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Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

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    #1202
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    hexosan wrote: »
    @villain you still haven't explained how a self builder can get around signing the cert where it requires the principal or director of a company. ????

    The Minister says the act hasn't changed in respect of Self builds, that is good enough for me.


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    #1203
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    hexosan wrote: »

    @martainn123 while id like to believe the fees will only add a couple of extra grand to the build cost is this not a free market and what right has the minister to say how much a professional should charge to certify. At the end of the day he's not doing the certifying.
    If he came out and said builders will only be charging X amount I'm sure you'd have a problem with that.

    In fairness I think he was using this as an illustration of some of the hyperbole, around this subject, rather than trying to set a Fee structure

    I agree with your comment regarding building costs.


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    #1204
    Corkblowin
    Registered Users Posts: 622 ✭✭✭Corkblowin


    Hogan has continued to muddy the waters.

    Its true that there has been no change to the technical standards - ie insulation levels, structure, fire, disabled access etc - but no-one has been saying these are a problem. What has changed are the procedures by which you prove compliance with the regulations.

    As for the costs - I can see how it would only cost 1-3k extra - but only in the situation where the self builder had already paid for full service and gotten a set of construction drawings and was paying for regular site inspection. In that instance, if the same person could act as assigned certifier then costs could be rationalised.

    But how many do get a full service? and of those that do, how many used a technologist like me? I've done one full-service self build in 15 years, but now that guy couldn't use me to sign off.

    As for saying we've had 2 years to get ready and architects training has been late - the code of practice was only released 2 weeks ago - how could we get training in something that wasn't yet in place!!!!! That bit really made me angry and of course any response now won't get the same coverage.

    Only bit of light relief was Hogan hanging Graby & the president out to dry as being on board with the changes - just as the members who were asking for deferral said would happen. Hard to feel sorry for the RIAI though - they've shafted their technologist members and now they'll be shafted by Hogan.


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    #1205
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭hexosan


    Villain wrote: »
    The Minister says the act hasn't changed in respect of Self builds, that is good enough for me.

    So your ignoring the law & the defence is but sure someone told me it was ok to do what I wanted. Would make for an interesting court case.

    Has the minister once specifically referenced the section requiring a principal or director to sign the cert and then said self builders can ignore this section. Unless you can provide evidence of this you need to give up your cause.
    Up to this point your only contribution has been "but the minister said it's ok".

    When did he said this ??????


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    #1206
    BabysCoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 4,712 ✭✭✭BabysCoffee


    Hope everyone affected by this has sent an email to Minister Hogan and all other ministers. If not, do it now! A simple one line email saying your view will suffice.


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    #1207
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    hexosan wrote: »
    So your ignoring the law & the defence is but sure someone told me it was ok to do what I wanted. Would make for an interesting court case.

    Has the minister once specifically referenced the section requiring a principal or director to sign the cert and then said self builders can ignore this section. Unless you can provide evidence of this you need to give up your cause.
    Up to this point your only contribution has been "but the minister said it's ok".

    When did he said this ??????

    To be fair to Villain, and others who have quoted Hogan, he did reference Self-Builders on Radio this morning, aired at 8.20am
    The interview was pre-recorded, and has been heading News Bulletins since

    So by the time the first Civil Servant turned up at 9am, in the Dept. he may have issued a directive to sort out this form

    The legislation comes into effect tomorrow, so if 4Sticks crystal ball is right......

    It ain't over till the Fat Lady Sings.


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    #1208
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Interestingly Hogan also states Fees should be in the range of 1-3K for a one off, for this extra work.

    This, I would sugest is ture...but...for large scale develpments where there are multiple 'units'.

    Hogan quoted the same figure in the Independent during the week saying 'per unit'...he did also add the caveat at the end that the 'market would dictate'!


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    #1209
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Or responding to observations made, before the Reg's come into force, to remove a valid objection, and make the Legislation, workable. Surely thats what these periods of consultation are for.

    Naah. Just the minister using a classic negotiating strategy is all. Slap in the face being better than a kick in the ....s! It's what I beleive happened anyway.


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    #1210
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    martinn123 wrote: »
    I suggested yesterday, a simple Amendment could remove this objection, again if your crystal ball, is working, and this wording is amended, are we all back on track,

    No we would not be.

    The pool of viable Cetifiers is slashed
    That residual pool is very very nervous ( whether you or anyone else cares to acknowledge the case for that - they are )
    Many of that pool will not wish to offer services to self builders ( money will not talk in sufficient numbers , Villain)
    The attitude of lenders is yet to be made known. I think they will be minding the pennys very carefully and not at all inclined to get "back on track".

    My crystal ball may or may not be right of course....


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    #1211
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭hexosan


    From my experience with mortgage lenders on my own build they have looked for every excuse possible not to lend or release money. I spent 7 weeks bending over backwards catering to their every whim to get my stage payment.
    One comical request they made to delay the payment was asking me to increase my site insurance to €550,000 over 200k about what they valued the house at. When pushed to explain the reason the answer given was if you want the payment do it.

    I can foresee them requesting that every single element of the legislation is followed to the letter and can't seem to see them agreeing to self builds if the legislation requires a builder to be named. Plus when I went down the self build route they wanted every element of the build detailed and budgeted whereas they would of excepts a contract price off a builder far quicker.


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    #1212
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    4Sticks wrote: »
    Naah. Just the minister using a classic negotiating strategy is all. Slap in the face being better than a kick in the ....s! It's what I beleive happened anyway.

    Bit cynical........but possibly true
    we all back on track,

    I was only referring to this darn form, upon which so much Legal Opinion, has been offered here, needs a thread in the Legal Forum.;)

    All your other observations remain


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    #1213
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Everybody up to their eyes lodging standard CN's today?
    Last day to lodge before SI9 kicks in.


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    #1214
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,038 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    if i was coming at it from villians point of view or any prospective novice self builder... id be LIVID

    The minister sees to be unilaterally saying something that is at odds with all other stakeholders.

    IEI, RIAI, SCSI, IAOSB have all said self building is over.
    Professionals who certify are being told by their representative bodies that self building is gone and a competent builder must be appointed. The actual law SI9 states in a few locations that the builders certificate is to be signed by a principle of a building company ("where applicable" buts doesnt differentiate wheres its not applicable)
    The Code of practise specifically states that a builder must be appointed.

    The two forms of guidance, the Leaflet and the localgov.ie website, both contradict themselves if viewed from the novice self builder point of view... but actually make sense if the self builder is an established builder.

    D Day is today, any commencement notice submitted after today is subject to these regs, as long as they are not exempt.


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    #1215
    mandy gall
    Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭mandy gall


    It may be V Day yet lads. Ive just finished an interview on the Morning Edition Show fighting for our Build.


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    #1216
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    mandy gall wrote: »
    It may be V Day yet lads. Ive just finished an interview on the Morning Edition Show fighting for our Build.


    Figured that was you! :D Didn't know they had houses in Mayo. :D


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    #1217
    mandy gall
    Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭mandy gall


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Figured that was you! :D Didn't know they had houses in Mayo. :D

    Well dont know that either as we are in sligo. If Hogan has his way we'll all be living in cages like North Korea ;)


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    #1218
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,266 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    I was quite disgusted with a interview by an architect on local radio in Mayo yesterday.
    He was poorly informed and misleading to say the least.
    He 'confirmed' that all buildings including agricultural sheds came under this as long as they were over 40 sq.m.
    He also went on to say that the issue with troublesome builds such as priory hall was that they wouldnt have been registered professionals involved which imo is quite a big assumption to make.
    When asked about the increased costs associated with this, he went off on a tangent about energy ratings, part L compliance and running cost savings as if to say that nobody was complying currently.

    I had 2 people call me after the program looking to get houses signed off. One who is in a position to submit commencement today and one who is not. I dont think its even worth the hassle now of being involved with a new build starting now under the old system.


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    #1219
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    mandy gall wrote: »
    Well dont know that either as we are in sligo. If Hogan has his way we'll all be living in cages like North Korea ;)

    oops! :P

    Well played btw!


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    #1220
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Hogan has managed to polarize professionals , builders and "the client body" here and that is all he has done.
    The impacts - mostly negative I fear - will ripple for months , maybe years from now until a more enlightened minister chooses re address the issues.
    Building standards and consumer protection have not been advanced one iota.
    And Big Phil will blame all but himself for this.


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    #1221
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,266 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    I dont think we have all that long to wait for a new minister or new government either for that matter.


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    #1222
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    if i was coming at it from villians point of view or any prospective novice self builder... id be LIVID

    Just to clarify my self build was completed last year, I am not affected directly by any changes.


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    #1223
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    How would you feel if you were starting work next month Villain i.e. under the new controls?


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    #1224
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    4Sticks wrote: »
    How would you feel if you were starting work next month Villain i.e. under the new controls?

    Confident that I could complete as I did last year


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    #1225
    jiminho
    Registered Users Posts: 389 ✭✭jiminho


    From RTE website, re: Min. Hogan interview:

    Members of the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland have called for the deferral of new building regulations due to come into force tomorrow.

    The regulations will increase the levels of accountability on professionals signing off on new buildings.

    Councillors in rural areas have called on Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan to amend the regulations to facilitate rural self-builders who want to build on their own land.

    The Department of the Environment said the new regulations are needed to ensure properties are safe and compliant with the regulations.

    Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Mr Hogan said there is nothing new in the regulations that prevent direct labour.

    "The people who engage in direct labour or self-build will be able to continue to do so because there is no change in the act; in the statutory obligations under the Building Control Act 1990," he said.

    The minister added that he is "expecting a professional to sign off on the work that it is actually done in accordance with the papers that are lodged and that it is up to a high standard ... that will cost somewhere between one and two thousand euro".

    He said it is "a small cost to pay to make sure that things are done right for a home that might cost €100,000 or €150,000".

    Mr Hogan said the new regulations were being brought in because of all the poor building standards that have been signed off by professionals, which resulted in places such as Priory Hall, unfinished estates and pyritic material in buildings.

    The minister said he could not understand what he described as the "wild exaggeration" in relation to self-builds.

    He said there is no change in the technical performance standards in respect of newly-finished homes.

    I know there's been a lot of he said, she said, regs say yada-yada but it is bizarre that Hogan is so adamant in his reasoning. He has said time and time again that people who want to take the direct build route can still do so. I mean it's one thing to fudge the truth, it's another to flat out lie. I guess time will tell. Nothing's set in stone quite yet and who's to say there will be an amendment shortly after regardless of what comes to fruition tomorrow. Ahh to be Irish!!! :o


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    #1226
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    jiminho wrote: »
    I know there's been a lot of he said, she said, regs say yada-yada but it is bizarre that Hogan is so adamant in his reasoning. He has said time and time again that people who want to take the direct build route can still do so.

    He is telling the truth, but not the whole truth.

    If you are a competent builder and are the principal/director of the building company, then yes, you can carry out a direct/self build for yourself.

    Based on the current legislation, that will come into force at midnight, that's the way it is.


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    #1227
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    He is telling the truth, but not the whole truth.

    If you are a competent builder and are the principal/director of the building company, then yes, you can carry out a direct/self build for yourself.

    Based on the current legislation, that will come into force at midnight, that's the way it is.

    Comments such as the above, have made this thread just go round, and round, and get nowhere, for the past few weeks.

    Everyone is putting their own spin, on what was said

    I listened to RTE today, and the Minister said what is quoted in post #1225

    OK there are some clarifications needed pertaining to the ''Form''

    I think this sums it up
    RIAI President wrote:
    Self-Builders
    It is unclear how self builders will be able to operate under the new system. The government will need to provide clarification on this issue.

    in a statement issued today
    see

    http://www.riai.ie/index.php/news/article/riai_presidents_statement_on_building_control_amendment_regulations


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    #1228
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Well we do enter a new phase now after COB today.

    Which is why I have asked that we have a new dedicated sub forum for Building Control similar to BER / Renewable energies etc.

    I think the matter will spawn thread after thread and so to all reading if you think so too please add your voice to mine here


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    #1229
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Comments such as the above, have made this thread just go round, and round, and get nowhere, for the past few weeks.

    You can't blame anybody for going round in circles when the Minister says one thing and the legislation says another.

    There are no 'clarifications' required on the form, that is part of the legislation. Clarifications will not do anything. The only thing that will count is a change in the legislation.


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    #1230
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Toddling off now to revise drawings for what was a 43.4m.sq. extension to 39.9m.sq. :P


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    #1231
    Chisler2
    Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Chisler2


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Or responding to observations made, before the Reg's come into force, to remove a valid objection, and make the Legislation, workable
    Surely thats what these periods of consultation are for.



    I suggested yesterday, a simple Amendment could remove this objection, again if your crystal ball, is working, and this wording is amended, are we all back on track, and the ongoing, and cynical criticisms aimed at Self Builders, here can desist.

    Interestingly Hogan also states Fees should be in the range of 1-3K for a one off, for this extra work.

    This is in stark contrast to comments here some time ago, that Certifyers would have to be on site every day, and charge up to 8%.

    I for one would welcome some ''Legal Opinion'',post, Hogans statement this morning, not anything available up to now.

    An end to Gross Exhaduration, as Hogan stated, would also be welcome.

    Note. I am certainly not a supporter of Hogan, or FG

    Surely the legalities are being set by S.I.9. It's a change in "law". Dramatically-increased costs are inevitable. The person certifying must cover their (massively-increased!) insurance!!!!


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