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Trying to understand the relationship between republicanism and anti-drugs?

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  • 12-04-2014 10:09am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 17


    Greetings. I have been reading a lot about modern Irish history lately, I am an American of 1/2 Irish heritage. Have visited but never lived in Ireland.
    I think the PIRA had its place in history leading to the Good Friday agreement, and I believe in peaceful republicanism and that it will lead to a unified Ireland.
    Anyway here's my question.
    What exactly is up with these post-Good Friday agreement "dissident" groups and their interest, randomly, in drugs? RAAD, RIRA, etc...
    Is it all merely a cover-up for the tactic of shaking down drug dealers as a means of raising revenue?
    Did there exist such a thing as a link between "republicanism" and being against drugs before?
    Personally I hope to see a united ireland within my lifetime, achieved through peaceful means and through conflict resolution between the orange and the green in Northern Ireland, and through uniting people by class interests rather than perceived national heritage.
    I also hope to see cannabis legalized in Ireland as it is starting to be legalized in America.
    I certainly see no reason why an Irish republican should be against cannabis. In fact, I hope to see Ireland fully green in the future... all 32 counties green, and also, plenty of green cannabis available for all who desire it.
    So.... anyway.... can someone explain to me if there is an actual cultural or historical reason why "republicans" would spend their time persecuting people for providing their neighbors with a blessed plant, or is this purely a protection racket?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    It's a good question, and an issue I often had plenty of debate about when I was active in Republican politics. There are a number of different facets to the issue I suppose.

    The Provisional IRA was very much a community-dependent organisation in the sense that for it to operate as an effective guerrilla army it had to rely on the support of the people in the areas where they operated. They depended on nationalist communities for recruits, transport, safe-houses, information, support, arms dumps, money and even for those not that supportive of them to turn a blind eye. In the north, the fabric of these communities was often tested not only by the British occupation or actions of Loyalist paramilitaries, but also by anti-social behaviour and drug dealing from within those communities themselves. As the main actor and main organisation in these areas, the IRA were often looked upon to provide some sort of "policing" in order to combat this. Their opposition to the drug trade was rooted in the fact that it is often cannibalistic and socially destructive; and in the case of Irish working class communities they weren't far off the mark in that.

    It's important to realise as well that parts of Ireland had a pretty horrific drug problem that wasn't limited to cannabis. The likes of heroin for instance was a hugely destabilising factor in parts of Dublin which wreaked havoc in areas that were once proud and cohesive working class communities. This is a drug that allowed parasitical elements there to amass a fortune and leave total destruction in its wake; everything from ODs, prostitution, massive amounts of street robbery and burglary as well as young people being negatively influenced by gangsters. While the IRA was rightly against the heroin trade, it is important to realise that most of the anti-drugs stuff in the 1980s and 1990s were community-based movements where the link with the IRA was tenuous at best. The Provos played a supporting role, despite the protestations at the time that it was an IRA front. Nevertheless, Republican participation in anti-drugs campaigns were a major factor in them gaining a political foothold in the capital.

    Today there are a myriad of groups out there using a multitude of different names. While some people involved in these are sincere they also have attracted a rump of gangsters and it's an unfortunate fact that many of these characters are actively extorting drug dealers. This is something that is definitely taking place in Cork and Dublin anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 snorkleberry


    Thanks for the interesting and thoughtful response. Makes sense.
    Drug addiction certainly can be a scourge on communities, and for people who don't understand the difference between cannabis and heroin, and the relative dangers of each, I can certainly see them misguidedly thinking that cannabis must be fought to save communities.
    I have read about the policing function of the PIRA in the north when the RUC could not be relied upon to do this.
    I guess it is probably a combination of both, historical policing function of the PIRA plus the very real damage done to communities in Ireland by some kinds of drugs, sort of spinning off into a protection racket by current dissident groups. This helps the situation make more sense to me and seem less random. Thanks again for the note.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    There are people in that movement who do have a very narrow-minded "anti drugs" philosophy, there is no doubt about that. I know people who would go apoplectic about the thought of someone smoking a joint but have no problem skulling twelve pints of Guinness at a function. While that hysterical view wasn't wholly uncommon, it wasn't the view that drove Republican involvement in anti-drugs campaigns. In other words, they weren't going out shooting people for smoking hash rather targeted the elements in that trade they perceived to be destabilising communities.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    A lot of critics of the PIRA would say back in the 80s and 90s when they were effectively policing in areas such as Belfast and Derry that they were anti drugs and kneecapping drug dealers but were on the other hand taking protection money of certain dealers,dont know if that was true or not but would leave them in a very hypocritical situation if it was true.


    In loyalist strongholds it seemed to be completely controlled by loyalist gangs and led to massive splits and murders.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    The Provisional IRA was never involved in drugs. There are plenty of things you can criticise them for and that's not one of them. Any IRA Volunteer caught at that craic would have been shot pretty quick.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    FTA69 wrote: »
    The Provisional IRA was never involved in drugs. There are plenty of things you can criticise them for and that's not one of them. Any IRA Volunteer caught at that craic would have been shot pretty quick.
    Im not saying that they did and I wasn't saying that any volunteers were directly dealing but that it has been said in many reports that they took protection money from "licenced" drug dealers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    tipptom wrote: »
    [/B] Im not saying that they did and I wasn't saying that any volunteers were directly dealing but that it has been said in many reports that they took protection money from "licenced" drug dealers.

    Propagandist nonsense. The same crowd in the media were also calling IRA members "godfathers" and all of that craic. The media offensive was as much an integral part of the conflict as the military aspect.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    tipptom wrote: »
    [/B] Im not saying that they did and I wasn't saying that any volunteers were directly dealing but that it has been said in many reports that they took protection money from "licenced" drug dealers.

    Total cack, tbh. An urban legend.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    PIRA/RIRA are mercenaries. They have as much of a notion as to what Republicanism is as a flea has. They are not and were never Republicans. They were/are vulnerable people recruited by psychopaths in the name of a 'cause' which no longer exists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    sopretty wrote: »
    PIRA/RIRA are mercenaries. They have as much of a notion as to what Republicanism is as a flea has. They are not and were never Republicans. They were/are vulnerable people recruited by psychopaths in the name of a 'cause' which no longer exists.

    I heard that sort nonsense before, it's not new, and I am sure it will be repeated over and over again.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    FTA69 wrote: »
    The Provisional IRA was never involved in drugs. There are plenty of things you can criticise them for and that's not one of them. Any IRA Volunteer caught at that craic would have been shot pretty quick.


    Senior "ex members" have been though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    I heard that sort nonsense before, it's not new, and I am sure it will be repeated over and over again.

    I unfortunately, have read the garda statements as to what these dudes did in the name of republicanism in order to extort money. They are scum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Generally the Provos had a no-tolerance attitude to heroin dealers, but it got a muddier for other drugs. I personally know of one Belfast-based ecstasy manufacturer who was known to senior IRA figures in the city, but essentially left alone on the basis of his family being within the republican camp, and the potential usefulness of his chemistry knowledge to them down the road. This was around 1990. Other republican groups were up to their eyes in drug and other criminal revenue, as were some loyalist groups.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    sopretty wrote: »
    I unfortunately, have read the garda statements as to what these dudes did in the name of republicanism in order to extort money. They are scum.

    Are they on tapes or cd's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Are they on tapes or cd's.

    If they were on tapes or cds my dear, I would not have read them. I would have listened to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    sopretty wrote: »
    If they were on tapes or cds my dear, I would not have read them. I would have listened to them.

    There is a specialist unit in Garda headquarters transcribing them to paper at the moment. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 snorkleberry


    Just circling round back to my initial puzzlement at "republican" groups persecuting people involved in Cannabis, here's an interesting case of someone who was shot in the legs for selling Cannabis seeds, which as I understand is actually perfectly legal. This fellow was selling Cannabis seeds from a head shop I believe:

    <snip> MOD: Unapproved link.

    This kind of thing makes me think these fellows are spiralling off into their own completely confused universe. Unless they were trying to shake down the head shop for protection money, in which case there would be a rational though wrong/evil reason to do this, it's just idiocy.

    The PIRA had a purpose and goals and sought to accomplish them. I'm wonder what are these guys even up to? They need to get with the 21st century. Selling legal products such as cannabis seeds in a legally established shop that pays taxes is perfectly acceptable. The rest of the world is getting away from the prohibitionist mentality about cannabis very quickly. Why are these guys living in the dark ages?

    I'm a bit speechless at this type of activity. I dont know why they call themselves republicans, they're just random gangs of thugs for engaging in this type of bizarre behavior.

    If they are truly republicans, they should quit this nonsense and focus on achieving a united Ireland through peaceful means, which is now a perfectly realistic goal, thanks to the Good Friday agreement. The unionist population of Northern Ireland should be communicated with. Westminster does not have the interests of the common working people of Northern Ireland at heart. Their loyalty to London is misguided. Efforts to unite Ireland should be taking place now through peaceful political action.

    However let's say for the sake of argument (and just as devil's advocate, I dont believe this), that there still should be physical force republican movements active in Ireland. If that were the case, why don't they just focus on that? This type of activity is just pure idiocy and will win them no friends or influence, just public revulsion. They're living in some fantasy land of their own construction.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Just circling round back to my initial puzzlement at "republican" groups persecuting people involved in Cannabis, here's an interesting case of someone who was shot in the legs for selling Cannabis seeds, which as I understand is actually perfectly legal. This fellow was selling Cannabis seeds from a head shop I believe:

    <snip> MOD: Unapproved link.

    This kind of thing makes me think these fellows are spiralling off into their own completely confused universe. Unless they were trying to shake down the head shop for protection money, in which case there would be a rational though wrong/evil reason to do this, it's just idiocy.

    The PIRA had a purpose and goals and sought to accomplish them. I'm wonder what are these guys even up to? They need to get with the 21st century. Selling legal products such as cannabis seeds in a legally established shop that pays taxes is perfectly acceptable. The rest of the world is getting away from the prohibitionist mentality about cannabis very quickly. Why are these guys living in the dark ages?

    I'm a bit speechless at this type of activity. I dont know why they call themselves republicans, they're just random gangs of thugs for engaging in this type of bizarre behavior.

    If they are truly republicans, they should quit this nonsense and focus on achieving a united Ireland through peaceful means, which is now a perfectly realistic goal, thanks to the Good Friday agreement. The unionist population of Northern Ireland should be communicated with. Westminster does not have the interests of the common working people of Northern Ireland at heart. Their loyalty to London is misguided. Efforts to unite Ireland should be taking place now through peaceful political action.

    However let's say for the sake of argument (and just as devil's advocate, I dont believe this), that there still should be physical force republican movements active in Ireland. If that were the case, why don't they just focus on that? This type of activity is just pure idiocy and will win them no friends or influence, just public revulsion. They're living in some fantasy land of their own construction.




    Heres how it is : The RIRA dont have the support base of the PIRA, nor the logistical and military ability to carry out an ongoing effective campaign, they are also heavily infiltrated by the security services.

    Therefore a war on drugs and dealers is more a tactic to gain community support and is alot easier then shooting Police etc.

    The RIRAs objective is medium/longterm, they are cultivating working class youths as future members and filling the void left by the provos.

    The reality is its doubtful such a tactic will work, they will continue to be marginalised and contained.


    Creating an anti drugs community hysteria will only take them so far.


    From a moral perspective the campaign is ridiculous as only a tiny amount people die from drug abuse every year and heroin deaths are down year on year. Compared to tens of thousands dying from smoking/drinking etc.

    Drugs like cocaine provide an income to poverty stricken natives in the Amazon who grow it, It means they can send their kids to school, one family said the income meant they could buy a fridge and generator, it was the first time they tasted a cold drink.

    If people in the west want to buy coke etc, it should be legalised and licensed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    It has little to do with Republicanism and everything to do with control of the criminal underworld. They extort money to further their criminality in the name of 'Republicanism'. It has nothing to do with Republicanism and everything to do with criminal gangs and money and extortion and violence and crime. That is my opinion.

    They attack the drug gangs, not because they are anti-drugs, but because the drug gangs have a lot of control. It's simply gang war. With Republicanism being used as an unfortunate excuse for their actions.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Here is an interesting documentary on the drugs war in Derry.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsAHGu-Z-VA


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17 snorkleberry


    Interesting documentary, thanks for the link. Looks like your link passed muster but not mine. @_@
    :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 snorkleberry


    Just wrt to the drug war, the drug war itself is the cause of most of the misery of, for example, heroin addiction. Heroin is certainly bad news, highly addictive, and people should stay away from it. However, once addicted, it is a habit that can be managed safely as long as people have access to it. Most of the deaths related to heroin are a direct result of prohibition. Overdoses due to unknown quality and purity of the contraband drugs obtained on the street are a big killer of addicts. HIV, hepatitis, etc., related to sharing needles because people can't obtain the drug and supplies legally, etc., are the problem. Also heroin obtained on the street is filled with impurities and is not sterile. When users inject it, they get infections, skin abscesses, endocarditis, pulmonary infections, etc. Heroin obtained from a pharmacy would not be good for you and would be inadvisable to take other than for genuine medical need such as cancer pain, but it would not suffer from these problems. In the US prior to drug prohibition, heroin and cocaine (and marijuana) were available in pharmacies legally, this goes back less than 100 years ago, to 1920 or so. People didn't die of heroin overdoses at that time. They certainly did have their lives disrupted by pointless physical addiction to it, but getting their heroin at a reasonable price, a price not inflated by the fact that the substance is prohibited, and obtaining heroin of known purity, and a means to administer it, were not a problem at that time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Tramps Like Us


    Best thing the provos ever did was keep heroin out of areas they controlled, the contrast with loyalist areas was stark.

    As for dissidents its sad to say that the sunday world has largely been proved correct (about Dublin at least)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Tramps Like Us


    Just to mention that much of the aggro about weed was that it was the same crowd selling that and harder drugs in many cases. Its rare you get a dealer selling weed who is not involved in some other criminality


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭SPM1959


    Best thing the provos ever did was keep heroin out of areas they controlled, the contrast with loyalist areas was stark.

    As for dissidents its sad to say that the sunday world has largely been proved correct (about Dublin at least)

    The 'dissident' republican movement in Dublin does certainly seem to be rotten to the core. I read the Sunday World articles at the time with skepticism but they seem to be spot on in what they wrote about Alan Ryan and co.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    I am not sure its a productive idea to equate groups like RAAD with the dissident anti-drugs activity in the ROI. While both sets of groups have intersecting goals and probably memberships, I don't think that you can presume that RAAD's actions are simply politically motivated, I have always thought its likely that RAAD probably includes "ex-provisionals" that may not actually be directly involved in activities directly against the British state. If P Flynn has been kneecapping dealers for the last 20 years and "keeping his community safe from drugs" is it likely that he would completely disassociate from this activity because of Good Friday.

    In relation to the point about weed vs other drugs, while I am sure it did occur I never heard of any serious incidents of stuff that happened to people dealing exclusively dealing weed. The fact that there was pretty heavy usage of other drugs in the 90's and 2000's (the time period I would know) in Derry while there appeared to be a much much lower rate of heroin addiction than corresponding cities in the ROI reinforces that idea for me. By rights Derry has all the same ingredients in terms of social issues to make it have a heroin problem as bad as Limericks or Athlones but it doesn't.

    Snorkleberry, was you link for the shooting in Red Star, that sounded bizarre from what I remember he was shot by a dwarf or something :confused:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    RAAD as a 'formal' group no longer exists though right? I thought they merged with the RIRA some months ago?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭SPM1959


    Yes, they amalgamated a couple of years ago at this stage. Strange one as the 32CSM - political wing of the RIRA - claimed they were a MI5 group (or words to that effect) at one stage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Sinn Fein and anti-drugs have a long history.

    If you go back to the 1980s, they set up a large number of anti-drugs groups. For a number of reasons, these groups failed to eliminate drugs in Dublin. The cynics said that the reason certain groups got strong was the failure of drugs gangs to pay protection money to the IRA.

    There is no doubt that in those times the hands of the IRA and their SF apologists were not clean on the issue. However that does not mean that the current incarnation is similarly corrupt.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    Godge wrote: »
    Sinn Fein and anti-drugs have a long history.

    If you go back to the 1980s, they set up a large number of anti-drugs groups. For a number of reasons, these groups failed to eliminate drugs in Dublin. The cynics said that the reason certain groups got strong was the failure of drugs gangs to pay protection money to the IRA.

    There is no doubt that in those times the hands of the IRA and their SF apologists were not clean on the issue. However that does not mean that the current incarnation is similarly corrupt.

    You must take into the question that the people who marched on known drug dealers homes in those time's, were treated harshly and arrested by the Gardaí. Harassed in their place of work, some were SF activist's most of the people that took part in the marches were people with no political connection, but were treated as Provo supporters. That is where the Gardaí found themselves isolated and distanced from the community. Something they have never recovered from.


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