Code for Ireland Launch Event

Sparks · 23-01-2014 4:28pm

Zipppy wrote: »

So along comes Code for Ireland (or another similar group / get together) and suddenly it MAY be possible to get some good done for society...suerly that's a good thing?

That's irrelevant. Nobody's suggesting that the projects are meritless. The objection is about something entirely different - namely that these aren't charitable works, but commercial ones. If the public sector can't afford to pay to get them done, well, tough. If a developer working on an app can't afford their mortgage, the bank won't care about the community's needs.

So if you're a developer with any development skills, why not get involved?

Because I charge for my time and services so that my family can have a roof over their heads, food on the table and clothes on their back.

Also don't forget that if you're a young or inexperienced developer seeking employment, such initiatives can give you vital experience to put on your CV and maybe get you a job....just maybe...

That argument was morally bankrupt when jobbridge first used it and you're talking about looking for qualified skilled professional work for even less money than jobbridge offers.

We need better quality roads and infrastructure too, but I don't see us holding these kind of events to get the building industry to volunteer its time for free to build them for the community, because we all know the building industry wouldn't be able to stop laughing long enough to tell us where to go jump.

So are events like this saying that the software industry is just not as professional as the building industry? Is our time less valuable, is our work seen as just being so easy that we should agree to do it for free during an economic recession?

If you want a bunch of students to take this on as part of a course, cool, talk to the universities and set it up. There's already precedent for that, there are programs at the graduate level to get universities to do R&D work for industry under subsidy by the government. This kind of thing would work very well for what this event is talking about. Asking industry to do it for free is just... well, if you were in an uncharitable frame of mind, it would be bordering on a professional insult.

Sparks · 23-01-2014 4:34pm

ChRoMe wrote: »

I'm involved in the development of the queueing application, what exactly do you mean that they seem commercial in nature? Its quite an ambiguous comment.

I mean that it's work that isn't for a charity and isn't the developers own idea of what to do for fun on a saturday night.

Look, you want to do this for fun, that's not a bad thing. But I look at the way this event is being reported and it just doesn't strike me as being of the same nature as someone hacking on the linux kernel on the weekend for their own amusement. It's being reported as though elements in the public sector have specifications for apps and no budget to commission them, but they're asking for the work to be done for free anyway.

Put it this way - if you wrote that app and tried to sell it in the store for a euro, (a) would you be allowed, and (b) would you get all the money the way you would if you'd done it without this event, if you'd just come up with the idea some rainy tuesday and implemented it that weekend because you were bored?

Zipppy · 23-01-2014 4:46pm

Sparks wrote: »

That's irrelevant. Nobody's suggesting that the projects are meritless. The objection is about something entirely different - namely that these aren't charitable works, but commercial ones. If the public sector can't afford to pay to get them done, well, tough. If a developer working on an app can't afford their mortgage, the bank won't care about the community's needs.

Because I charge for my time and services so that my family can have a roof over their heads, food on the table and clothes on their back.

That argument was morally bankrupt when jobbridge first used it and you're talking about looking for qualified skilled professional work for even less money than jobbridge offers.

We need better quality roads and infrastructure too, but I don't see us holding these kind of events to get the building industry to volunteer its time for free to build them for the community, because we all know the building industry wouldn't be able to stop laughing long enough to tell us where to go jump.

So are events like this saying that the software industry is just not as professional as the building industry? Is our time less valuable, is our work seen as just being so easy that we should agree to do it for free during an economic recession?

If you want a bunch of students to take this on as part of a course, cool, talk to the universities and set it up. There's already precedent for that, there are programs at the graduate level to get universities to do R&D work for industry under subsidy by the government. This kind of thing would work very well for what this event is talking about. Asking industry to do it for free is just... well, if you were in an uncharitable frame of mind, it would be bordering on a professional insult.

Taking all your points together...

Code for Ireland is obviously not for you...and that's perfectly fine...to each their own.

Lots of people in society with particular skills are happy to help out their community...
eg people giving up their evenings / Sundays to coach schoolboy soccer / GAA/other sport....

If the public sector can't afford to pay to get them done, well, tough.

So then these services wont be delivered and those that could have availed of them will go without...why should society lose out because the country is broke?
I would hope that people would be civic minded enough to assist out....

Zipppy · 23-01-2014 4:59pm

Sparks wrote: »

I mean that it's work that isn't for a charity and isn't the developers own idea of what to do for fun on a saturday night.

Look, you want to do this for fun, that's not a bad thing. But I look at the way this event is being reported and it just doesn't strike me as being of the same nature as someone hacking on the linux kernel on the weekend for their own amusement. It's being reported as though elements in the public sector have specifications for apps and no budget to commission them, but they're asking for the work to be done for free anyway.

Put it this way - if you wrote that app and tried to sell it in the store for a euro, (a) would you be allowed, and (b) would you get all the money the way you would if you'd done it without this event, if you'd just come up with the idea some rainy tuesday and implemented it that weekend because you were bored?

I took it that community were involved to detail their needs / community issues that need fixing and Governments inclusion was mainly to leverage more Open Data...for everyone not just the Code for initiative..
I gather the idea is that the power of the movement involving the three necessary ingredients (community, developers, Government) will give greater leverage to realising much more Open Data...or at least that been the experience in the states...and I'm sure all developers would welcome more Open data to play with ?

If the PS have requirements for Apps based on a percieved community need and community sector agree that they are necessary services then surely that's not a bad thing? Community need is the key?

Anyhow just my thoughts........................

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 4:59pm

Sparks wrote: »

I mean that it's work that isn't for a charity and isn't the developers own idea of what to do for fun on a saturday night.

Look, you want to do this for fun, that's not a bad thing. But I look at the way this event is being reported and it just doesn't strike me as being of the same nature as someone hacking on the linux kernel on the weekend for their own amusement. It's being reported as though elements in the public sector have specifications for apps and no budget to commission them, but they're asking for the work to be done for free anyway.

Put it this way - if you wrote that app and tried to sell it in the store for a euro, (a) would you be allowed, and (b) would you get all the money the way you would if you'd done it without this event, if you'd just come up with the idea some rainy tuesday and implemented it that weekend because you were bored?

The society/community I live and work in I feel may benefit from the queueing application, thats why I'm willing to devote some free time to it. The society/community I live in most likely wont directly benefit from kernal hacking.

I wouldnt consider a chef doing a few evenings in soup kitchen as a professional insult to them, its just a nice thing to do that could benefit the people in their community.

hint: I'm a black and red lefty

Sparks · 23-01-2014 5:32pm

ChRoMe wrote: »

I wouldnt consider a chef doing a few evenings in soup kitchen as a professional insult to them, its just a nice thing to do that could benefit the people in their community.

Yeah, but that's charity, not commercial work.
Hence all those mentions above of that exception...

stevenmu · 23-01-2014 5:35pm

Sparks wrote: »

If the public sector can't afford to pay to get them done, well, tough.

I don't think the argument should really be about if the public sector can afford to get them done or not, it should be about if the public sector should have an obligation to do them or not.

I would argue that for some things the public sector should have an obligation to do them, and in that case should pay for it to be done correctly. I would also argue that for other things the public sector should not have an obligation to do them, and should therefore not pay for it to be done. There are already plenty of essential services which are underfunded, we don't need projects which are "kinda nice to have" also competing for limited resources.

If we accept that principle, and I would think it's a relatively uncontroversial one, then there will be certain things which the public sector should not develop, and wouldn't be commercially viable for the private sector, but which are still useful anyway. This is the gap I would think Code for Ireland intends to fill.

I think the queuing app mentioned does fit in that gap. While I think it's right for the public sector to provide that data, I don't think they should be throwing good money at the display format du jour, i.e. iOS and/or Android apps.

The location of defibrillators is arguably more essential, but again, we have to think about what formats should the public sector be obliged to provide that data in. While the web is fairly universal, apps are not. Even when it comes to just smartphones, there's a split between iOS, Android and to some degree Windows Phone and Blackberry. Should the public sector pay for apps for all of them? And if Ubuntu, Firefox, Sailfish etc take off, should the public sector have to redo all the apps for those too? IMHO it's better to oblige the public sector to provide websites with data (and to pay appropriately for them to be developed) and let the community decide if they want to develop apps or not.

I don't get the purpose of the Nama app, to be fair I haven't read the details of it, but that does sound it should be handled commercially.

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 5:48pm

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, but that's charity, not commercial work.
Hence all those mentions above of that exception...

Its not really different, and by the way the public service did not have these ideas already. They were formulated from the volunteers after discussing with public sector bodies their pain points. This is a volunteer driven endeavour in all senses.

Its a bizarre distinction, what we are doing is charity.

Sparks · 23-01-2014 5:49pm

Zipppy wrote: »

Lots of people in society with particular skills are happy to help out their community...
eg people giving up their evenings / Sundays to coach schoolboy soccer / GAA/other sport....

If you knew who you were talking to, you might feel silly for saying that. I'm more than familiar with volunteer work, I've done a decade or two of it.

I'm also rather familiar with how certain public sector bodies in Ireland, if they think they can get professional work done for the price of hiring out a conference room for a night, think that they shouldn't ever pay for that kind of work again. And I'm also appalled at what that jobbridge approach has done, and all the reports so far suggest this is just more of the same.

Doing pro bono work for fun or for charity is one thing and most of us here will have done that; being taken advantage of by people who try to imply being paid fairly for professional work that benefits others is unethical, well that's quite another thing, and it's not wrong to be wary of that.

So then these services wont be delivered and those that could have availed of them will go without...why should society lose out because the country is broke?

Did you seriously ask that question in this country after the last five or six years of cuts, or are you just trolling?

I would hope that people would be civic minded enough to assist out....

Hoping that professionals will volunteer their time to work on projects in an area that all the reports are stressing is worth $3 trillion seems... odd. But who knows, maybe that's just me.

Sparks · 23-01-2014 6:09pm

stevenmu wrote: »

If we accept that principle

I think we both take that principle as a given.

Whether or not professionals should step into the gap and in effect pay for the shortcoming, that's a whole other question. I don't see the building industry just going out there and fixing the infrastructure pro bono for the sake of the community, to reuse an example.

And this isn't charity work either, lets be clear on that. This isn't me arguing that soup kitchens shouldn't happen because Libertarianism.

I'm just saying, this is Ireland and we have a long history of taking the piss, and maybe we need to be a tad more cynical about this kind of thing, and not just because of where the the last few days in the public accounts committee have put the spotlight.

The location of defibrillators is arguably more essential

That one, to descend into detail for just a minute to make a side point, made all the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Have we actually passed a good Samaritan law in Ireland yet? If your app has a bug and sends someone to the wrong place for an AED and someone dies, what are the liability issues? How do you explain to the family that whoops, there was a null pointer exception and your loved one died, but bugs happen and if they needed an AED, they were probably dead anyway (if you need an AED and you're not in a hospital already, you really don't have great odds of survival to start with). If the family sues, will someone pick up the legal defence costs or are you left twisting in the wind because you tried to volunteer to do a community project?

I mean, if the app worked properly, I could see it being of some value (though maybe less than it sounds on first reading), but it's not exactly something I'd take on light-heartedly myself.

Sparks · 23-01-2014 6:10pm

ChRoMe wrote: »

Its a bizarre distinction, what we are doing is charity.

No, what you're doing is unpaid public sector work.
Look, if you find this fun and you're not being taken advantage of, more power to you, have fun, hope you succeed.
It just looks really odd to me.

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 6:51pm

Sparks wrote: »

No, what you're doing is unpaid public sector work.
Look, if you find this fun and you're not being taken advantage of, more power to you, have fun, hope you succeed.
It just looks really odd to me.

I come from the view that the service charities provide, *should* be provided by the state, they get off lightly leaving it to charities. The point is as a citizen that wants to contribute to my society, I can go and do something largely unskilled such as soup and coffee distribution. Or I can put my skills to use in a more effective way that essentially just being a warm body.

"This isn't me arguing that soup kitchens shouldn't happen because Libertarianism."

Thats what it looks like from the cheap seats.

Sparks · 23-01-2014 7:08pm

ChRoMe wrote: »

I come from the view that the service charities provide, *should* be provided by the state, they get off lightly leaving it to charities.

So do I, and to be fair, so do many many others. I would guess the vast majority in fact. I would also say that this is utterly unrelated to the cynicism some people feel towards this sort of thing, and trying to tie the two together is deeply unfair.

"This isn't me arguing that soup kitchens shouldn't happen because Libertarianism."
Thats what it looks like from the cheap seats.

Wow. The cheap seats shouldn't be thinking that. (Is this the bit where we have to defend our opinions by citing long records of volunteer and charity work?)

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 7:15pm

Sparks wrote: »

So do I, and to be fair, so do many many others. I would guess the vast majority in fact. I would also say that this is utterly unrelated to the cynicism some people feel towards this sort of thing, and trying to tie the two together is deeply unfair.

Wow. The cheap seats shouldn't be thinking that. (Is this the bit where we have to defend our opinions by citing long records of volunteer and charity work?)

Well, if you agree in principle with charities doing what should be done by the state, that makes your comments regarding it not being charity and being unpaid public sector work even more confusing. It also ,at least appears, to contradict you making a distinction with the soup kitchen analogy.

The "cheap seats" comment is merely a turn of phrase, it was not implying (or at least I didn't intend to) anything of the sort of people's views requiring validation by their own volunteer work or similar.

srsly78 · 23-01-2014 7:17pm

In the UK the government have a "crack team" of developers that they send around where needed. Why have we nothing like this here? Instead they spend loads of money on managers and consultants, it's ridiculous. This puts me off volunteering, well that and being lazy and mercenary.

Oh, the charity sector here is a joke as well, but that's another topic... Charity in Ireland means giving money to fatcat managers.

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 7:19pm

srsly78 wrote: »

In the UK the government have a "crack team" of developers that they send around where needed. Why have we nothing like this here? Instead they spend loads of money on managers and consultants, it's ridiculous.

I'm just back from 5 years in London several of which were spent writing software in the criminal justice sector for the UK government. I find it highly amusing any notion that the UK government have a crack team of developers, basically everything is contracted out to G4S and Serco, which churn out complete garbage (the civil servant ones are no better either).

tl;dr UK government is just as dysfunctional as the Irish one.

srsly78 · 23-01-2014 7:20pm

It's a new thing apparently.

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 7:22pm

srsly78 wrote: »

It's a new thing apparently.

It would require near unfathomable fundamental structural modifications to how the UK government deliver technical projects, of which there has been no change recently and certainly none on the horizon.

srsly78 · 23-01-2014 7:25pm

Well things are worse here... While your charity is admirable, it essentially props up our bloated system.

This is supposed to be the page for that uk team, but it seems to be down :P http://digital.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about/

Google for "cabinet office digital team". Loads of their sites are down tho haha...

Another link: https://gds.blog.gov.uk/tag/transparency/

It's probably bollox, but the idea of having a team they can parachute in where needed is good.

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 7:29pm

srsly78 wrote: »

Well things are worse here... While your charity is admirable, it essentially props up our bloated system.

This is supposed to be the page for that uk team, but it seems to be down :P http://digital.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about/

The defence rests your honour

The idea of parachuting developers in to a troubled project has generally be considered that it causes more problems than it solves (mythical man month). In the case of greenfield development you have other issues considering that generally public sector IT projects like this require a huge amount of specific domain knowledge from the developers to be able to truly deliver value and solve the problems.

" While your charity is admirable, it essentially props up our bloated system."

Yeah possibly, I wouldn't deny that, but until the revolution comes comrade.. etc etc. I will admit one thing that has greatly disapointed me with the Code for Ireland initiative so far. We (the developers) supplied email addresses to the the project coordinator and I made a point to discuss in the last ten minutes how further communication would be handled and what are goals were for the next meeting etc. So far I've not been contacted

srsly78 · 23-01-2014 7:33pm

If they need developers so badly, why aren't they hiring any? Instead they hire loads of hr goons and manglers. No doubt these get paid loads of organise initiatives like "code for Ireland".

http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/jobsearch.htm

Meanwhile the rest of us go to work in the UK right?

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 7:34pm

srsly78 wrote: »

If they need developers so badly, why aren't they hiring any? Instead they hire loads of hr goons and manglers. No doubt these get paid loads of organise initiatives like "code for Ireland".

http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/jobsearch.htm

Well they dont "need" in the sense that code for Ireland is not looking to replace/augment mission critical services. This is more about improving the public's experience of using public services, making it slightly less painful for the man on the street to do what he needs to when interacting with these agencies.

One of the developers there that night was a lovely guy who I got on with. His motivation for joining the queueing application group was his Brazilian girlfriend has to spend over 8 hours a day queuing for an ID and can then be told that after the 8 hours it wont happen. He experienced first hand a problem the public has of interacting with a public agency and with a bit of development was confident he could make it a better experience.

srsly78 · 23-01-2014 7:36pm

How much is this project coordinator getting paid? Is he a volunteer as well? What position does he hold?

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 7:37pm

srsly78 wrote: »

How much is this project coordinator getting paid? Is he a volunteer as well? What position does he hold?

Everyone is a volunteer. One of the code for Ireland founders is a civil servant for Fingal council in IT who belives that pushing government for an open data policy will provide benefits for all, I agree with him.

srsly78 · 23-01-2014 7:39pm

So is he taking holidays from work or...? I bet there are expenses to be had!

Sorry I find it hard to overcome my cynicism

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 7:40pm

srsly78 wrote: »

So is he taking holidays from work or...? I bet there are expenses to be had!

Sorry I find it hard to overcome my cynicism

The events are not during business hours for obvious reasons.

Try again

Sparks · 23-01-2014 7:44pm

ChRoMe wrote: »

Well, if you agree in principle with charities doing what should be done by the state

Stall that digger, that's not what I agree with - I agree that that is what is happening, not that it's what should be happening.

And I think that's entirely orthogonal to the concerns some people have...

The "cheap seats" comment is merely a turn of phrase, it was not implying (or at least I didn't intend to) anything of the sort of people's views requiring validation by their own volunteer work or similar.

Understood, but this whole topic seems to hover round the argument that if someone was ethical and civic-minded, they'd be queuing up around to block to do this kind of thing and that any question or cynicism is just unethical begrudgery!

Sparks · 23-01-2014 7:51pm

ChRoMe wrote: »

One of the developers there that night was a lovely guy who I got on with. His motivation for joining the queueing application group was his Brazilian girlfriend has to spend over 8 hours a day queuing for an ID and can then be told that after the 8 hours it wont happen. He experienced first hand a problem the public has of interacting with a public agency and with a bit of development was confident he could make it a better experience.

Yeah, but are you solving the right problem? 8 hours queuing doesn't sound like you need a queuing app, it sounds like the department needs to use an appointment based system instead of a queue based system (and probably to hire more people to handle the workload). Why aren't the department making that change?

This is a bit of a corollary to the issue, I know, but if you had to pay for this app to be done, instead of it being free, the bean counters would actually be looking at which solution was cheaper (and if the department's not interested in making things easier on the customers, then no app in the world is going to fix things for people).

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 7:57pm

Sparks wrote: »

Stall that digger, that's not what I agree with - I agree that that is what is happening, not that it's what should be happening.

And I think that's entirely orthogonal to the concerns some people have...

Understood, but this whole topic seems to hover round the argument that if someone was ethical and civic-minded, they'd be queuing up around to block to do this kind of thing and that any question or cynicism is just unethical begrudgery!

Sorry I worded that badly I know that's not what you agree with, will edit that post.

I think we are slightly missing each other's point in this respect. It is of no consequence to me if someone chooses to participate in the code for Ireland project, I wouldnt think lower of anyone who decides this is not how they wish to spend their (very valuable!) free time. In an attempt to condense how I'm viewing the situation I'll put it like this:

Yes, it should not be up to citizens to provide these services.

Yes, there is a valid argument that the free provision of developer labour in this context is helping a decrepit,corrupt and dysfunctional public sector.

I personally have taken the view that if a few hours of my week can help a fellow citizen have to deal with less of the standard complete bull**** one is made endure while engaging with state services, I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

Its unfortunate that a side effect of that generosity is that I'm also giving people who don't deserve any breaks a bit of a boost , but I still evaluate the proposition of having a net positive impact on Ireland as a whole. I also believe that if code of Ireland can act as a catalyst for an open data movement in Irish government, maybe, one day, with a bit of luck we will have enough data to start being able to call out the complete hypocrisy and corruption a little bit easier. Its a marathon not a sprint.

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 8:00pm

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, but are you solving the right problem? 8 hours queuing doesn't sound like you need a queuing app, it sounds like the department needs to use an appointment based system instead of a queue based system (and probably to hire more people to handle the workload). Why aren't the department making that change?

This is a bit of a corollary to the issue, I know, but if you had to pay for this app to be done, instead of it being free, the bean counters would actually be looking at which solution was cheaper (and if the department's not interested in making things easier on the customers, then no app in the world is going to fix things for people).

Very good points, all of which I and others have raised and were discussed on the night. We all agreed that we should be looking to get statistics for service utilisation to see if in fact another solution will add more value. We are not blindly marching to some state agency tune here.

The room that I was in was about 15 people (mostly developers) discussing what we could possibly do to make things better. It was also discussed that maybe the queuing application is just a bad idea, there are off the shelf solutions that could provide the functionality and maybe its worth considering other areas where we can reduce friction between the public and the state.

"and if the department's not interested in making things easier on the customers, then no app in the world is going to fix things for people)."

I make a distinction between a department's middle management and actually the front line workers who I generally believe do want to make things better. Unfortunately they don't have the power to do so, this was one of the reasons that I specified that rather than talking to management as suggested by code of Ireland. We would in fact talk to the people manning the counters, perhaps we have it all wrong. No one will know better how to improve things then the poor ****er who actually sits on the other side of the desk from the public.

Code for Ireland Launch Event

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