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Ireland will exit bailout in December

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  • 13-10-2013 12:18am
    #1
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-will-exit-bailout-in-december-29655195.html


    "The Taoiseach told the Fine Gael national conference in Limerick: “Tonight I can confirm that Ireland is on track to exit the EU/IMF/ bail-out on December 15th.
    “And we won't go back. It won’t mean that our financial troubles are over.”"


    Well, well, well. They said it couldn't be done. Some good news at long last.

    In September 2008 the FF government introduced the bank guarantee that saved Anglo-Irish bank at the expense of the Irish taxpayer. By November 2010 the bill was so big that we had to call in the IMF to save us. The doom-mongerers (McWilliams, Constantin etc) said that it was only a matter of time before we would be forced to default. The default never happened.

    Instead, three years later, we are now posed to exit the bailout. The FG/Labour coalition have managed to turn things around to the extent that it looks like Ireland can stand on its own two feet again.

    This has not been achieved without pain. Jobs have been lost, pay has been cut, benefits have been cut. Was it worth it? Does the FG/Labour coalition deserve any credit? Does FF deserve all the blame? Was it inevitable once the Troika came in? Doesn't the fact that Portugal is seeking deeper in the mess at least give some credit to the Government?

    Or should we just have given two fingers to the world as the SF/ULA experts would have had us do?

    Whatever, just as the bailout was a significant day in Irish history, the exit from the bailout is one too and we will then have the opportunity to look back and with hindsight ask the questions as to how, why and who were responsible or culpable.


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    #2
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,462 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    We need to make sure that the necessary safeguards are in place to prevent a repeating of the mistakes that led to the bailout in the first instance. Unfortunately this is something that is being overlooked at the moment, in my view anyway. Do we have a plan in place for when we actually leave the bailout regarding sticking to sustainable economic growth, or do we face the prospect of unnecessary give-away budgets and the likes again?

    Once we exit the bailout it will no longer be possible for politicians to point to the presence of the troika to ensure that necessary reforms are driven through, even when they are unpopular. Leaving the bailout is obviously fantastic news, but lets be weary too. We have a long way to go with our recovery yet, and I don't think we should be playing up exiting the bailout all that much for fear of raising peoples expectations too high. We have known that we would exit the bailout in December for a long time now, so lets not get carried away with PR.


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    #3
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    We need to make sure that the necessary safeguards are in place to prevent a repeating of the mistakes that led to the bailout in the first instance. Unfortunately this is something that is being overlooked at the moment, in my view anyway. Do we have a plan in place for when we actually leave the bailout regarding sticking to sustainable economic growth, or do we face the prospect of unnecessary give-away budgets and the likes again? .

    Surely keeping Fianna Fail out of government would be a great first step.?


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    #4
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,150 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    We need to make sure that the necessary safeguards are in place to prevent a repeating of the mistakes that led to the bailout in the first instance. Unfortunately this is something that is being overlooked at the moment, in my view anyway. Do we have a plan in place for when we actually leave the bailout regarding sticking to sustainable economic growth, or do we face the prospect of unnecessary give-away budgets and the likes again?

    Its not true to say its being overlooked completely. The government is trying to provide a more stable and reliable tax base with the water cherges, LPT and the new broadcasting charge. Part of the problem was that tax revenue relied too much on stuff like stamp duty and VAT which fluctuate too much. But I gree more needs to be done, especially in relation to reforming the way our financial sector is regulated.


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    #5
    flutered
    Registered Users Posts: 6,668 ✭✭✭flutered


    central and local goverment requires some serious filleting. unvouched expenses, unrealistic wages, when local admin earn more that most heads of state then we have to borrow more than we take in on taxes, we cannot tax our way out of this, neither can we blame welfare, we need growth plus realistic goverment cutbacks, the health portifolio also requires realistic overhaul.


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    #6
    3rdDegree
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭3rdDegree


    flutered wrote: »
    central and local goverment requires some serious filleting. unvouched expenses, unrealistic wages, when local admin earn more that most heads of state then we have to borrow more than we take in on taxes, we cannot tax our way out of this, neither can we blame welfare, we need growth plus realistic goverment cutbacks, the health portifolio also requires realistic overhaul.


    Cutting back on government admin won't change much in terms of the country's finances. Obviously, health and welfare changes would have a significant effect.


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    #7
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    3rdDegree wrote: »
    Cutting back on government admin won't change much in terms of the country's finances. Obviously, health and welfare changes would have a significant effect.
    Strongly disagree. I think there is huge money disappearing into "local government" that could be far better used.

    I hear enough stories from my mother who works in a council office to know that there's tremendous waste going on.

    We don't need a HR dept or dedicated IT dept for every tiny local authority. Such departments can be amalgamated en masse. There's just no stomach for the necessary redundancies required to realise the MASSIVE savings that could be made in local government.


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    #8
    flutered
    Registered Users Posts: 6,668 ✭✭✭flutered


    3rdDegree wrote: »
    Cutting back on government admin won't change much in terms of the country's finances. Obviously, health and welfare changes would have a significant effect.
    in my co council, there exists the following
    1 county manager
    1 asst county manager
    1 county secetary
    3 fire officer
    ? planning officers
    an office with assorted officers for the divisional offices
    all the above have brand spanking new offices
    county hall was built in a blaze of glory, an all glass structure, unfortunatly the roof was not pidgon or seagull proof, it had to become bird proof at a cost
    the all glass building had to be kept cool on warm days, then warm on the cool days, imagne the cost.
    google has the income and pension costs of all the above, muntiply it by roughly 50, it is mind boggling.


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    #9
    Red Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭Red Crow


    raymon wrote: »
    Surely keeping Fianna Fail out of government would be a great first step.?

    And keep the guys in who were calling for more wreckless spending during the Celtic Tiger years?

    Fine Gael are no different to Fianna Fáil.


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    #10
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Red Crow wrote: »
    And keep the guys in who were calling for more wreckless spending during the Celtic Tiger years?

    Fine Gael are no different to Fianna Fáil.

    Why do so many conveniently forget this?

    Mr Kenny stood in the wing after every budget whinging that the 'giveaway budgets' didn't give away enough.

    In short, we'd be in bigger trouble now.

    (No lover of FF for clarity)


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    #11
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Red Crow wrote: »
    And keep the guys in who were calling for more wreckless spending during the Celtic Tiger years?

    Fine Gael are no different to Fianna Fáil.

    I am no fan of FG but this sounds like it is straight from the FF propaganda desk.

    "Fine Gael would have been the same / worse."
    " we all partied"
    "Lehmans did it"
    "Cowen did it"
    " economic collapse was global "
    " New Fianna fail "
    "reform"

    Insert your own catchphrase here with no link or reference.


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    #12
    Gambas
    Registered Users Posts: 846 ✭✭✭Gambas


    Red Crow wrote: »
    And keep the guys in who were calling for more wreckless spending during the Celtic Tiger years?
    Banjo String wrote: »
    Why do so many conveniently forget this?

    Mr Kenny stood in the wing after every budget whinging that the 'giveaway budgets' didn't give away enough.

    In short, we'd be in bigger trouble now.

    (No lover of FF for clarity)

    A pair of first preferences for Green Party no doubt, seeing as the Greens were the only party to consistently argue against the unsustainability of the property boom and the planning system that drove it.

    Because it's what you said in opposition and not what you did in government that counts, right?


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    #13
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,462 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    I think the free GP care for all children under five that has been revealed today reflects government rushing to implement a policy, that they even admit has not been fully thought out or costed, in time for next years local elections.

    I think free GP care for all children under five is a fanatstic idea in theory, but our economic circumstances really do not justify for it to be implemented at the moment. People on the margins are losing their medical cards, yet we are about to give a medical card to every child under the age of five no matter whether their parents are millionaires or not.

    Be weary of auction politics is all I will say. It is very naive for anyone to think that that sort of politics, which clearly belongs in the past, was only isolated to one party. Watch this story grow over the coming years as the costs for the scheme swell way above its anticipated budget.


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    #14
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    flutered wrote: »
    3 fire officer
    Oh yeah, the classic example!

    Northern Ireland has one fire brigade and 1 Chief Fire Officer. How many does the RoI have? Why can't we have brigades based on the provinces or similar? Crazy waste of money going on.


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    #15
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,462 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    murphaph wrote: »
    Oh yeah, the classic example!

    Northern Ireland has one fire brigade and 1 Chief Fire Officer. How many does the RoI have? Why can't we have brigades based on the provinces or similar? Crazy waste of money going on.

    Never understood why we can't have a National Fire Service instead of each local authority having to maintain its own brigade.


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    #16
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    murphaph wrote: »
    We don't need a HR dept or dedicated IT dept for every tiny local authority. Such departments can be amalgamated en masse. There's just no stomach for the necessary redundancies required to realise the MASSIVE savings that could be made in local government.
    I don’t disagree with your point, but I’d hate to see funding to local government cut. Spent more wisely, definitely, but not cut.


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    #17
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    raymon wrote: »
    I am no fan of FG but this sounds like it is straight from the FF propaganda desk.
    It’s a valid point – very naive to assume that FF were the cause of all of Ireland’s ills. They were simply giving the people what they wanted. I’m by no means defending populism, but I don’t believe for a second that Labour, FG, or whoever would not also have caved to the demands of the electorate.


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    #18
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    People on the margins are losing their medical cards, yet we are about to give a medical card to every child under the age of five no matter whether their parents are millionaires or not...
    ...during a baby boom.


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    #19
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    djpbarry wrote: »
    It’s a valid point – very naive to assume that FF were the cause of all of Ireland’s ills. They were simply giving the people what they wanted. I’m by no means defending populism, but I don’t believe for a second that Labour, FG, or whoever would not also have caved to the demands of the electorate.


    But you can't boil it all down to populism either.
    For example Cowen playing golf with his Anglo buddies Sean FitzPatrick , Fintan Drury ,Gary McGann and former regulator Alan Gray wasn't populism.


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    #20
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    raymon wrote: »
    But you can't boil it all down to populism either.
    People get the government they deserve. The electorate were prepared to tolerate shenanigans as long as they had their generous welfare and the value of their semi-d in Lucan kept climbing ever upwards.


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    #21
    Red Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭Red Crow


    raymon wrote: »
    I am no fan of FG but this sounds like it is straight from the FF propaganda desk.

    "Fine Gael would have been the same / worse."
    " we all partied"
    "Lehmans did it"
    "Cowen did it"
    " economic collapse was global "
    " New Fianna fail "
    "reform"

    Insert your own catchphrase here with no link or reference.

    Hold on there for a second. You're wrong. I'll never vote Fianna Fáil but not will I ever vote for Fine Gael who would of done equally if not more damage to our economy.

    A lot of people like yourself just woke up one morning and decided that Fine Gael pressing for more spending, less tax etc never happened. Fine Gael never went into the Dail during those years and asked Bertie why weren't they increasing tax, why were they spending so much...

    My point is that Fine Gael were equally as useless in opposition as Fianna Fáil were in government. Both are as useless as each other and Fine Gael have proven that in their time in government.

    Kenny is as useless as Cowen, Bertie etc. if you want to forget that all that didn't happen then be my guest. But you're lying to yourself.


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    #22
    Red Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭Red Crow


    raymon wrote: »
    But you can't boil it all down to populism either.
    For example Cowen playing golf with his Anglo buddies Sean FitzPatrick , Fintan Drury ,Gary McGann and former regulator Alan Gray wasn't populism.

    What point are you trying to make?

    What about the connection between Matt Moran and Enda Kenny? You sure sound like a Fine Gael supporter. You're spouting this 'axis of collusion' nonsense that Enda Kenny tried to feed to electorate. Kenny was no different to the rest of them.


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    #23
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    For those of you with German, this appeared in Sueddeutsche Zeitung some day during the week.

    http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/direkte-bankenhilfen-irland-als-koalitionshindernis-fuer-grosse-koalition-1.1791400


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    #24
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Red Crow wrote: »

    Kenny is as useless as Cowen, Bertie etc. if you want to forget that all that didn't happen then be my guest. But you're lying to yourself.

    Looks like you have been reading the Sunday independent too much.


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    #25
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,134 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    djpbarry wrote: »
    It’s a valid point – very naive to assume that FF were the cause of all of Ireland’s ills. They were simply giving the people what they wanted. I’m by no means defending populism, but I don’t believe for a second that Labour, FG, or whoever would not also have caved to the demands of the electorate.

    I'd be fairly certain they would have caved too judging by their focus during the 2007 General Election. Were they urging restraint and slowdown at that juncture?


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    #26
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    Godge wrote: »
    Doesn't the fact that Portugal is seeking deeper in the mess at least give some credit to the Government?

    The Portuguese government had much of their program thrown out by their supreme court as being unconstitutional, something our government hasn't had to deal with.


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    #27
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    raymon wrote: »
    Surely keeping Fianna Fail out of government would be a great first step.?

    Not really. If in a boom FF doesn't promise to cut taxes and increase spending then someone else will and the public will shower them with votes.


    What you need to fix is the last part.


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    #28
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    sarumite wrote: »
    The Portuguese government had much of their program thrown out by their supreme court as being unconstitutional, something our government hasn't had to deal with.

    All I hear from the Portuguese people I know is ranting about their Government and the cuts they want to bring in. It's quite similar to chatting to Irish people a few years back at the start of the bailout actually.


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