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Shannon Airport (Feb 2012 - Jan 2014)

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    #482
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    GCU you are right of course, Shannon is a complete basket case of an airport and everyone outside of the mid west knows that well. If it was genuinely made to stand on its own feet it would be dead in five years.

    However, criticising Shannon in the mid west is akin to sleeping with your best friends girlfriend down there...after all - as seen on this thread recently - the locals seem to actually be 'in love' with the airport at this point!

    Anyway, I think Clareman is probably right, there is a need for a separate thread on Shannon in the A&A section of boards to discuss the reality of the place. That way the delusional love in can continue unabated over here.

    Like practically everything else in the country. ;)


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    #483
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    GCU you are right of course, Shannon is a complete basket case of an airport and everyone outside of the mid west knows that well. If it was genuinely made to stand on its own feet it would be dead in five years.

    However, criticising Shannon in the mid west is akin to sleeping with your best friends girlfriend down there...after all - as seen on this thread recently - the locals seem to actually be 'in love' with the airport at this point!

    Anyway, I think Clareman is probably right, there is a need for a separate thread on Shannon in the A&A section of boards to discuss the reality of the place. That way the delusional love in can continue unabated over here.
    Just to be crystal clear, I'm not commenting one way or the other as to the management of this particular thread on this particular forum - which I'd take to be the kind of back-seat modding that's to be avoided.

    What I do want to comment on is the dual dialogue that you mention. And, indeed, that's how it is. Shannon is discussed as if it was one thing in the Mid West, while quite a different discussion is had outside the Mid West.

    I think the internet adds a dimension to this, as we can see dialogues that would probably more normally only occur within a region.

    What I'd suggest is that dual dialogue is the whole problem. We need to knit the two together. If we'd one thread in a regional forum, where all is sweetness and light, and one on the aviation forum, where a more realistic picture is discussed, it would actually demonstrate the problem. That parallel dialogue is one where we all lose, because what we need is a coherent national dialogue on these matters, that doesn't involve folk saying "I don't like what I'm hearing, I'll go off into a huddle with people who won't say such horrible things about our lovely airport."


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    #484
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but that statement just doesn't match with the plain facts of the matter. It was the Shannon lobby that inflicted harm on Dublin, not the other way round.

    I'm not saying that's a truth that's easy to live with. But it is the simple truth. You simply cannot deny the massive benefits given to Shannon for decades, and the obstacles erected to prevent other airports from developing traffic.

    My theory is still malice from the DAA, but if Shannon was given all these breaks and advantages and yet there was (in the words if Michael O'Leary) tumbleweed blowing down the runway (and indeed anyone who ever cam through Shannon likened it to a cathedral, or more apt, a tomb), maybe I might shift my theory from malice to incompetence.
    The fact that the airport nearly died under the "leadership" of the DAA and is now doing significantly better, would support that theory.


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    #485
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    My theory is still malice from the DAA, but if Shannon was given all these breaks and advantages and yet there was (in the words if Michael O'Leary) tumbleweed blowing down the runway (and indeed anyone who ever cam through Shannon likened it to a cathedral, or more apt, a tomb), maybe I might shift my theory from malice to incompetence.
    The fact that the airport nearly died under the "leadership" of the DAA and is now doing significantly better, would support that theory.

    Bit of both I would say. Inepitude from management and local politicians and the DAA had the clampers on SNN.


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    #486
    Cosmo Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    The fact that the airport nearly died under the "leadership" of the DAA and is now doing significantly better, would support that theory.

    Is it doing significantly better though? Despite all the positive spin from the management I understand that passenger numbers are only up by about 10,000 this year to the end of September on the record breaking lows of 2012 - that's less than 1% of an improvement and is well below any other year's numbers in the last decade or so - even 2011.

    With the summer season over and the extra US services finished Shannon will be hoping to hang on to that slight increase to the end of the year to avoid a seventh successive year of decline - they should manage it but not with too much to spare. The UK numbers are in free fall, the Glasgow service has been a disaster numbers wise and there is a strong dislike out there for the Aer Lingus Regional product on offer.

    2014 should be better if Ryanair base a second aircraft at Shannon, but this would be in response to the removal of the travel tax rather than anything in particular the airport management have done to help. And - of course - we have yet to hear how much of a loss the facility has made since the change of management occurred, anyone who thinks that the airport is self-sustained with the current passenger throughput is deluding themselves. I think claims that the DAA were somehow trying to destroy the airport are well wide of the mark, it was actually their funding from the profits at Dublin that were keeping the place going.


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    #487
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Some might argue that those where profits generated from diverting traffic away from Shannon and into Dublin, a perk from being in the position to be able to run one of their main competitors.


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    #488
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    No, I'm not kidding. The facts are:
    Since the 1950s, Shannon Airport has had a State agency with a specific function to develop traffic for the airport (Shannon Development, with which it is now being merged)
    Since the 1950s and up until the European Commission struck it down on State Aid grounds, Shannon had a special tax rate for businesses opening up in its designated zone.
    No other airport (and, in particular, Dublin) was allowed to build a 3,000 metre runway, specifically to eliminate any possibility of long-haul services locating anywhere else.
    Up until the Open Skies Agreement, as we know, T/A airlines were obliged to stop at Shannon - with partial relief given in the latter years of this arrangement.
    Agreements with the US authorities on customs/immigration have typically required operations to open in Shannon first, and typically Shannon is given some monopoly as part of the arrangement (such as business jets)
    More recently, Shannon is being excused of its debts which will be picked up by daa. Cork, Knock and others would be happy to have that deal.

    Can anyone dispute these plan facts, which I've stated in plain language without any "devious" or prejorative phrasing?
    Of course I would dispute that.

    Shannon Development

    You like blending out the realities that existed in the 1950s where 400,000 people emigrated.

    The only other alternative of course at that time was to migrate to Dublin in order to work in the civil service or the banks.

    The alarming pace of depopulation outside of Dublin could only be addressed by regional development.

    Sean Lemass (minister for industry and commerce) pursued new economic policies to modernize Ireland.

    In Shannon, he gave Brendan O’Regan, who was head of the airports successful sales and catering enterprise, the task of expanding the “Customs Free Airport” into areas of airfreight, industry and tourism.

    Out of that local agency a regional agency evolved to cover the lower Shannon basin which covered North Kerry, Clare, Limerick, North Tipperary, South Offaly and small areas of south Galway.

    In my opinion Shannon Development should have been given the whole Shannon River Basin (i.e. from Leitrim to Kerry) to develop.

    An important aspect of the agency was the fact it was a company.

    Which meant it could decide itself on what ventures to invest in and importantly retain its own profits for further development.

    The proper question to ask is how did Bord Failte and the IDA (both based in Dublin) fare out, when they had the remit to tackle emigration in counties like Mayo for example?

    Another positive aspect of Shannon Development was that it unified counties to cooperate better on a regional level than to get bogged down with local political interests.

    US Immigration Pre-Clearance Facility / Stopover

    The legislation regarding the stopover was created by the Irish Government to protect its Trans-Atlantic investment in Shannon Airport.

    By the early 1980s it was clear to everyone that it would be changed when all the National Carriers worldwide signed up to the Open-Skies agreement.

    Therefore in 1984 Michael Guerin started to promote the idea of having a US Immigration pre-clearance facility at Shannon to offset any business that would be lost to Dublin as a result.

    In 1986 a US pre-inspection facility was opened in Shannon on a trial basis.

    The Shannon initiative was a success and as a result it was also opened at Dublin Airport too.

    For his troubles Michael Guerin was awarded an Innovator of the Year Award for his pioneering work.

    You of course have been less flattering with him.

    Shannon Debt / Aer Rianta International

    Mr Varadkar has indicated that Shannon’s debt, estimated at €100 million been written off, was adequate compensation for a stake in ARI even though that this Shannon company had earned €450 million in profits since 1988.

    In the pdf attachment below, Valerie Sweeney interviewed Liam Skelly and Michael Guerin for a book on Shannon in 2004.

    The excerpts give a background of milestones leading up to the creation of Aer Rianta International at Shannon.

    It is clear that ARI was born out necessity and opportunity by Shannon Airport to grow business to fund itself.

    Imagine if Shannon Airport was made independent in 1988 then we would definitely not be here today discussing ARI’s ownership i.e. SNN or DAA.

    10294706605_69756fdb70_c.jpg

    This poor quality image speaks volumes for itself.

    It’s a St. Patrick Days Float in 1990 celebrating a Retailer of the Year Award for Moscow Duty-Free Shop.

    It was taken on O’Connell Street in Limerick (not O’Connell Street Dublin) and it shows the local pride associated with Shannon Airport’s achievement.


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    #489
    irishbloke77
    Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭irishbloke77


    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    Is it doing significantly better though? Despite all the positive spin from the management I understand that passenger numbers are only up by about 10,000 this year to the end of September on the record breaking lows of 2012 - that's less than 1% of an improvement and is well below any other year's numbers in the last decade or so - even 2011.

    With the summer season over and the extra US services finished Shannon will be hoping to hang on to that slight increase to the end of the year to avoid a seventh successive year of decline - they should manage it but not with too much to spare. The UK numbers are in free fall, the Glasgow service has been a disaster numbers wise and there is a strong dislike out there for the Aer Lingus Regional product on offer.

    2014 should be better if Ryanair base a second aircraft at Shannon, but this would be in response to the removal of the travel tax rather than anything in particular the airport management have done to help. And - of course - we have yet to hear how much of a loss the facility has made since the change of management occurred, anyone who thinks that the airport is self-sustained with the current passenger throughput is deluding themselves. I think claims that the DAA were somehow trying to destroy the airport are well wide of the mark, it was actually their funding from the profits at Dublin that were keeping the place going.



    Ah, hold on a minute. Shannon only got its "independence" on January 1st this year. As winter schedules were already almost half over, all they could do was work on the Summer schedules onwards and they seem to have done this well. They also seem to be doing pretty well on the upcoming winter schedule compared to last with the extra Aer Lingus Lanzarote and boston flights. They have reversed the trend, so that has to be good.

    Anyhow, in relation to all the other posts going on here about the past and Dublin verses Shannon debate etc..., could we try and leave it all to another part of boards.ie such as history etc.. Surely now we should all, AS A COUNTRY, look for shannon to do well, both for Shannon's local industry and as a small bit of competition to Dublins transatlantic market.

    Please can we all move on from the historically debates and see how they do now and for the future. Thanks.


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    #490
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    GCU you are right of course, Shannon is a complete basket case of an airport and everyone outside of the mid west knows that well. If it was genuinely made to stand on its own feet it would be dead in five years.

    However, criticising Shannon in the mid west is akin to sleeping with your best friends girlfriend down there...after all - as seen on this thread recently - the locals seem to actually be 'in love' with the airport at this point!

    Anyway, I think Clareman is probably right, there is a need for a separate thread on Shannon in the A&A section of boards to discuss the reality of the place. That way the delusional love in can continue unabated over here.
    Could you list those posts so that we know exactly what you writing about?

    Are there any positive posts you liked on this Shannon Airport thread so far?

    By the way, I’m still waiting for a reply to your hit-and-run remark to one of my posts.

    See posts 316, 318.


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    #491
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    The fact that the airport nearly died under the "leadership" of the DAA and is now doing significantly better, would support that theory.
    But, sure, Dublin Airport is also doing significantly better since the split. All that confirms is that the split was a good idea.
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    Of course I would dispute that.
    But, sure, your post doesn't contradict anything I've said. I've simply pointed out that Shannon has received massive incentives for decades. I don't see where you are disputing that. What you've left out of your account, incidently, is the obstacles erected for others; policy was based on this peculiar idea that the way to bring benefits to Shannon was to impoverish other parts of the country.

    You might note, on a point of detail, that the main purpose of Shannon Development on its foundation in the 1950s (SFADCo as its was known then) was to generate traffic for the airport - industrial development was just seen as one tool to generate traffic; in other words, regional development was meant to support the airport, rather than the airport supporting regional development. The emphasis of SFADCo changed in later decades, to such an extent that many in the Mid West don't actually know that it retained the function of generating traffic for the airport. But that's really just a footnote.
    irishbloke77 wrote: »
    Please can we all move on from the historically debates and see how they do now and for the future. Thanks.
    I agree the future is what matters most. But it is also important to remember how we got here. In particular, its important to challenge this extraordinary delusion that Shannon, in some way, was denied support and had obstacles put in its path when exactly the opposite was the case.


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    #492
    PSol
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭PSol


    I follow this thread with interest and I've been frequently tempted to post recently but I've resisted as I doubt I can do myself or the mid-west justice in the face of many of the recent posters on this thread.

    However, there is one thing I'm always curious about and perhaps now is the time to ask.

    Would the general population outside of the Mid-West be happy to see Shannon close? Maybe GCU..., Cosmo Kramer, mayomaffia you could give your personal insights? Do you think it would be better for the country (and I don't mean just Mayo ;))?

    It's something I sense over and over again but I don't really understand it. There must be at least 50,000 people employed in Clare, Limerick and beyond, directly or indirectly because of the airport. I don't know enough of the economics of any funding the airport receives now, but would it really be better for the country if any region lost even more employment?

    Ok, so if Shannon closed, anyone who could still afford to would have to use other airports and any funding would get diverted. But would this outweigh the increased unemployment, emigration, general regional demise?


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    #493
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    PSol wrote: »
    Would the general population outside of the Mid-West be happy to see Shannon close?
    I'd feel that the strategy of the split is the right one; once Shannon's fortunes are it's own, and no obstacles are placed in the way of other airports, I don't have a deep preference between whether it manages to stay open or close. I'd just have the general preference that anyone would have, that it's better that people - whatever their job - get to stay in their job.
    PSol wrote: »
    There must be at least 50,000 people employed in Clare, Limerick and beyond, directly or indirectly because of the airport.
    I'd actually doubt that dependency. I think there's a gap between what people feel the airport delivers, and what it actually delivers.

    And it could be argued that seeing the region's fortunes as being entwined the airport hasn't been a good strategy. At the time SFADCo was being established, there were some voices that wondered if the main impact of the Shannon Zone incentives would be to undermine the development of Limerick City. I think it could be argued that it hasn't been completely helpful in that respect.

    An airport is just a tool. It's either useful, or it isn't. If it can't make a profit, it probably isn't useful. (And that's just a general comment - conceiveably, a debt-free Shannon will find a commercial future.)


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    #494
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    PSol wrote: »
    I follow this thread with interest and I've been frequently tempted to post recently but I've resisted as I doubt I can do myself or the mid-west justice in the face of many of the recent posters on this thread.

    However, there is one thing I'm always curious about and perhaps now is the time to ask.

    Would the general population outside of the Mid-West be happy to see Shannon close? Maybe GCU..., Cosmo Kramer, mayomaffia you could give your personal insights? Do you think it would be better for the country (and I don't mean just Mayo ;))?

    It's something I sense over and over again but I don't really understand it. There must be at least 50,000 people employed in Clare, Limerick and beyond, directly or indirectly because of the airport. I don't know enough of the economics of any funding the airport receives now, but would it really be better for the country if any region lost even more employment?

    Ok, so if Shannon closed, anyone who could still afford to would have to use other airports and any funding would get diverted. But would this outweigh the increased unemployment, emigration, general regional demise?

    Since you asked so nicely :p I think the biggest mistake was building Shannon airport in Shannon, An even bigger mistake was the investment in a new updated unused terminal.

    Shannon is tagged as an airport for the west, but it is not for the west or North west(its only 1/4 of the way from Cork City - Letterkenny). Even if you weren't taking any of the 25 destinations from Knock, Dublin is closer than Shannon for much of the West and North west and has better prices and multiple times more destinations.

    It is a mere 60 miles from Limerick city to Cork city. Yet we have an airport beside Limerick city one beside Cork city and one in Kerry(yet no motorway between the two cities :confused:). You would not get that in the most corrupt countries in the world. Individually these airports by any reasonable level are underserving the region, limited destinations, infrequent flight times needing constant state support just to stay open.

    Together as one they would work, One airport at the current size of Shannon would of been ideal(capacity 5 million). It would have had the population density to provide decent destinations and frequent flight times. It would also be able to provide additional services due to the numbers using the airport.

    I know it has gone too far at this stage, but it a massive pity that the money that was spent on Shannon Cork and Kerry in the past 20 years was not concentrated in one airport for the south/South West. Instead we will continue with three underused airports but with the sizeable population in the South and South West been massively underserved.


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    #495
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Since you asked so nicely :p I think the biggest mistake was building Shannon airport in Shannon,

    The airport was built first and then the town


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    #496
    Stellaluna
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭Stellaluna


    With regard to Rinneana/Shannon being chosen as a location for an airport; was it not because the area was the most reliably fog free part of the West coast (if not all of Ireland)? This may not be such an important factor now but it probably was a good reason at the time.

    The location of Prestwick airport in Ayrshire was also chosen for being the most reliably fog free area of the UK - Prestwick hasn't fared any better than Shannon though, despite the long runway and lack of fog it was recently nationalised as the private owners (Infratil) couldn't find a buyer.


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    #497
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    Quintessentially Aviation (QA) has announced that it will develop its first Irish VIP lounge for corporate jet passengers at Shannon Airport.

    The new lounge will form part of the US pre-clearance facility at the airport, which aims to attract private and corporate jet investors from the Middle East and central Europe into this area with the hope of increasing the 4,500 annual jet movements currently coming through Shannon.

    According to the Independent they intend to unveil it at this week’s Las Vegas Aviation Show.

    The 1,750 sq ft facility – designed by Dublin-based firm Cohn Rhattigan – will be completed by the year's end.

    Looking at their designs you would get the impression that they are moving sections of Dromoland Castle Hotel to the airport. ;)

    Here is a link to the airport's July news article.


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    #498
    Cosmo Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Brennans Row wrote: »
    Could you list those posts so that we know exactly what you writing about?

    I figured it would be pretty clear that the reference was to Jhcx's recent posts in particular. In general, it seems clear that in this thread criticism of Shannon airport is heavily frowned upon - described as 'trolling' even. To say 'it's not an aviation forum' is a strange response to someone discussing an airport in a thread about said airport. I don't think anyone who comes on here and is negative about the airport is necessarily 'trolling', after all this is an open discussion forum, people are entitled to an alternative view.
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    Are there any positive posts you liked on this Shannon Airport thread so far?

    Any post that provides news and information about the airport is good for me, it's just that the thread's slant on the news is very balanced in favour of the airport most of the time. Now, that's understandable to a point as this is the Clare forum, but I think people here can benefit from seeing that not everyone necessarily holds the same views about Shannon. For what it's worth i think it's a nice airport but it needs to start paying its way and not expecting a 100 million euro bail out every time it runs into trouble because it can't make ends meet. If it needs to downsize to become self-sufficient, so be it. The extra services Shannon is occasionally used for can be provided elsewhere on these islands.
    Brennans Row wrote: »

    By the way, I’m still waiting for a reply to your hit-and-run remark to one of my posts.

    See posts 316, 318.

    The comment was aimed at Liam Skelly, not you. Although it could be easily aimed at anyone who agrees with the nonsense he was spouting in that article - but I have no idea whether you were in agreement or not.
    Psol wrote: »
    Would the general population outside of the Mid-West be happy to see Shannon close? Maybe GCU..., Cosmo Kramer, mayomaffia you could give your personal insights? Do you think it would be better for the country (and I don't mean just Mayo )?

    No, I don't want to see Shannon close. There is certainly enough of a catchment across south Galway, Clare, Limerick and Tipp to justify an international airport. I just want to see it put on an even playing field with every other airport and made to pay its own way to the same extent that other airports must. As a country we can ill-afford to lose the money that has been poured down the drain at Shannon in recent years. The 'Shannon Lobby' are tiresome - they remind me of some of the unions in this country, wasting others' time and money to progress their own personal agenda.

    Incidentally, the Prestwick comparison in the last post is very apt. Prestwick failed as a private entity and has been bought out/bailed out (take your pick) by the Scottish Government. The people of Ayrshire hold Prestwick in a similar regard to how those in the mid-west see Shannon. My prediction (which I know will not be popular in this thread) is that Shannon will not succeed as a separate entity to the DAA and will ultimately be bailed out (again) by the Irish taxpayer at some point in the future and brought back under the DAA umbrella, as is currently happening at Prestwick. Serious streamlining of the facility - which would be difficult for many in the mid-west to stomach - would be required to make it viable as a standalone entity, I just don't see anyone involved at the airport having the stones to make those difficult decisions based on what we have seen so far this year.


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    #499
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    I figured it would be pretty clear that the reference was to Jhcx's recent posts in particular. In general, it seems clear that in this thread criticism of Shannon airport is heavily frowned upon - described as 'trolling' even. To say 'it's not an aviation forum' is a strange response to someone discussing an airport in a thread about said airport. I don't think anyone who comes on here and is negative about the airport is necessarily 'trolling', after all this is an open discussion forum, people are entitled to an alternative view.
    You spoke of locals.

    Oh great, Jhcx acted the maggot in one post and seriously he has only posted here 4 times from a total of 500 posts.

    That can’t be your basis surely?

    Listen, there are many things written here that I might disagree with, but to say my replies are nothing more than frowning is a bit rich.

    If my posts tend to accentuate the strengths of Shannon Airport, it might be down to my “glass is half full” attitude to life.

    The stakes are now very high for Shannon Airport and therefore people need to know exactly what Shannon has, in order to realize what it could lose if we don’t get it right.

    I’m pretty confident that Shannon will innovate new business, just as it did many a time over the last 75 years.
    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    The comment was aimed at Liam Skelly, not you. Although it could be easily aimed at anyone who agrees with the nonsense he was spouting in that article - but I have no idea whether you were in agreement or not.
    I’ll ask you again, could you elaborate why Liam Skelly, in your opinion was spouting nonsense when he accused Transport Minister Leo Varadkar of misrepresenting the facts in relation to the DAA’s right to ownership of the company.

    I mean is there anybody better qualified to contradict Leo Varadkar than the founder of ARI?


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    #500
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Stellaluna wrote: »
    With regard to Rinneana/Shannon being chosen as a location for an airport; was it not because the area was the most reliably fog free part of the West coast (if not all of Ireland)?
    That may well have been part of the reason for selecting the present site. A key consideration, at the time, was the belief that the airport would need to include a flying boat base to replace Foynes, in addition to serving land-based aircraft. There's a passing reference to it here, from a Dail debate in 1942
    http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0089/D.0089.194212100041.html

    The difficulty of procuring equipment has held up work on the construction of the flying-boat base at Rhynanna. It is considered necessary and desirable that we should provide, not merely adequate safety equipment at Foynes, but also all the other facilities necessary to make it a first-class airport, even though we contemplate that at a later stage the terminal of the Atlantic air services will be transferred to Rhynanna.


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    #501
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    That may well have been part of the reason for selecting the present site. A key consideration, at the time, was the belief that the airport would need to include a flying boat base to replace Foynes,

    http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,533480,662196,4,10

    The link to osi map
    South of Shannon terminal is a lagoon.
    In 1942 intercontinental travel between Europe and America was still the preserve of flying boats.
    There's a passing reference to it here, from a Dail debate in 1942


    it was 20 years before jet travel proper started to become a reality.
    In fact the first B707 aircraft by Aer Lingus were not intercontinental aircraft but the shorter ranger transcontinental B720.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_720


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    #502
    Cosmo Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Brennans Row wrote: »
    If my posts tend to accentuate the strengths of Shannon Airport, it might be down to my “glass is half full” attitude to life.

    Do you not feel it would be better to take a more rounded view of any situation rather than having a "glass is half full" attitude to everything? A nationwide "glass is half full" attitude to life up to 2008 wasn't mush use when the **** hit the fan - that attitude vanished fairly quickly as can be seen in the Irish Economy section of boards.ie.
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    The stakes are now very high for Shannon Airport and therefore people need to know exactly what Shannon has, in order to realize what it could lose if we don’t get it right.

    I don't believe that the stakes are now very high, if Shannon succeeds following the last bailout that's great, if it doesn't then it will just get another bailout of some form or other. The stakes are about as low as they can be really.
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    I’ll ask you again, could you elaborate why Liam Skelly, in your opinion was spouting nonsense when he accused Transport Minister Leo Varadkar of misrepresenting the facts in relation to the DAA’s right to ownership of the company.

    I think the point of my post is fairly clear from the first paragraph of the article:

    SHANNON Airport starting life as an independent entity free of €100 million in debt in no way compensates for the company being “stripped” of Aer Rianta International (ARI), according to the first director general of the airport retailer.

    Mr Skelly believed that, in addition to being bailed out to the tune of €100 million by the tax payer, they should be presented with ARI as well. Sorry, but if you are on the recieving end of a nine figure bailout, you're not the one calling the shots. Incredible arrogance from Mr Skelly to suggest otherwise in any sense. Especially since, as noted by GCU in post 315,:
    ARI is a State asset. It doesn't belong to Shannon Airport. It's funding came out of Aer Rianta, and the overwhelming bulk of the Aer Rianta income came from outside Shannon.


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    #503
    Geomy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    There's great plan's for the Shannon region, if you thought the Shannon region was doing well during the 90s

    I seen some of the plans in place and the Shannon Airport and Rinenna area will be thriving within 10 year's

    There will be a huge boost in tourism,recycling/dismantling, cargo distribution and logistics. ..

    Shannon will be booming, look how The John Lennon Airport turned out. ...


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    #504
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    notharrypotter wrote: »
    In 1942 intercontinental travel between Europe and America was still the preserve of flying boats.
    Indeed, there was no particular reason to believe that, three years later, flying boats would be an irrelevance. I'm not sure that the Rineanna flying boat base was ever actually completed, but the need to accommodate flying boats was a factor in the site selection (as I understand it).

    And, indeed, by the mid 1950s people were starting to express concern about the likely impact of the development of jet liners on the airport.
    http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0157/D.0157.195606050004.html

    Dáil Éireann - Volume 157 - 05 June, 1956
    Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Suitability of Shannon Airport for Jet Airliners.

    <...>Mr. McQuillan: Is the Minister aware that many of the spokesmen for the various airline services at the moment have made it quite clear that Shannon is now looked upon purely as a diversionary airport? In view of that outlook, or opinion, it is quite possible that when jet airliners come into operation Shannon will be bypassed altogether.<...>


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    #505
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    Do you not feel it would be better to take a more rounded view of any situation rather than having a "glass is half full" attitude to everything? A nationwide "glass is half full" attitude to life up to 2008 wasn't mush use when the **** hit the fan - that attitude vanished fairly quickly as can be seen in the Irish Economy section of boards.ie.
    I think you are getting your idioms mixed up.

    I would say it’s more apt to the hard times we are in.

    For me it means to positively appreciate what one has and to build on it.
    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    I don't believe that the stakes are now very high, if Shannon succeeds following the last bailout that's great, if it doesn't then it will just get another bailout of some form or other. The stakes are about as low as they can be really.

    The stakes are high for Shannon because there are about 1,600 aviation jobs at the airport plus with the industrial estates, bringing employment up to 10,000 jobs.

    Shannon has one of the largest clusters of North American investments outside of Dublin.

    Another 10,000 people reside in the town along with all its urban infrastructure.

    I believe it contributes about €600 million to the economy.

    We can’t afford to get wrong!
    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    I think the point of my post is fairly clear from the first paragraph of the article:

    SHANNON Airport starting life as an independent entity free of €100 million in debt in no way compensates for the company being “stripped” of Aer Rianta International (ARI), according to the first director general of the airport retailer.

    Mr Skelly believed that, in addition to being bailed out to the tune of €100 million by the tax payer, they should be presented with ARI as well. Sorry, but if you are on the recieving end of a nine figure bailout, you're not the one calling the shots. Incredible arrogance from Mr Skelly to suggest otherwise in any sense. Especially since, as noted by GCU in post 315,:
    In the text that you highlighted, I can’t see the words “in addition” or "bailed out".

    What’s more irritating, is that your quote does not appear in the article that we were supposedly to be discussing.

    However I took the trouble and found it.

    If you read that article properly, his message is very clear in that the €100 million debt write-off was a poor trade-off for ARI.

    Furthermore, I asked you to elaborate your opinion, instead you rely on a post from DCU to make your point.

    I have posted a lot of detailed material relating to Liam Skelly / ARI and if you fail to see the merits of what he is highlighting then I can’t elaborate much further with you on this.


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    #506
    opinionated3
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭opinionated3


    Fine gaels Tony mulcahy reporting major announcement from ryanair re Shannon tomorrow. ...


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    #507
    Cosmo Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Brennans Row wrote: »
    I think you are getting your idioms mixed up.

    I would say it’s more apt to the hard times we are in.

    For me it means to positively appreciate what one has and to build on it.

    Sean Quinn probably thought the same...
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    The stakes are high for Shannon because there are about 1,600 aviation jobs at the airport plus with the industrial estates, bringing employment up to 10,000 jobs.

    Shannon has one of the largest clusters of North American investments outside of Dublin.

    Another 10,000 people reside in the town along with all its urban infrastructure.

    I believe it contributes about €600 million to the economy.

    As I said, there are no stakes, Shannon will undoubtedly be bailed out if and when its unviability in its current form results in it needing to go back to the government, cap in hand, yet again, as has always been the case.
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    We can’t afford to get wrong!

    You make it sound like you are on the Airport board or something. If you have a role in the development of the airport (aside from copying and pasting airport related propaganda onto this forum) please let us know.
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    In the text that you highlighted, I can’t see the words “in addition” or "bailed out".

    I didn't see him suggesting that the airport should pay back the 100 million either, so I reckon it's safe enough to assume he doesn't feel the airport's debts should be paid off by the airport.

    I don't expect that the Limerick Leader, Limerick Post or any other paper in the mid-west would use the work bailout either - their readers probably wouldn't appreciate it so much. Doesn't change the fact that that's what it was though, a bailout - plain and simple.
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    If you read that article properly, his message is very clear in that the €100 million debt write-off was a poor trade-off for ARI.

    ARI wasn't Shannon's to trade off, so his argument is complete nonsense.
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    Furthermore, I asked you to elaborate your opinion, instead you rely on a post from DCU to make your point.

    Yes, it was a post that showed that the position of ARI had been made clear almost 200 posts earlier in the thread, yet you still continue to peddle your mis-informed views on the subject.
    Brennans Row wrote: »
    I have posted a lot of detailed material relating to Liam Skelly / ARI and if you fail to see the merits of what he is highlighting then I can’t elaborate much further with you on this.

    The only thing his comments highlights is how far out of touch the Shannon lobby is with the reality of Shannon Airport, which only re-inforces my view that the airport will never be able to take the difficult decisions needed to stand on its own feet.

    I'm reading in a few different places now that there may be a press conference as soon as tomorrow at Shannon to announce new Ryanair routes for next summer, with possibly an increase in terms of the number of aircraft based at the airport. I hope the Irish taxpayer is looking forward to picking up the bill for this again, just as they had to last time around.


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    #508
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    As regards Aer Rianta International
    Aer Rianta was founded in Shannon Airport, in Shannon the first Irish Coffees were sold, in Shannon the idea of a Duty Free was formed and set up in SHANNON in 1951
    When Aer Rianta founded its first international base in Moscow in the 1980's it was staffed by personnel from... you've guessed it... SHANNON
    Aer Rianta in Shannon created the concept of Duty Free shopping
    They were the first in the entire world
    So yes, a massive chunk of ARI's annual profits are down to business models and concepts generated in SHANNON

    So, lets see why Shannon airport and its supporters feel hard done by, in the loss of ARI to the DAA...

    Lets look at Apple
    Based in California, there are now Apple stores in every developed country in the world (pretty much)
    Every Apple store is unique but they are all based on the model created in California and their sales are based on Innovations generated by California based staff
    For years each store internationally made their own profits and a % is fed back to head office
    Now.. lets say the Apple Store in London is bigger, brighter & more profit generating that its California Cousin because there has been a higher level of investment in the store (based on higher local costs, the Bond street location and higher cost of labour in London)
    Lets say the California store isn't doing so well... it needs financial assistance from London & Paris to stay afloat because people in California are all "Appled out"
    Should the California based store be cut off, to go off on its own and let the London store take all of California's international profit % just because they have been giving the US Store financial assistance for the past few years?
    Given that the California store was the beginning of the Apple enterprise internationally do they not deserve a chunk of the pie?
    I would argue they do
    And that is why I feel that the DAA taking over ARI in exchange for releasing Shannon Airport was tantamount to theft (albeit government sanctioned)


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    #509
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    I'm reading in a few different places now that there may be a press conference as soon as tomorrow at Shannon to announce new Ryanair routes for next summer, with possibly an increase in terms of the number of aircraft based at the airport. I hope the Irish taxpayer is looking forward to picking up the bill for this again, just as they had to last time around.

    Well, in the end it's all about the bigger picture. Frankfurt Hahn has never made a bean in profits and yet it is subject to major investment, both in the airport and the region at large.
    The thinking behind this is, if the gain for the region outweighs the losses of the airport, it is worth it.
    Sometimes (or even a lot of the time) public projects (or indeed private ones) don't make money and indeed lose it hand over fist. Anyone who wants to run public transport, healthcare, education and the likes for profit, should be shot, because the end result is what counts.
    Public transport, for example, is traditionally loss-making. If some "smart" politician decided to get rid of it, the knock on effects would be far worse than the savings made.
    But anyway, you're predicting that Shannon will fail, we'll come back to that in a year or two...


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    #510
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Cosmo Kramer wrote: »
    I'm reading in a few different places now that there may be a press conference as soon as tomorrow at Shannon to announce new Ryanair routes for next summer, with possibly an increase in terms of the number of aircraft based at the airport.
    And, in fairness, the future plans do need to be allowed to play out. There's no point to independence, otherwise.

    That said, I do take your point about where the ultimate exposure will lie if losses mount. You'd have to have some concern over headlines like this:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/call-for-100m-loan-facility-for-shannon-group-1.1563466

    Call for €100m loan facility for Shannon Group
    As to Ryanair, there may be a sense of deja vu when we look back to 2004
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/kfqlidcwojkf/

    Low-cost carrier Ryanair is to invest €180m to create its 12th major European base at Shannon Airport, Ireland, it emerged today.<....> “This base revolutionises the future growth of Shannon Airport,” Mr O’Leary said.
    “In less than two months since their appointment the board of Shannon has won this biggest ever single investment in Irish tourism, despite intense competition from seven other low cost European airports.”
    But, look, the new managment need to be given their chance. So far, it's not going too bad.


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    #511
    Mr. G
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 4,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Mr. G


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Well, in the end it's all about the bigger picture. Frankfurt Hahn has never made a bean in profits and yet it is subject to major investment, both in the airport and the region at large.
    The thinking behind this is, if the gain for the region outweighs the losses of the airport, it is worth it.
    Sometimes (or even a lot of the time) public projects (or indeed private ones) don't make money and indeed lose it hand over fist. Anyone who wants to run public transport, healthcare, education and the likes for profit, should be shot, because the end result is what counts.
    Public transport, for example, is traditionally loss-making. If some "smart" politician decided to get rid of it, the knock on effects would be far worse than the savings made.
    But anyway, you're predicting that Shannon will fail, we'll come back to that in a year or two...

    Exactly. The amount of spin off jobs created because of the airport is huge.

    When Dell layed off 1,900 jobs for Poland, that actually cost us 6,000 because of all the spin off industries (catering etc). Shannon would be the same I'm sure, even though we may not realise it. Cisco have an R&D centre in Galway, Buffalo technology, GE in Shannon etc.


This discussion has been closed.
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