reform in Ireland.


  • Options
    #5
    wow sierra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭wow sierra


    People are really angry about this. The Senate vote for their two Reps and Enda doesn't like it so he has the Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges look into it. Even when they say they can do nothing he still proceeds to overrule the democratic process and appoint two more Senators so he has his majority.

    You couldn't make it up. As someone said to me today - If they behave like that in the open, in the full glare of publicity, what is going on behind the scenes?

    Kenny doesn't allow debate in the Dáil and is assisted in this by the Ceann Comhairle, as the OP says. He personally attacks any member of the opposition who tries to make a point, rather than engaging in debate. He wields the Party whip in a way that makes Charlie Haughey look like a lamb. He knows he is safe in power as long as Labour don't pull the plug so he is happy to rule as a dictator.

    But his Banking Enquiry has ZERO credibility now - and if he thinks it has he is deluded.


  • Options
    #6
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,754 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Susan O'Keefe is the Taoiseach's yes man we have the confirmed today http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-adds-two-members-to-banking-inquiry-committee-1.1829876 she's no hero of old she dropped all her critical faculties when she joined labour a few years ago and has done nothing but be a labour party hq mouthpiece since.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    instead of the parliament being a check on the executive, as a parliamentary system was envisioned initially,

    Parliament is NOT envisaged as being a check on the government in the Westminster parliamentary system we use.

    Please stop using the American system as your template for how we govern ourselves when that is not the system we use.


  • Options
    #8
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Fianna Fail want Marc McSharry on the committee. McSharry's father is a director in Bank of Ireland and Irish Life and Permanent. A clear conflict of interest he'd be investigating his own father.


  • Options
    #9
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    View wrote: »
    Parliament is NOT envisaged as being a check on the government in the Westminster parliamentary system we use.

    Please stop using the American system as your template for how we govern ourselves when that is not the system we use.

    Well then what is it, and what's the point of it?
    And if parliament isn't the check on the cabinet, what is?


  • Options
    #10
    Lou.m
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,532 ✭✭✭Lou.m


    I am not so sure he is deluded. He knows the electorate.
    I'm not sure if Enda realizes the profound nature of these remarks. In one sentence, he has publicly exposed our current parliamentary system for the absolute sham that it is. I've been saying for a long time, as have others, that instead of the parliament being a check on the executive, as a parliamentary system was envisioned initially, it is instead an entirely irrelevant rubber stamp. One could abolish the Dail tomorrow morning and very little substantial change would be made to what laws actually end up on the statute books and what laws do not.

    No I think he does. I think the people know a govt of independents is going to be chaotic or is going to do deals left right and centre with FF and FG or they ARE ex FF and ex FG.

    Wow Sierra said.
    You couldn't make it up. As someone said to me today - If they behave like that in the open, in the full glare of publicity, what is going on behind the scenes?

    Kenny doesn't allow debate in the Dáil and is assisted in this by the Ceann Comhairle, as the OP says. He personally attacks any member of the opposition who tries to make a point, rather than engaging in debate. He wields the Party whip in a way that makes Charlie Haughey look like a lamb. He knows he is safe in power as long as Labour don't pull the plug so he is happy to rule as a dictator.

    But his Banking Enquiry has ZERO credibility now - and if he thinks it has he is deluded.

    I don't think the general public are aware of HOW bad it is. And those who do know are aware of how few real options to have in voting.

    I don't know where we will be in a few years time. He is getting progressively worse.


  • Options
    #11
    petronius
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    The promise of New Politics - what a bunch of Hypocrites we elect to office
    An Independent Inquiry must have a government majority so as it can not be truly independent
    Enda Control Freak Kenny destroys any vestige of the promise of new politics as he stacks the deck in the Banking Inquiry


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Well then what is it, and what's the point of it?
    And if parliament isn't the check on the cabinet, what is?

    A parliament is a legislature, there to pass, amend and reject legislation.

    The government is formed based on the Westminister systems' ideas of "supply" & "confidence". It must be capable of securing a majority within the parliament on budgets & legislation (in theory major pieces but the members of the Oireachtas seem to regard virtually every piece of legislation and vote as major in practise).

    Either parliament supplies a government with a majority for its programme or the government will be voted out of office fairly rapidly should parliament fail to do so on a near continuous basis.


  • Options
    #13
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    View wrote: »
    A parliament is a legislature, there to pass, amend and reject legislation.

    The government is formed based on the Westminister systems' ideas of "supply" & "confidence". It must be capable of securing a majority within the parliament on budgets & legislation (in theory major pieces but the members of the Oireachtas seem to regard virtually every piece of legislation and vote as major in practise).

    Either parliament supplies a government with a majority for its programme or the government will be voted out of office fairly rapidly should parliament fail to do so on a near continuous basis.

    Alright, well then if that's the case I'll amend my viewpoint from wanting to make our parliament work as intended, to wanting to change how it's intended to work and how it works. In the system you have described, there is effectively no real check on cabinet power, which is absurd. TDs should be more or less independent from the cabinet, otherwise what's the point of having them? You could abolish parliament, keep the cabinet, save ridiculous amounts of money, and broadly speaking the change to which laws actually end up getting passed would be fairly minimal.

    This system is toxic to democracy.


  • Options
    #14
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Alright, well then if that's the case I'll amend my viewpoint from wanting to make our parliament work as intended, to wanting to change how it's intended to work and how it works.

    Fair enough. Just remember though you need an alternative system to replace the current one (e.g. A presidential system).
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    In the system you have described, there is effectively no real check on cabinet power, which is absurd. TDs should be more or less independent from the cabinet,

    The Government is DEPENDENT on TDs for any majority it needs. TDs ARE independent of the Government, but CHOOSE to support or oppose it based on their political views.

    TDs are not all there to act as a permanent opposition to "check" the government. Such a government would fall very rapidly were that to happen.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    otherwise what's the point of having them?

    To act as legislators and for them to make their decisions on supporting or opposing legislation be it government proposal based or not.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    You could abolish parliament, keep the cabinet, save ridiculous amounts of money, and broadly speaking the change to which laws actually end up getting passed would be fairly minimal.

    You could but then you wouldn't have a parliamentary system of government.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    This system is toxic to democracy.

    The system is democracy and probably the most widely used democratic system at that.

    The voters in case you have missed it are not voting to change it, and seem to have little interest in considering doing so.

    Mind you there are definitely changes we should make to our current system as, for instance, the voting system "encourages" people to a vote for politicians because they are nice and/or local rather than because the voters agree with their policies.


  • Options
    #15
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    Kenny showed the country, democracy means nothing.


  • Options
    #16
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    View wrote: »
    Fair enough. Just remember though you need an alternative system to replace the current one (e.g. A presidential system).


    The system is democracy and probably the most widely used democratic system at that.

    The voters in case you have missed it are not voting to change it, and seem to have little interest in considering doing so.

    Mind you there are definitely changes we should make to our current system as, for instance, the voting system "encourages" people to a vote for politicians because they are nice and/or local rather than because the voters agree with their policies.

    How do you mean, we can only vote for what is presented to us, change outside that is not tolerated, protest is looked down upon or shut down and ignored. We are reliant on whats being offered, and before someone says, why doesnt someone present themselves as a candidate, its just not that straight forward.
    I dont think people are fully aware of how the system works and most people are too involved in their own lives, either managing to get by and make ends meet, or have no awareness of politics or interest.
    Education on how the system is supposed to work is needed for a start, a discussion on what needs to be changed as thats not even on the table from political parties, its been a long time since I believed we have democracy here.


  • Options
    #17
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭Good loser


    cerastes wrote: »
    How do you mean, we can only vote for what is presented to us, change outside that is not tolerated, protest is looked down upon or shut down and ignored. We are reliant on whats being offered, and before someone says, why doesnt someone present themselves as a candidate, its just not that straight forward.
    I dont think people are fully aware of how the system works and most people are too involved in their own lives, either managing to get by and make ends meet, or have no awareness of politics or interest.
    Education on how the system is supposed to work is needed for a start, a discussion on what needs to be changed as thats not even on the table from political parties, its been a long time since I believed we have democracy here.

    What are you talking about? We have a perfectly nomal political democracy working well here. All that's wrong with it ( if anything) is the intimidation/bullying generated by the electorate on the TDs. These run hither and thither trying to placate an electorate of wasters. Signs on more and more of that electorate is voting Independent. We get the Govt we deserve.


  • Options
    #18
    Satriale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,023 ✭✭✭Satriale


    Good loser wrote: »
    What are you talking about? We have a perfectly nomal political democracy working well here. All that's wrong with it ( if anything) is the intimidation/bullying generated by the electorate on the TDs. These run hither and thither trying to placate an electorate of wasters. Signs on more and more of that electorate is voting Independent. We get the Govt we deserve.


    http://www.thejournal.ie/stephen-donnelly-quits-banking-inquiry-1518386-Jun2014/

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/stephen-donnelly-why-i-will-not-take-part-in-this-banking-inquiry-30355013.html

    Perfectly normal democracy indeed, just as long as you can manipulate it to your ends.


  • Options
    #19
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    And they wonder why Independents are getting such a large vote?


  • Options
    #20
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,733 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    So your government can't go forward because some of your elected officials are sleeping in or scoffing off?

    As voters why arent you looking into their whereabouts and ascertaining why they arent doing the job you hired them to do?


  • Options
    #21
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    It's corruption and a contempt for the electorate pure and simple.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭Good loser


    It's a relief to have that political poser, Donnelly, off the committee - however it came about.

    The filling of the committee is democracy in action - it could only be done with the consent of the majority; that's what voting entails.

    The agreement before the botched vote was to have two from the Senate - Susan O Keefe and another. That is now the case.

    Anyway that whole enquiry is a waste of time and money.


  • Options
    #23
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    Good loser wrote: »
    It's a relief to have that political poser, Donnelly, off the committee - however it came about.

    The filling of the committee is democracy in action - it could only be done with the consent of the majority; that's what voting entails.

    The agreement before the botched vote was to have two from the Senate - Susan O Keefe and another. That is now the case.

    Anyway that whole enquiry is a waste of time and money.

    political poser??


  • Options
    #24
    The_Captain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    Absolutely pathetic behaviour from Enda. All he's managed to do here is to make himself look very very insecure while destroying the public's faith in the banking enquiry.


  • Options
    #25
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,464 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    The handling of the banking inquiry by the government is an absolute joke. The Taoiseach wants a majority to ensure that the inquiry only goes as far as the 2011 General Election despite many key decisions having being made after that by the current government.

    It should have always been an independent inquiry led by a panel of experts, most who are from outside the state to ensure impartiality.

    All of this farce is just another example of the government failing to implement the political reform that it promised, what a let down these last few years have been.


  • Options
    #26
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    It should have always been an independent inquiry led by a panel of experts, most who are from outside the state to ensure impartiality.

    absolutely

    regardless of whether it was a govt or opposition majority this inquiry would be a political football


  • Options
    #27
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    The_Captain wrote: »
    Absolutely pathetic behaviour from Enda. All he's managed to do here is to make himself look very very insecure while destroying the public's faith in the banking enquiry.

    Ursula Halligan sorted that, Flowerpotgate.:D:D


  • Options
    #28
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    The_Captain wrote: »
    Absolutely pathetic behaviour from Enda. All he's managed to do here is to make himself look very very insecure while destroying the public's faith in the banking enquiry.

    Spot on. And Noonan is on the air this evening describing the failure of government senators to show up for a vote as a "Fianna Fáil stroke". How did that work? Did they kidnap Susan O'Keefe?

    In my view, all the non-government senators (and any government senators who have any self respect) should follow Stephen Donnelly's example and resign from the committee.


  • Options
    #29
    Awkward Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    So the latest is Kenny is claiming that the coalition members have been removed from the party whip and they are acting independently on the committee. He is also calling for Donnelly to rejoin the committee.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-appeals-to-stephen-donnelly-to-rejoin-banking-inquiry-30357867.html

    Given his initial comments on his reasons for adding the two extra members is this not just simply lies to claim that they will be acting independently ?


  • Options
    #30
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Pugsly wrote: »
    So the latest is Kenny is claiming that the coalition members have been removed from the party whip and they are acting independently on the committee. He is also calling for Donnelly to rejoin the committee.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-appeals-to-stephen-donnelly-to-rejoin-banking-inquiry-30357867.html

    Given his initial comments on his reasons for adding the two extra members is this not just simply lies to claim that they will be acting independently ?

    Of course they are lies. A few days ago he wanted to control the terms of reference now he expects us to believe they have removed the party whip. I can't speak for any of you but I'm not a stupid person and I require a lot more than that.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,479 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Kenny has pretty much destroyed the credibility of the bank inquiry as others have said. No one is going to acknowledge it as anything more than a political witch hunt anymore.

    And its difficult to see why. They could have packed that inquiry with wall to wall with Fianna Fail TDs and they wouldn't be able to avoid putting the lions share of the blame down to Fianna Fail and the Greens. It was their ill judged and rushed decision to put a limitless guarantee on the assets of a banking sector bigger than the entire Irish economy.

    Kenny is confirming my own misgivings that I had about Fine Gael under his leadership. Essentially incompetent, tolerant of corruption and under performance, dismissive of dissent. He cant even understand what caused the poor outcomes in Irish governance over the past decades, let alone have any interest in or capability for solving them.

    Stephen Donnelly on the other hand is very impressive - its a tough decision that he has made, but better to exit the inquiry and show it up for what it is than allow them to use the cover of his participation for the purposes of show. Donnelly is demonstrating why we need more Independants in the Dail next time out. A junior TD in an established party would never have had the courage or principle to do that.

    @Good loser
    What are you talking about? We have a perfectly nomal political democracy working well here. All that's wrong with it ( if anything) is the intimidation/bullying generated by the electorate on the TDs. These run hither and thither trying to placate an electorate of wasters. Signs on more and more of that electorate is voting Independent. We get the Govt we deserve.

    I wanted to respond to this as soon as I read it, but I decided to pause and come back to it later. I still cant quite articulate what I think of the above viewpoint, other than to say that to me it represents all that's wrong in Irish politics and governance. I really hope I've misunderstood and you were lampooning the view you expressed, but I doubt it.

    The people have lost the confidence of the government; the government has decided to dissolve the people, and to appoint another one.
    Bertolt Brecht


Advertisement