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Shannon Airport (Feb 2012 - Jan 2014)

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    #602
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Brennans Row wrote: »
    In order for the IAA to guarantee this particular procedure, it must have some form of agreement with Shannon Airport, in that it remains open around the clock.
    Well, hardly, as no airport can guarantee to be open 24/7.
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    Only the good people at the IAA can confirm this or otherwise.
    Well, presumably Shannon Airport management should also be able to point to something that obliges them to maintain a certain service level, if that is the case. But all of the material we have seems to fall short of that.

    I can't help noticing the way the aviation business development task force talked around the issue, as well
    http://www.djei.ie/enterprise/support/ShannonAviationBusDevTFReport.pdf

    Shannon is unique among the state airports in being open 24 hours per day, 365 days per year, as befits its status as a common diversion airport for aircraft encountering technical or medical emergencies over the Atlantic. This status also dictates the maintenance of an around-the-clock airport rescue and firefighting service. These opening hours impose an additional cost burden. Actual diversions are relatively infrequent and do not materially defray the costs of round-the-clock operation. However, the US military transit flights do make use of the extended opening hours.
    Now, the use of terms like "befits", "status" and "dictates" look like they are intended to create an impression that there's something compulsory about this service level. But that's dispelled by the related recommendation.

    Shannon Airport management should keep under review from an overall cost benefit perspective the specific costs and revenues associated with 24/7/365 operation, over and above operation in normal commercial hours.
    That very clearly suggests that the operating hours are within the determination of Shannon Airport management.

    Plus, bear in mind that Dublin Airport is 24/7/364 (i.e., it only closes on Christmas day); so the "unique" feature is simply about one day of the year.

    Now, just to be clear, my understanding is that the North Atlantic is a big, empty expanse of water and this poses a safety challenge for air navigation - because you always want an aircraft to have some reasonable chance of getting to an airport if problems develop. Suitable airports on the route are few and far between, as (apart from ocean) all you've got are sparsely populated places like Greenland and Iceland. So, indeed, Shannon would be one of the few places that an aircraft could head for, when its on this side of the pond.

    It's just my feeling that airlines are the ones that have the obligation to chart a safe route, given the technical capacity of their aircraft. So if Shannon shut up shop on Christmas Day, the onus would be on any airline flying at that time to chart a route that includes adequate emergency access to landing facilities.


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    #603
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    Only the good people at the IAA can confirm this or otherwise.

    Nobody of consequence in the IAA capable of giving this commitment would follow boards.
    Its my understanding that the AIP is supposed to be the "official" bible for aviation in Ireland.

    Suppose it was clearly stated in it that airport XXXX will be available H24 & 365 days a year.

    Then there would be an obligation on the State to ensure that airport XXXX was properly resourced.

    That is never going to happen.
    Well, hardly, as no airport can guarantee to be open 24/7.

    I am sure that within the strictest interpretation of 100% this is true.

    For all practical concerns it would be possible to have a situation where an airport is open "effectively" 100%.

    This would have a significant cost implication for someone.

    I would be sure that Ireland has obligations at an international level to aviation.

    Exactly what they are i don't know.

    Regarding an aircraft diverting from the ocean and landing Dublin.

    It stops in the wrong place or has an actual problem then everything closes.

    I am sure that the DAA would just love this.

    Real world concerns aren't always nice


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    #604
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    Brennans Row wrote: »
    In order for the IAA to guarantee this particular procedure, it must have some form of agreement with Shannon Airport, in that it remains open around the clock.
    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    Well, hardly, as no airport can guarantee to be open 24/7.
    Then a guarantee of commitment to be on standby 24/7 by Shannon Airport would probably be the more exact term.

    Such a commitment would bind the airport to be prepared for emergencies (Control Tower, Fire Fighting Crew, etc, etc) even in the event of itself experiencing temporary adverse weather conditions, resulting in its own incoming scheduled flights being diverted to other airports, as was the case last week.

    In essence we are discussing where an aircraft that has lost its communication capabilities, who then follows the IAA “Procedure A” as it stands, can therefore expect from the IAA that Shannon is on standby 24/7 for it, irrespective of it being safe enough to land there or not.

    It would be very unprofessional, if not criminal on the part of the IAA to issue such a procedure without a written commitment in place with Shannon Airport for its support.

    The new management of the airport has the potential of saving costs here, by either closing down the airport from (22:00 to 06:00) or as the Booz Report suggests the airport should look to explore ways of recovering the costs associated with its status as an emergency diversion airport.

    For example, this could include exploring the possibility for some revenue sharing with the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) or else change "Procedure A".


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    #605
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Hi Brennens and CGU, sorry, TL;DR would you care to give the rest of us a 5 sentence summary of the last 3-4 pages, cause I'm not reading all that crap.
    You two could bore for Ireland.


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    #606
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    notharrypotter wrote: »
    Nobody of consequence in the IAA capable of giving this commitment would follow boards.
    I suspect you are right. For what it's worth, I've sent them a query today (I doubt they're in the office); I'm sure they are busy people, but I'll let you know if I get an answer.
    notharrypotter wrote: »
    Regarding an aircraft diverting from the ocean and landing Dublin.

    It stops in the wrong place or has an actual problem then everything closes.
    But the point, you'll appreciate (and as mentioned before), is that aircraft do divert to Dublin, and Cork, when that's the nearest suitable airport.
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    Then a guarantee of commitment to be on standby 24/7 by Shannon Airport would probably be the more exact term.
    I'm not sure that even that washes; there's no sign of any guarantee whatsoever. I'd be wary of assuming too much, when there's so much spin in official reports on the matter. I mean, contrast the statement "Shannon is unique among the state airports in being open 24 hours per day, 365 days per year<...>" to the factual position, which is "Shannon is unique among the state airports in being open on Christmas Day <...>".
    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Hi Brennens and CGU, sorry, TL;DR would you care to give the rest of us a 5 sentence summary of the last 3-4 pages, cause I'm not reading all that crap.
    You two could bore for Ireland.
    Have a strong coffee, and I'll attempt a quick summary.

    Shannon Airport is open all day and all night, every day of the year including Christmas Day. It is quite expensive to keep up this 24/7 level of operation, and Shannon needs to save money. Some folk say Shannon is required to offer 24/7 cover for aircraft in trouble, however its not clear who (if anyone) actually places this requirement on Shannon.

    If (for the sake of argument) the IAA have placed this requirement on Shannon, the contention would be that the IAA should make some contribution to these costs (rather than Shannon reducing the level of service.) What we're trying to find is something that clearly substantiates the existence of such a requirement.

    What has been produce is IAA safety instructions which basically say that if an aircraft's radio stops working while still in the immediate area around Shannon Airport, they strongly recommend that the aircraft lands in Shannon and does not attempt a landing at any other airport. It is being contended that this recommendation implies the IAA have placed an obligation on Shannon to stay open on Christmas Day.

    I think that's seven sentences, but hopefully it meets your needs.


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    #607
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    What has been produce is IAA safety instructions
    No, it is not a "safety instruction" it is a legal requirement.
    The AIP is supposed to be the source of all things aviation.
    I suspect you are right. For what it's worth, I've sent them a query today (I doubt they're in the office); I'm sure they are busy people, but I'll let you know if I get an answer.

    Today is a bank holiday and the offices would be closed.

    Curious now can you please post the text of your query?
    working while still in the immediate area around Shannon Airport,
    and does not attempt a landing at any other airport.

    Incorrect.

    It covers the entire Irish controlled airspace.
    For an aircraft considering diversion while enroute due to a communications failure if it elects to land in Ireland then the only airport it can use is Shannon.

    I would be amazed if anyone is going to give a clear unambiguous answer as they would be making themselves a hostage to fortune.

    I would suspect that the new Shannon management will be using this "fact" to leverage significant cuts in the working conditions of their staff.

    Air Traffic Control on the ocean is a joint venture between Ireland and the UK.
    The relevant AIP for oceanic airspace is the UK AIP.
    3.17.3
    Communications failure prior to entering NAT oceanic airspace.

    3.17.3.1
    Due to the potential length of time in oceanic airspace, it is strongly recommended that a pilot experiencing communications failure whilst still in European domestic airspace does not enter the Shanwick Oceanic Control Area


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    #608
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    notharrypotter wrote: »
    Today is a bank holiday and the offices would be closed.
    I think I said that?
    notharrypotter wrote: »
    Curious now can you please post the text of your query?
    Sure thing, if I get a response I'll post question and answer.
    notharrypotter wrote: »
    For an aircraft considering diversion while enroute due to a communications failure if it elects to land in Ireland then the only airport it can use is Shannon.
    Grand; you'll appreciate, in the context of trans-Atlantic travel that's substantially the same as "immediate area around Shannon Airport". Certainly, not something that's going to be a point of disagreement with respect to the main issue.


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    #609
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    My request is
    Quote:
    Curious now can you please post the text of your query?
    your answer was
    Sure thing, if I get a response I'll post question and answer.

    Good shimmy but not what was asked.

    Please post the text of the query that you have sent to the IAA.
    I think I said that?
    Again you are good at sidestepping.
    I've sent them a query today (I doubt they're in the office); I'm sure they are busy people, but I'll let you know if I get an answer.

    The 1st of January is a bank holiday so the office staff are off.

    Your second comment implies that the question is so trivial that they would not get back to you.

    I wonder if you have actually sent anything and have cleverly given yourself an out?
    substantially the same

    Map of Ireland airspace can be found in ENR 6.1 its a little bit bigger than you seem to think.


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    #610
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    I really think a lot of this debate would be better suited in the Aviation forum that in the regional forum here.


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    #611
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    notharrypotter wrote: »
    Please post the text of the query that you have sent to the IAA.
    I certainly will, if I get a response.
    notharrypotter wrote: »
    Map of Ireland airspace can be found in ENR 6.1 its a little bit bigger than you seem to think.
    I don't see the need to persist on this point, as there's nothing really at issue. You might recall that a different version of essentially the same map was posted earlier:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88123077&postcount=586

    From that map, you'll better appreciate the point about "in the vicinity of Shannon Airport", compared to the width of the Atlantic. Again, I don't want to engage in a pointless exchange on this, particularly as many seem to be finding this level of engagement tiresome.
    Clareman wrote: »
    I really think a lot of this debate would be better suited in the Aviation forum that in the regional forum here.
    You could be right; at the same time, I find it hard to avoid a level of detail in relation to some of the points raised.


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    #612
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    London – Shannon - New York (Miles from Blighty)

    For the uninitiated, BA operates a A318 from London City Airport to New York JFK, with a refuelling stop in Shannon, twice per day.

    The first flight is able to clear US Immigration and Customs in Shannon, whilst the later flight does this on arrival at JFK.

    The advantage of the pre-clearance is that you arrive at JFK as a domestic flight and can be out of the terminal in less than 5 minutes.

    The small plane has 32 all-Club World seats in a 2-2 configuration.

    The stop at Shannon requires everyone to get off with their belongings, having their bags and shoes scanned and the proceeding through immigration which is combined with customs.

    There are two Global Entry machines and I was off the plane, through security and immigration and waiting in the little transit lounge in three minutes on this occasion.

    This explains why I like the longer flight time.

    If only every US port of arrival was like this.

    The wait at Shannon was short and after a few minutes we were pushing back ready to say Goodbye to Shannon Airport.
    A positive review for the fast service at Shannon. :)

    Hopefully the forced cutbacks in 2012 that saw US officials working fewer hours, are reversed in the near future and the later BA flight can take advantage of the pre-clearance facilities too.


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    #613
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    Aer Lingus to fly six times weekly to JFK (Business Traveller)

    Aer Lingus will add a sixth weekly service between Shannon and New York JFK from March 30.

    The Irish airline had planned to operate five direct flights per week on the route during summer 2014, but has now announced an additional sixth Service.

    Strange, nothing about it on the website from Aer Lingus.

    Then again, their Press Release page seems to be very light on news.

    Good news anyway. :)


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    #614
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    48_main.jpg

    Ukrainian Kharkiv Airlines will use Shannon Airport as a refuelling stop on their return flight from the Dominican Republic to Kiev (Limerick Post).

    Who knows, this young airline could turn out to be an interesting development.


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    #615
    Poxyshamrock
    Registered Users Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Poxyshamrock


    Have the passenger figures for 2013 been released yet?


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    #616
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    Adina Solomon interviews Joe Buckley, Patrick Edmond about Shannon Airport (Air Cargo World).

    Interestingly, Patrick Edmond says Shannon wants to be a transshipment point for cargo but not a cargo hub.

    Joe Buckley points to the potential for Irish airfreight services with Shannon Airport’s cargo vision.

    About 80 percent of Irish airfreight is trucked to UK airports, so Shannon Airport hopes to capture some of that.

    I read from another source that Vistakon in Limerick for example: 6 million pairs of lenses a day (equivalent to 1,500 air-pallets per month) are currently road-freighted to Schipol for onward air transportation to markets (70% go as far as Japan) – sufficient to provide the base traffic for regular freight lifts to originate from Shannon airport.

    I hope we will see the new Cathay Pacific Cargo B747-867F arriving here more often in the future.

    Image by Brian Buckley.

    11457559856_a9159eeabc_c.jpg


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    #617
    Poxyshamrock
    Registered Users Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Poxyshamrock


    Some 1,400,032 passengers flew through Shannon over the course of the year, up from 1,394,781 in 2012.


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    #618
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    So did the Santa-Kids promotion nudge the numbers into a small marginal plus after all?

    Either way, the falling negative trend has levelled off and the coming year should see growth due to increased capacity.

    Passengers per year.
    • 2007 (3.6 million)
    • 2008 (3.2 million)
    • 2009 (2.8 million)
    • 2010 (1.8 million)
    • 2011 (1.6 million)
    • 2012 (1.4 million)
    • 2013 (1.4 million)


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    #619
    Cosmo Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    imurdaddy wrote: »
    What a ridiculous statement to make! i pitty you with the mindset that flights for kids at christmass is only for the purpose to fiddle passenger numbers!

    Well, it appears we now know the answer. The manufacturing of over 9,000 passengers proved the difference between a rise and a fall. Even more bizarrely the actor or airport employee dressed as a fat man in a red suit will likely have been counted so many times that he alone will have been the difference between the airport hitting 1.4 million passengers or not for the year.

    If this is indeed what has happened I don't think it would be any exaggeration to suggest that Shannon have brought us to a new low in terms of Irish aviation propaganda with this desperate stunt.

    The airport might be better advised to spend their time and money assessing why, despite the opening and/or increased season of a number of routes this year, they are still hemorrhaging passengers at such a rate that, apart from the ridiculous santa flights to nowhere scheme, they wound up recording their seventh successive year of passenger losses.


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    #620
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    ^^^^^^^

    grumpy-cat-lemonade.jpg

    You're a cheery sod, ain't ya! :P


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    #621
    Poxyshamrock
    Registered Users Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Poxyshamrock


    Were the Santa flights definitely included in passenger numbers?


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    #622
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    Well, it appears we now know the answer. The manufacturing of over 9,000 passengers proved the difference between a rise and a fall. Even more bizarrely the actor or airport employee dressed as a fat man in a red suit will likely have been counted so many times that he alone will have been the difference between the airport hitting 1.4 million passengers or not for the year.

    If this is indeed what has happened I don't think it would be any exaggeration to suggest that Shannon have brought us to a new low in terms of Irish aviation propaganda with this desperate stunt.

    The airport might be better advised to spend their time and money assessing why, despite the opening and/or increased season of a number of routes this year, they are still hemorrhaging passengers at such a rate that, apart from the ridiculous santa flights to nowhere scheme, they wound up recording their seventh successive year of passenger losses.
    A marginal +00.38% increase or a marginal -00.29% decrease in passenger numbers is irrelevant.

    The overall numbers for 2012 and 2013 hit roughly the same 1.4 million mark i.e. a stabilisation of the numbers has been achieved.

    A detailed breakdown of the figures would be still interesting to know.

    See also Limerick Post.


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    #623
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    A detailed breakdown of the figures would be still interesting to know.

    i would agree and preferably from CSO data.


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    #624
    Cosmo Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Brennans Row wrote: »
    A marginal +00.38% increase or a marginal -00.29% decrease in passenger numbers is irrelevant.

    Why did they feel the need to pull the stunt then if it is so irrelevant?

    Reporting a seventh consecutive year of decline (which is what it would appear to be in reality) would certainly fly in the face of all the positive propaganda they've been drip feeding to the local media all year.


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    #625
    imurdaddy
    Site Banned Posts: 638 ✭✭✭imurdaddy


    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    Well, it appears we now know the answer. The manufacturing of over 9,000 passengers proved the difference between a rise and a fall. Even more bizarrely the actor or airport employee dressed as a fat man in a red suit will likely have been counted so many times that he alone will have been the difference between the airport hitting 1.4 million passengers or not for the year.

    If this is indeed what has happened I don't think it would be any exaggeration to suggest that Shannon have brought us to a new low in terms of Irish aviation propaganda with this desperate stunt.

    The airport might be better advised to spend their time and money assessing why, despite the opening and/or increased season of a number of routes this year, they are still hemorrhaging passengers at such a rate that, apart from the ridiculous santa flights to nowhere scheme, they wound up recording their seventh successive year of passenger losses.

    YAWN! Still double Knocks passenger numbers, and judging by that rant you have a breakdown of the numbers showing santa and his helpers were even counted in the figures? And imho the hijacking of passenger's for €10 "development fund" is the low in irish aviation.

    Also where did you get the figure of 9,000 seats?

    I dont know about you but im looking forward to another year of growth a SNN! Lots of new route's and more to come!


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    #626
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    Afaik the Santa flights cannot be included in passenger numbers as the passengers did not pay landing fees (and I doubt Ryanair paid them on their behalf)
    Will look for a source on this but it was definitely asked last month and that's what the airport said!


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    #627
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    imurdaddy wrote: »
    <...>
    Also where did you get the figure of 9,000 seats?
    <...>
    I'd take it he means 9,000 passenger movements, generated by the take-off and landing of the 24 flights involved.

    Ryanair fly 737-800s, which have 189 passenger seats. Hence, the 24 flights would have involved 4,500 seats. But passenger statistics count both arrivals and departures - it involves double counting of the same people, if you wish. If you fly somewhere on your holidays, they count you once as you fly out and then again when you return.

    So, 4,500 people get on planes and leave the airport. That's counted as 4,500 passengers departing. 40 minutes later, 4,500 people land back at the airport. That's counted as 4,500 passengers arriving.


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    #628
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    angelfire9 wrote: »
    Afaik the Santa flights cannot be included in passenger numbers as the passengers did not pay landing fees (and I doubt Ryanair paid them on their behalf)
    Will look for a source on this but it was definitely asked last month and that's what the airport said!
    It would be interesting to tie that down. Just to note, the way it was announced was
    http://www.shannonairport.ie/gns/about-us/latest-news/latest-news/13-12-10/Ryanair_and_Shannon_Airport_combine_to_make_magic_of_Christmas_come_alive_with_FREE_Santa_flights_this_weekend_and_next.aspx

    Ryanair, with the support of Shannon Airport have decided to spread the Christmas cheer <...>
    Obviously, we can read "support" any way we like, but presumably it means that Shannon either shared in the costs or simply hired Ryanair to operate the flights.


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    #629
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    the way it was announced was
    Quote:
    http://www.shannonairport.ie/gns/abo..._and_next.aspx

    Ryanair, with the support of Shannon Airport have decided to spread the Christmas cheer <...>
    Obviously, we can read "support" any way we like, but presumably it means that Shannon either shared in the costs or simply hired Ryanair to operate the flights

    Selective use of the press release:rolleyes:
    A little further down on said article.
    Said Shannon Group Chairman Rose Hynes: “We are delighted to be able to work with Ryanair to make this magic happen at Shannon Airport,

    That been said it would be nice to have clarification on the status of the Santa flights.


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    #630
    imurdaddy
    Site Banned Posts: 638 ✭✭✭imurdaddy


    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    I'd take it he means 9,000 passenger movements, generated by the take-off and landing of the 24 flights involved.

    Ryanair fly 737-800s, which have 189 passenger seats. Hence, the 24 flights would have involved 4,500 seats. But passenger statistics count both arrivals and departures - it involves double counting of the same people, if you wish. If you fly somewhere on your holidays, they count you once as you fly out and then again when you return.

    So, 4,500 people get on planes and leave the airport. That's counted as 4,500 passengers departing. 40 minutes later, 4,500 people land back at the airport. That's counted as 4,500 passengers arriving.

    Yes but in this case its 4500 pax on a one way flight! Its nonsense trying to spin it as 9000 pax! We all know it was 3000 kids plus 1500 parents.


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    #631
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    What goes up must come down.
    Yes but in this case its 4500 pax on a one way flight! Its nonsense trying to spin it as 9000 pax! We all know it was 3000 kids plus 1500 parents

    4500 passengers departed Shannon.
    The same 4500 passengers landed again in Shannon.

    The question that must be answered is quite simply.

    Are the passengers who availed of the free Santa flights counted as part of the annual total?

    In the absence of a clear yes or no there is going to be concern.


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