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Secularist Education Advocating Banning Religion?

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    #62
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    J C wrote: »
    Quote Wikipedia:-
    "A special motion to introduce the legislation was passed a month after a two-day conference was held in which three American Christians asserted that homosexuality is a direct threat to the cohesion of African families. Several sources have noted endemic homophobia in Uganda has been exacerbated by the bill and the associated discussions about it.[citation needed]

    The bill, the government of Uganda, and the evangelicals involved have received significant international media attention as well as criticism and condemnation from many Western governments and those of other countries, some of whom have threatened to cut off financial aid to Uganda."

    This legislation seems to be most draconian ... but please don't make accusations that it is Christian-inspired based on an article that says that three (un-named) 'Christians' and (indeterminate) 'evangelicals' are behind it.

    ... and I do have common ground with you in condemning unreservedly such illiberal legislation ... and its potentially horrific follow-on effects on a vulnerable minority.

    I believe I said that was just the starting point in your journey into what is going on in the name of Christianity. I am disappointed that you seem to wish to quibble about the contents of a wikipedia article rather than investigate deeper.


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    #63
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,143 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    J C wrote: »
    Not all you guys personally ... but how can we have any assurance that your anti-theist views won't dominate the running of these schools?

    Because atheists aren't legally allowed to practice religious discrimination, but religionists are? Provided it's within the 'ethos' of their school of course.

    And of course all state funded schools are legally obliged to teach religious education (as opposed to religious instruction.)

    If you want to find out what a secular school is like, pop into your local ET - provided you live near one of the few places that has one.

    Why am I not sure that this is a joke?

    CONTEXT!

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #64
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I believe I said that was just the starting point in your journey into what is going on in the name of Christianity. I am disappointed that you seem to wish to quibble about the contents of a wikipedia article rather than investigate deeper.
    I don't need to investigate it further to condemn it at face value, as not in line with Christian morality to kill or jail people on the basis of their sexual orientation.
    ... and I'm only quibbling with your contention that it is Christian inspired legislation.


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    #65
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Because atheists aren't legally allowed to practice religious discrimination, but religionists are? Provided it's within the 'ethos' of their school of course.

    And of course all state funded schools are legally obliged to teach religious education (as opposed to religious instruction.)

    If you want to find out what a secular school is like, pop into your local ET - provided you live near one of the few places that has one.
    It could be a very interesting encounter ... if the children started asking me about my Creationist beliefs!!!:)


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    #66
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    J C wrote: »
    I don't need to investigate it further to condemn it at face value, as not in line with Christian morality to kill or jail people on the basis of their sexual orientation.

    Are you publicly condemning these things?

    Obviously not as you were not even aware they are happening yet you were quick to come in here and speak of what all Christians believe and play the I am being persecuted by you people card as if we are all one hive mind.


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    #67
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    J C wrote: »
    It could be a very interesting encounter ... if the children started asking me about my Creationist beliefs!!!:)

    It would result in a lot of children laughing at your ignorance.


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    #68
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,143 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    J C wrote: »
    I don't need to investigate it further to condemn it at face value, as not in line with Christian morality to kill or jail people on the basis of their sexual orientation.
    ... and I'm only quibbling with your contention that it is Christian inspired legislation.

    That's funny, the people who do the killing and jailing say that what they are doing is to protect Christian morals - and they can quote you bible chapter and verse all day long.
    So, how are we supposed to use a book as the basis for morality (or to shape an 'ethos' for a school) when differing groups of believers can come to diametrically opposed positions based on this book?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #69
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    J C wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with the detail of what you say. Perhaps you should set up a thread on this topic.
    ... but the fact that Hitler killed both Born Again Christians and Homosexuals (as well as, of course, Jews and other minorities) means that you and I have common ground and common cause where threats are made to any vulnerable person or group of persons.

    ... and I have no desire to 'sling stones' at anybody ... I just want to extend Christian love to everybody.

    If its unrequited ... I can accept that too.:)

    Did you really just try to Godwin to make it seem like Christians and Homosexuals are easily persecuted?

    And how can you possibly claim this? I'm still shocked you seem to be completely unaware of the goings on in the world and the outright hatred and threats aimed towards the LGBT Community by Christianity of various backgrounds.

    What do you do with your time that seems to completely and utterly cut you off from all forms of News? No BBC, RTE, or papers in your world?

    Even Fox News reports this stuff!


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    #70
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Are you publicly condemning these things?
    I have just done so on the Boards ... how much more public do you want my condemnation to be?
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Obviously not as you were not even aware they are happening yet you were quick to come in here and speak of what all Christians believe and play the I am being persecuted by you people card as if we are all one hive mind.
    I'm not omniscient of every issue ... and ironically, sometimes you guys do behave in such a very cohesive way that it could amount to 'group think' on certain issues.


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    #71
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    ninja900 wrote: »
    That's funny, the people who do the killing and jailing say that what they are doing is to protect Christian morals - and they can quote you bible chapter and verse all day long.
    We are now in the period of God's Grace ... so, if they want to jail or kill Homosexuals, they have no basis for it in Jesus Christ or His teaching ... to love one another.
    ninja900 wrote: »
    So, how are we supposed to use a book as the basis for morality (or to shape an 'ethos' for a school) when differing groups of believers can come to diametrically opposed positions based on this book?
    Just because Christians don't seem to be as united around every dogma as Secularists seem to be, is no reason to discriminate against them.


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    #72
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    J C wrote: »
    I have just done so on the Boards ... how much more public do you want my condemnation to be?

    I'm not omniscient of every issue ... and ironically, sometimes you guys do behave in such a very cohesive way that it could amount to 'group think' on certain issues.

    Posting under an anonymous name on Boards hardly qualifies as public condemnation - those who call themselves Christians openly and publicly call for homosexuals to be executed.

    You are a Christian - condemn them in the same media they use and reclaim your religion if you really hate what they are doing that much - I suspect you won't, - either way don't you dare try and tell me you are being persecuted by us.


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    #73
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Did you really just try to Godwin to make it seem like Christians and Homosexuals are easily persecuted?
    Neither groups are 'easily persecuted' ... but it has happened in the past ... and the price of freedom (including freedom from persecution) is eternal vigilence.
    Sonics2k wrote: »
    And how can you possibly claim this? I'm still shocked you seem to be completely unaware of the goings on in the world and the outright hatred and threats aimed towards the LGBT Community by Christianity of various backgrounds.
    I'm unaware of any hatred personally ... but all kinds of 'stuff' undoubtedly happens to all kinds of people and groups ... but this doesn't make it right ... and there are laws and police there to deal with them.

    Sonics2k wrote: »
    What do you do with your time that seems to completely and utterly cut you off from all forms of News? No BBC, RTE, or papers in your world?

    Even Fox News reports this stuff!
    Don't watch much TV ... too many factoids for my tastes.


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    #74
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    J C wrote: »
    Neither groups are 'easily persecuted' ... but it has happened in the past ... and the price of freedom (including freedom from persecution) is eternal vigilence.

    Homosexuality is far more openly persecuted across the world than Christianity is.

    I'm not denying the existence of persecution in a few places towards Christians, but it pales in comparison to what happens to homosexuals.

    When was the last time a woman was raped "fúck the Christian out of her".
    J C wrote: »
    I'm unaware of any hatred personally ... but all kinds of 'stuff' undoubtedly happens to all kinds of people and groups ... but this doesn't make it right ... and there are laws and police there to deal with them.

    Quite often, those laws are put in place against homosexuals, making it a crime punishable by jail or death.

    J C wrote: »
    Don't watch much TV ... too many factoids facts for my tastes.

    Fixed.

    I'm sorry JC, I'm all for freedom of religion and expression, but you are honestly plain loopy if you truly think Homosexuals and Christians are just as persecuted and hated as eachother.

    Cop on, lad.


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    #75
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Posting under an anonymous name on Boards hardly qualifies as public condemnation - those who call themselves Christians openly and publicly call for homosexuals to be executed.
    Who are these people?
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    You are a Christian - condemn them in the same media they use and reclaim your religion if you really hate what they are doing that much - I suspect you won't, - either way don't you dare try and tell me you are being persecuted by us.
    I haven't claimed persecution ... its more of an irritation ... and the disrespect that I object to.
    Can we not all treat each other with respect ... and a little bit of love and understanding?


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    #76
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,143 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    J C wrote: »
    Just because Christians don't seem to be as united around every dogma as Secularists seem to be, is no reason to discriminate against them.

    What discrimination?
    Protecting children of atheist (And minority religion) families from forced indoctrination by the majority religion isn't discrimination.

    Anyway, go visit that ET school - they do have religious instruction on the premises - but attendance is entirely voluntary according to the parents wishes, takes place outside the normal school day and is funded by the appropriate parish/faith community.
    During school hours, there is religious education which does not promote any particular belief/non-belief as superior to others.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #77
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Homosexuality is far more openly persecuted across the world than Christianity is.

    I'm not denying the existence of persecution in a few places towards Christians, but it pales in comparison to what happens to homosexuals.

    When was the last time a woman was raped "fúck the Christian out of her".
    I don't know who is most persecuted?
    ... but if you happen to be the one abused because of your sexual orientation or religion, in a sense, it doesn't really matter that some other minority may be suffering even more than yours.

    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Quite often, those laws are put in place against homosexuals, making it a crime punishable by jail or death.
    ... but more often, thankfully, the law protects rather then persecutes. Christians always pray for such just protective laws for everybody.

    wrote:
    Originally Posted by J C
    Don't watch much TV ... too many factoids facts for my tastes.

    Sonics2k
    Fixed.
    ... so you watch Fox TV then!!!:)

    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I'm sorry JC, I'm all for freedom of religion and expression, but you are honestly plain loopy if you truly think Homosexuals and Christians are just as persecuted and hated as eachother.

    Cop on, lad.
    I never saw a bad word spoken about Homosexuality on the A & A ... but I have observed plenty of bad language, to say the least, being used about Creationists!!!


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    #78
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    JC you'll find the vast majority of posters on this forum if not all, Support one's right to practise their faith. However I draw a line at the state making a specific religion the primary faith for the majority of schools. The state exists to serve the people however providing specified religious education is up to parents and the religious institutions. They should not form law or education around a religion.

    Nobody has proposed that they teach that Christianity or any other religion is a load of bollocks that's just you jumping to conclusions. I think you may dislike the fact that they would be teaching about religions on equal footing rather than prioritising a specific deity.


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    #79
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Can we drop the homosexuality tangent? There's a megathread for that somewhere.

    J C, maybe you'd scan ninja's post and tell us the problem with this system:
    ninja900 wrote: »
    Anyway, go visit that ET school - they do have religious instruction on the premises - but attendance is entirely voluntary according to the parents wishes, takes place outside the normal school day and is funded by the appropriate parish/faith community.
    During school hours, there is religious education which does not promote any particular belief/non-belief as superior to others.


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    #80
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Dades wrote: »
    Can we drop the homosexuality tangent? There's a megathread for that somewhere.

    J C, maybe you'd scan ninja's post and tell us the problem with this system:

    Apologies Dades - that was my fault. I was just irked by the playing of the persecution card once again.


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    #81
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Hey no bother. There was baiting going on, to be sure.


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    #82
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    ninja900 wrote: »
    What discrimination?
    Protecting children of atheist (And minority religion) families from forced indoctrination by the majority religion isn't discrimination.
    ... so how do we 'protect' Christian children from forced indoctrination by Secular Humanism in Secular Schools?
    You are proposing to replace one form of indoctrination (that is roughly in line with the faith position of 90% of the population) with another form of indoctrination (that is in line with less than 1% of the population) ... and you think that this is progress?
    ninja900 wrote: »
    Anyway, go visit that ET school
    There is no ET school near me - so I know nothing about them.
    ninja900 wrote: »
    - they do have religious instruction on the premises - but attendance is entirely voluntary according to the parents wishes, takes place outside the normal school day and is funded by the appropriate parish/faith community.
    During school hours, there is religious education which does not promote any particular belief/non-belief as superior to others.
    Is this to be the model for the new Secular schools??
    I'm sure that all of this sounds eminently reasonable to an anti-theist ... but to a Theist, like me, it doesn't.
    What you are saying is that Christians can bring their children to church on their own time (which isn't any sort of concession anyway). You're also saying that all forms of religious expression and practice aren't tolerated during school hours ... but crucially the basic beliefs of Atheistic Humanism are given free reign.


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    #83
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    JC you'll find the vast majority of posters on this forum if not all, Support one's right to practise their faith. However I draw a line at the state making a specific religion the primary faith for the majority of schools. The state exists to serve the people however providing specified religious education is up to parents and the religious institutions. They should not form law or education around a religion.
    ... what is the problem with the expression of religion in school and attending religious events anyway?
    I have known Christians in my time who would never set foot in the church of a different denomination ... and they were rightly called bigoted and sectarian for making a point of not doing so.
    ... so why shouldn't the same descriptor be applied to people who won't allow their children attend religious services ... or even be in the same room when children of a different faith are praying or practicing their faith?
    If Secularists want to set up special schools then so be it ... but they shouldn't claim that while banning religious expression from these schools that they are somehow inclusive or indeed liberal and pluralist.


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    #84
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,724 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    ... so how do we 'protect' Christian children from forced indoctrination by Secular Humanism in Secular Schools?
    You are proposing to replace one form of indoctrination (that is roughly in line with the faith position of 90% of the population) with another form of indoctrination (that is in line with less than 1% of the population) ... and you think that this is progress?
    You're worried about indoctrination but are still arguing against secularism. Talk about your mixed messages.
    There is no ET school near me - so I know nothing about them.

    Is this to be the model for the new Secular schools??
    I'm sure that all of this sounds eminently reasonable to an anti-theist ... but to a Theist, like me, it doesn't.
    What you are saying is that Christians can bring their children to church on their own time (which isn't any sort of concession anyway). You're also saying that all forms of religious expression and practice aren't tolerated during school hours ... but crucially the basic beliefs of Atheistic Humanism are given free reign.
    ... and what is the problem with the expression of religion in school and attending religious events anyway?
    I have known Christians in my time who would never set foot in the church of a different denomination ... and they were rightly called bigoted and sectarian.
    ... so why shouldn't the same descriptor be applied to people who won't allow their children to attend religious services ... or even be in the same room when children of a different faith are praying or practicing their faith?

    It's unreasonable to suggest that Christian parents bring their kids to church on their own time? I would think it a small sacrifice to try ensure eternal salvation for their children.:confused:

    Secular schools have religious education classes so you are incorrect by stating that religious expression is banned from schools. You compound this error by incorrectly claiming that atheism is given free reign.

    Why should state schools be lumbered with the religious upbringing of Christian parents who lack the sincerity of their beliefs?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #85
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    koth wrote: »
    You're worried about indoctrination but are still arguing against secularism. Talk about your mixed messages.
    I'm not worried about indoctrination ... all faith positions (including the Secular Faith Position) engage in it ... what I want is equal time devoted to each form of indoctination ... or no indoctrination (including Secular indoctination).
    koth wrote: »
    It's unreasonable to suggest that Christian parents bring their kids to church on their own time? I would think it a small sacrifice to try ensure eternal salvation for their children.:confused:
    What I said it that it is no concession at all to tell Christian parents that they can do something that they will be doing anyway. Its an empty gesture ... like giving them all the Rabbits in the country ... only they have to catch them themselves!!!
    koth wrote: »
    Why should state schools be lumbered with the religious upbringing of Christian parents who lack the sincerity of their beliefs?
    Why should the state be encumbered with the promotion of Secular Humanism either?
    koth wrote: »
    Secular schools have religious education classes so you are incorrect by stating that religious expression is banned from schools. You compound this error by incorrectly claiming that atheism is given free reign.
    The orthodoxy of these programmes could be questioned, if it is Secularists who are drawing them up and delivering them ... and especially if they don't allow Christian pastors to visit the premises.


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    #86
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,724 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    I'm not worried about indoctrination ... all faith positions (including the Secular Faith Position) engage in it ... what I want is equal time devoted to each form of indoctination ... or no indoctrination (including Secular indoctination).
    No indoctrination is secularism as it give no special place to any belief/religion/atheism etc. To continue to fight against it while continually proposing the very thing you're fighting against as a solution is self-defeating.
    What I said it that it is no concession to tell Christian parents that they can do something that they will be doing anyway. Its an empty gesture ... like giving you all the Rabbits in the country ... only you have to catch them yourself!!!

    Why should the state be encumbered with the promotion of Secular Humanism either?
    It wouldn't be encumbered with the promotion of humanism. It would be teaching about various worldviews/religions, i.e. an inclusive and pluralist teaching plan. It would not be promoting any ideology. It would just be providing information about each of them.

    It would be up to the students (and their parents to some extent) to decide what one is for them.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #87
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,434 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    You are aware that there exist secular Christians, Muslims, Hindus...


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    #88
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,724 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    The orthodoxy of these programmes could be questioned, if it is Secularists who are drawing them up and delivering them ... and especially if they don't allow Christian pastors to visit the premises.

    "Especially if they don't allow Christian pastors to visit the premises"? Pastors, rabbis, imans etc. should have no special privilege to call into schools, much like any other citizen.

    If the religious education lesson plan allows for a visit by a religious leader then I see no reason why they wouldn't be asked to visit. Much like the police are sometimes called to speak to a civics class about illegal drugs.

    I presume that seeing as the pastors are allowed in to speak about Christianity, you would have no problem with an atheist speaking to the class about atheism?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #89
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    TheChizler wrote: »
    You are aware that there exist secular Christians, Muslims, Hindus...
    I'm fully aware ... but there is the stubborn fact that 90% of the Irish population still define themselves as Christians.


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    #90
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    koth wrote: »
    "Especially if they don't allow Christian pastors to visit the premises"? Pastors, rabbis, imans etc. should have no special privilege to call into schools, much like any other citizen.
    They should have (and currently do have) every right to do so ... because the vast majority of parents (of all faiths) want them to have such access.
    koth wrote: »
    If the religious education lesson plan allows for a visit by a religious leader then I see no reason why they wouldn't be asked to visit. Much like the police are sometimes called to speak to a civics class about illegal drugs.
    Pastors have every right to inspect what members of their faiths are being taught and whether it is in line with their faith. Parents, as members of churches, fully support their church leaders in this, as it is a key part of church governance.
    koth wrote: »
    I presume that seeing as the pastors are allowed in to speak about Christianity, you would have no problem with an atheist speaking to the class about atheism?
    No problem whatsoever. This would be desirable IMO for a full liberal education.


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    #91
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,724 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    They should have (and currently do have) every right to do so ... because the vast majority of parents (of all faiths) want them to have such access.
    To what end? They're not teaching staff.
    Pastors have every right to inspect what members of their faiths are being taught and whether it is in line with their faith. Parents, as members of churches, fully support their church leaders in this, as it is a key part of church governance.
    As do the parents, but that does not give them the right to randomly wander into classes as if they were inspectors from the department of education. They (the parents) can talk to their kids about their lessons and inspect the learning materials if they are concerned. If they are unhappy about it, they can bring it up with the school staff and/or board.

    State schools should not have to tailor information to suit a religious group. If one group said it was okay to beat your wife or kill homosexuals, should kids be taught such things in the classroom? They can go jump as far as I'm concerned. The classroom is no place to imposing a religious dogma. It's a place of learning.
    No problem whatsoever.
    That makes it all the more confusing as to why you oppose secularism.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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