Secularist Education Advocating Banning Religion?

J C · 03-09-2013 1:37am

ninja900 wrote: »

No, secularism is not a belief. I shouldn't have to explain this yet again so I won't.

Why did you say that you think that your beliefs will not be respected in schools ... if your secularism isn't made up of beliefs?

ninja900 wrote: »

My viewpoint on secularism in society is a separate issue to my viewpoint on the existence or otherwise of gods.

When you have schools telling the children of atheist parents that the existence of god(s) is a fact, that is certainly not respecting their position on the question of belief.

There is nothing disrespectful about me saying to you that the existence of God is a fact ... just like there is nothing disrespectful in you saying to me that the existence of God isn't a fact.
We're both respectfully expressing genuinely held points of view.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2013 1:46am

J C wrote: »

Why did you say that you thinkthat your beliefs will not be respected in schools ... is your secularism isn't made up of beliefs?

No, not belief in the sense of belief in god(s) or not. Which is the sense to be expected in this forum (not the 'I believe it might rain tomorrow' sense.)

There are many religious secularists. If you were living in a majority Muslim society, you'd probably be one, too.

Again, why am I having to explain this?

There is nothing disrespectful about me saying to you that the existence of God is a fact ... just like there is nothing disrespectful in you saying to me that the existence of God isn't a fact.
We're both respectfully expressing genuinely held points of view.

Hint: you're not a teacher and I'm not a four year old.

Cabaal · 03-09-2013 8:25am

J C, can I just ask,

Do you view your responses in such a low light and that they are so poorly written that you feel the need to bold certain text?

In all honestly you might as well TYPE IN CAPS for the type of desperation that comes from posts that include bolded text, its actually very annoying to read and clearly the vast majority of boards.ie users feel their responses are just fine without doing this very annoying addiction to their posts.

Delirium · 03-09-2013 8:41am

J C wrote: »

I am just looking at what is being said by some of secularists on this forum.
Could I say that you may be 'over-playing your hands' slightly when it comes to School Governance.
To tell over 90% of the population that you are going to forcibly indoctinate their children into the beliefs of less than 1% of the population whilst showing total disrespect for the beliefs of the 90% could be called 'overplaying ones hand' ... I think ... but I could be wrong.

Any reassurance that Christianity will be respected if secularism controls our schools isn't supported by much evidence of respect for the beliefs of Christianity on this (largely Secular) forum. Please point out any examples of respect for the beliefs of Christianity on this forum, if I am wrong about this contention.
... or is it the case perhaps, that the views expressed on this forum aren't typical of Irish secularism in general?

By the way it is OK to show disrespect for something that you disrespect ... but if you do ... then don't be surprised if the people whose beliefs you disrespect don't allow you to educate their children.

An internet forum is not the same as the classroom. It would be wholly inappropriate to spend time in a classroom ridiculing religion as part of a religion class. No one is suggesting anyone is indoctrinated into any ideology, unlike the current situation where the majority of schools attempt to indoctrinate kids into Christianity.

J C wrote: »

It all depends on what you are "teaching kids about the major religions".
The way that theistic beliefs are held up to ridicule on this forum doesn't auger well for respect to be shown to theistic beliefs in schools run by people with some of the anti-theist views expressed on this forum.

But we aren't attempting to teach children about religion here, it's a discussion forum. You're attempting to misrepresent what actually would happen in a secular school.

Some may say that religious beliefs should be held up to ridicule ... and I have no difficulty with this point of view per se ... but I don't want somebody who holds it taking my place in school to educate my children ... and I don't think that many of my fellow Christians would want it either.

Nobody wants such a thing, it definitely doesn't fit within a secular school.

J C wrote: »

I also believe in the separation of belief and state.
... but a state mandating Secular Schools for everyone is favouring the beliefs of Secular Humanism ... and actively imposing them on everyone else who don't believe in them.

(leaving aside your continued misunderstanding of secular schools) How do you resolve the current problem of the state 'favouring' Christianity? Or is that okay with you because it's your brand of religion?

I also believe in freedom of religion ... but this is not the same thing as freedom from religion i.e the eradication of religion from the public sphere.
All citizens should be treated equally and their beliefs (provided they aren't illegal) should be equally respected.

You're espousing the ideals of secularism yet consistently arguing against it.

J C wrote: »

Quite frankly I don't ... schools should largely reflect the composition of the school community, when it comes to the time devoted to the teaching of different religions ... along with the basic beliefs of the major world religions (and none), even if they aren't all represented within the school community.

Careful, JC, that's secular talk.

kylith · 03-09-2013 10:00am

J C: if the only school which you could send your child to was a Hindu school in which your children would be taught that Shiva et al were fact and hinduism the one true religion and, even though you don't believe Hinduism yourself, there was no way you could opt your child out of those religious instruction classes; would you be happy about it?

eyescreamcone · 03-09-2013 11:43am

J C wrote: »

I said that all citizens should be treated equally and their beliefs (provided they aren't illegal) should be equally respected.

As a Creationist I find myself belonging to a minority belief (just like Secularists also belong to a minority belief in Ireland).
... so we do have somethingin common!!!:D

I don't expect the school where my children attend 'to turn itself inside out' just because I have decided to send my children there. I accept that my views will not be central within the school ... but I do expect (and I have found that it happens) that my beliefs (and those of my children) are respectedwithin the school.

I have found that respect tends to breed respect ... and the reverse is also often the case.

That's just batsh1t crazy!

I hope with proper scientific education your ilk disappear into the sunset.

Creationism in 2013 :mad:

Genghiz Cohen · 03-09-2013 12:02pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

That's just batsh1t crazy!

I hope with proper scientific education your ilk disappear into the sunset.

Creationism in 2013 :mad:

You new here?

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2013 12:10pm

J C wrote: »

Quite frankly I don't ... schools should largely reflect the composition of the school community, when it comes to the time devoted to the teaching of different religions ... along with the basic beliefs of the major world religions (and none), even if they aren't all represented within the school community.

That's why, for example, I don't expect our local school to devote the same time to Creationism as they do to teaching other aspects of Christianity upon which every Christian is agreed upon.

So all of your talk of equality was mere puff. You don't actually want equality - you want the current system to remain in place where all citizens pay for an education system that favours one religion regardless of people's personal beliefs.

41,000 different Christian denominations - it would seem there isn't much Christians actually agree upon. Members of 40,000 of those denominations were certainly not agree that Roman Catholicism should be taught as the true religion to their children - yet that is what happens in more than 90% of our State Funded national schools so please stop trying to claim you represent the views of all Christians.

swampgas · 03-09-2013 12:13pm

J C wrote: »

Thank you for your frankness about where this is all going ... if Secularists, like you, have their way ...
... mandatory indoctination of all children into the tenets of Secular Humanism ... with no room for Christianity!!!

You couldn't make this stuff up ... and if you did, nobody would believe you.
... but here it is in print on the A & A.

Nope. A secular school teaches maths, languages, history, geography, science, etc. It might cover religion but from an objective viewpoint, with a view to helping children understand more about the customs and beliefs of their neighbours. It should absolutely not indoctrinate, i.e. insist that a particular version of religion is absolute truth. Nor should a secular school attack religion or try to push atheism.

The whole idea is that families of all religions and none can send their kids to one school where they can be taught together and socialize together. What we have in common should dictate the curriculum, not what we fight over.

There is no reason why parents and clergy cannot take primary responsibility for indoctrinating their own children, if that's what they really want to do. In a secular country they are free to do that in their own time.

*edit* apologies for being so slow to respond to this post; JC was on my ignore list.

inocybe · 03-09-2013 1:30pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

That's just batsh1t crazy!

I hope with proper scientific education your ilk disappear into the sunset.

Creationism in 2013 :mad:

I would love if someone tried to teach my 12 year old about creationism, he's planning to become a palaeontologist and he would have a lot to say! His class will be spending a criminal amount of school time preparing for confirmation all year this year, he will be the only one not participating. What a waste of his time.

Sarky · 03-09-2013 1:53pm

Oh, if you want a laugh, dig up J C's impotent ramblings about evolution. Don't read too much though, his utter cluelessness will eventually become very, very depressing.

Genghiz Cohen · 03-09-2013 5:31pm

Sarky wrote: »

Oh, if you want a laugh, dig up J C's impotent ramblings about evolution. Don't read too much though, his utter cluelessness will eventually become very, very depressing.

Here is a TL:DR:

CATS POPPING OUT OF DOGS!
AS MANY ELECTRONS IN THE UNIVERSE ON A SNAIL OR SOMETHING!!!
I CANT BELIEVE ITS NOT DESIGNED!!!
FELLOW TRAVELLERS!!!
:P:confused::eek::p:p;):rolleyes:

Sarky · 03-09-2013 5:35pm

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Good job, that man.

PopePalpatine · 03-09-2013 6:21pm

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Here is a TL:DR:

Thanks, you've spared us all a headache.

J C · 03-09-2013 9:12pm

koth wrote: »

An internet forum is not the same as the classroom. It would be wholly inappropriate to spend time in a classroom ridiculing religion as part of a religion class. No one is suggesting anyone is indoctrinated into any ideology, unlike the current situation where the majority of schools attempt to indoctrinate kids into Christianity.

I agree that an internet forum is not the same as a classroom. However, it does give us a flavour for how the Forum participants feel about certain issues and their levels of tolerance and respect for alternative points of view.

Irish schools are largely Christian run ... and Secularists want to establish Secular Schools ... mostly by taking over exisiting Christian-run schools.
Some, like swampgas, even want all schools to be Secular ... with no alternative allowed.
... so visiting the two Irish forums representing Atheism/Secularism and Christianity on the Boards is potentially insightful in relation to what is likely to happen if Atheists/Agnostics/Secularists gain the control over our schools, that they desire ... and determining the truth about where Christianity is at, in Ireland
The A & A Forum contains threads that mostly scoff at religion and its practitioners (as distinct from presenting and discussing whatever positive aspects that Secularism and Atheism itself may have). Myself and other Christians who have visited this forum have been called morons or liars and our beliefs have been ridiculed ... not a very positive image to be projecting, from the 'wannabe' educators of our children, if I may say so.

Over on the Christianity Forum people help each other to find Churches and the time of church services as they debate the finer and indeed the more controversial points of Christian Doctrine in a relatively civil manner ... until some anti-theist turns up to tell them that religious people are deluded or morons or mad ... or all three.
Can you see why Christians, even those with an historical animosity towards Roman Catholocism, (and all its baggage) find the alternative of schools being run by people with the deeply anti-theist attitudes shown towards religion on the Boards, to be an unpalatable prospect ?
I say this with a heavy heart, as I know many liberal Secularists who have a 'live and let live' attitude to people of faith and their beliefs ... but they don't seem to turn up very often on the A & A (and I wonder why?).

koth wrote: »

Careful, JC, that's secular talk.

I guess I must be a 'religious secularist' then ... but this still doesn't stop me being treated as some kind of pariah and my faith being ridiculed by my 'fellow Secularists' on the Boards.ie!!!:eek:

... the following is just a tiny example of what I'm talking about in terms of intolerance towards me and my faith ... not a hint of welcoming diversity or Christians here ... and eyescreamcone is certainly not alone when it comes to such pronouncements

eyescreamcone wrote: »

That's just batsh1t crazy!

I hope with proper scientific education your ilk disappear into the sunset.

Creationism in 2013 :mad:

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2013 9:28pm

Wow, J C seems to think that we good denizens of A&A will be running the schools.

How'd that work?

Home Ec would have nothing but recipes for biscuits - and babies

Science would be compulsory

Two Minute Hate at the end of every class towards a religious figurehead picked at random

What else?

J C · 03-09-2013 9:32pm

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
Quite frankly I don't ... schools should largely reflect the composition of the school community, when it comes to the time devoted to the teaching of different religions ... along with the basic beliefs of the major world religions (and none), even if they aren't all represented within the school community.

Koth
Careful, JC, that's secular talk.

Bannasidhe (in response to the same quote from me above)
So all of your talk of equality was mere puff. You don't actually want equality - you want the current system to remain in place where all citizens pay for an education system that favours one religion regardless of people's personal beliefs.

Could Koth please talk to Bannasidhe ... and when you have agreed on whether I'm a closet Secularist ... or an RC Bishop ... please come back and share your answer with us.

J C · 03-09-2013 9:35pm

ninja900 wrote: »

Wow, J C seems to think that we good denizens of A&A will be running the schools.

Not all you guys personally ... but how can we have any assurance that your anti-theist views won't dominate the running of these schools?

ninja900 wrote: »

How'd that work?

Home Ec would have nothing but recipes for biscuits - and babies

Science would be compulsory

Two Minute Hate at the end of every class towards a religious figurehead picked at random

What else?

Why am I not sure that this is a joke?

Sarky · 03-09-2013 9:37pm

Oh, lots of reasons. Not the reason you think, though.

swampgas · 03-09-2013 9:39pm

J C wrote: »

Irish schools are largely Christian run ... and Secularists want to establish Secular Schools ... mostly by taking over existing Christian-run schools.

The state funds the schools - why shouldn't they be secular? Why should a state-funded school adhere to any specific religion? Why can't religious education and preparation for sacraments be done outside of normal school hours? Is that really such a big ask in the 21st century?

Some, like swampgas, even want all schools to be Secular ... with no alternative allowed.

I think there is merit in having an integrated school system where children mix regardless of their parents' religion. I have huge reservations about so-called "faith schools" which seem to be tool for perpetuating segregation, and whose purpose is much more about religion than it is about education.

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2013 9:41pm

J C wrote: »

Could Koth please talk to Bannasidhe ... and when you have agreed on whether I'm a closet Secularist ... or an RC Bishop ... please come back and share your answer with us.

Bannasidhe is of the opinion that you are one of those who like to scream 'persecution!!!!!!' when others state that your privileged position is demonstrably unfair and that while you claim to be a supporter of equality you are in fact heavily invested in maintaining the current unequal status quo.

Delirium · 03-09-2013 9:46pm

J C wrote: »

I agree that an internet forum is not the same as a classroom. However, it does give us a flavour for how the Forum participants feel about certain issues and their levels of tolerance and respect for alternative points of view.

Agreed, and on the whole the forum shows a good level of tolerance and respect for alternative points of view. People are given the respect and patience deserving of their posting manner and content.

Irish schools are largely Christian run ... and Secularists want to establish Secular Schools ... mostly by taking over exisiting Christian-run schools.
Some, like swampgas, even want all schools to be Secular ... with no alternative allowed.

It's a good idea, an inclusive secular school system that treats all religious views equally. I fail to see why that is such a bad idea.

... so visiting the two Irish forums representing Atheism/Secularism and Christianity on the Boards is potentially insightful in relation to what is likely to happen if Atheists/Agnostics/Secularists gain the control over our schools, that they desire ... and determining the truth about where Christianity is at, in Ireland
The A & A Forum contains threads that mostly scoff at religion and its practitioners (as distinct from presenting and discussing whatever positive aspects that Secularism and Atheism itself may have). Myself and other Christians who have visited this forum have been called morons or liars and our beliefs have been ridiculed ... not a very positive image to be projecting, from the 'wannabe' educators of our children, if I may say so.

That's not even close to reality. I haven't seen any posters in the forum offering their services as teachers or suggesting an anti-theist lesson plan as you are suggesting. All of which has nothing to do with how a secular class would be run.

If you have been personally abused on a thread (on any forum), report the post as it's against site-wide rules.

Over on the Christianity Forum people help each other to find Churches and the time of church services as they debate the finer and indeed the more controversial points of Christian Doctrine in a relatively civil manner ... until some anti-theist turns up to tell them that religious people are deluded or morons or mad ... or all three.

I would suggest you take it up with the moderators in the Christianity forum as it would be in breach of the charter.

Can you see why Christians, even those with an historical animosity towards Roman Catholocism, (and all its baggage) find the alternative of schools being run by people with the deeply anti-theist attitudes shown towards religion on the Boards, to be an unpalatable prospect ?

Who is suggesting schools be run by anti-theists? Secular schools have no religious (or lack of) requirement for their teachers, unlike Christian schools which have legal protection for religious/homosexual discrimination.

I say this with a heavy heart, as I know many liberal Secularists who have a 'live and let live' attitude to people of faith and their beliefs ... but they don't seem to turn up very often on the A & A (and I wonder why?).

Not reading enough threads in this forum at a guess. Plenty of them here if you pay attention.

... the following is just a tiny example of what I'm talking about in terms of intolerance towards me and my faith ... not a hint of welcoming diversity or Christians here ... and eyescreamcone is certainly not alone when it comes to such pronouncements

Even Christians have problems with creationism. I see nothing wrong with suggesting that it's a lack of scientific knowledge that is at the root of some people lending their support to creationism.

J C · 03-09-2013 9:48pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Bannasidhe is of the opinion that you are one of those who like to scream 'persecution!!!!!!' when others state that your privileged position is demonstrably unfair and that while you claim to be a supporter of equality you are in fact heavily invested in maintaining the current unequal status quo.

I don't feel in the least 'persecuted' ... but I don't take my religious freedom for granted ... especially when people are openly expressing the desire to disappear 'me and my ilk'!!!!
... and others want to use the power of the state to favour the beliefs of Secular Humanism whilst banning the beliefs and practices of Christianity.

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2013 9:53pm

J C wrote: »

I don't feel in the least 'persecuted' ... but I don't take my religious freedom for granted ... especially when people are openly expressing the desire to 'disappear me and my ilk'!!!!
... and others want to use the power of the state to favour the beliefs of Secular Humanism whilst banning the beliefs and practices of Christianity.

Given that there are Christians who openly advocate that homosexuals should be executed and these people are in positions of considerable power, as a homosexual I find it highly insulting and distasteful that you would dare to try and play the 'the desire to 'disappear me and my ilk' card in a post to me.

If some 'people of your ilk' had their way they would express their desire to disappear me and my ilk in a very literal way.

Delirium · 03-09-2013 9:54pm

J C wrote: »

I don't feel in the least 'persecuted' ... but I don't take my religious freedom for granted ... especially when people are openly expressing the desire to disappear 'me and my ilk'!!!!
... and others want to use the power of the state to favour the beliefs of Secular Humanism whilst banning the beliefs and practices of Christianity.

Yeah, it's outrageous that a poster suggested that cracking open a book might change creationists opinions on evolution.

J C · 03-09-2013 10:00pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Given that there are Christians who openly advocate that homosexuals should be executed and these people are in positions of considerable power, as a homosexual I find it highly insulting and distasteful that you would dare to try and play the 'the desire to 'disappear me and my ilk' card in a post to me.

If some 'people of your ilk' had their way they would express their desire to disappear me and my ilk in a very literal way.

Who are these 'Christians' that you speak of?
Bannasidhe, you are a soverign and much loved child of God and I would be the first to defend you from anybody who threatened you in any way because of your sexual orientation.

Nobody has expressed the desire to 'disappear' you or your beliefs ... but somebody has expressed the desire to 'disappear' me (or at the very least my beliefs).

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2013 10:07pm

J C wrote: »

Who are these 'Christians' that you speak of?
Bannasithe, you are a soverign and much loved child of God and I would be the first to defend you from anybody who threatened you in any way because of your sexual orientation.

Nobody has expressed the desire to 'disappear' you or your beliefs ... but somebody has expressed the desire to 'disappear' me (or at the very least my beliefs).

Look up the Kill The Gays Bill Uganda or what is happening in Russia and then ponder where to stick your platitudes and defend me then. Because what is happening is under the banner of Christianity - Christian, put your own house in order before slinging stones at us.

J C · 03-09-2013 10:20pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Look up the Kill The Gays Bill Uganda or what is happening in Russia and then ponder where to stick your platitudes and defend me then. Because what is happening is under the banner of Christianity - Christian, put your own house in order before slinging stones at us.

I'm not familiar with the detail of what you say. Perhaps you should set up a thread on this topic.
... but the fact that Hitler killed both Born Again Christians and Homosexuals (as well as, of course, Jews and other minorities) means that you and I have common ground and common cause where threats are made to any vulnerable person or group of persons.

... and I have no desire to 'sling stones' at anybody ... I just want to extend Christian love to everybody.

If its unrequited ... I can accept that too.:)

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2013 10:25pm

J C wrote: »

I'm not familiar with the detail of what you say. Perhaps you should set up a thread on this topic.
... but the fact that Hitler killed both Born Again Christians and Homosexuals (as well as, of course, Jews and other minorities) means that you and I have common ground and common cause where threats are made to any vulnerable person or group of persons.

Familiarise yourself then and don't dare claim common ground with me unless you are vocally condemning in public the actions of your fellow Christians.

You can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

http://www.policymic.com/articles/58649/russia-s-anti-gay-law-spelled-out-in-plain-english

J C · 03-09-2013 10:37pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Familiarise yourself then and don't dare claim common ground with me unless you are vocally condemning in public the actions of your fellow Christians.

You can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

http://www.policymic.com/articles/58649/russia-s-anti-gay-law-spelled-out-in-plain-english

Quote Wikipedia:-
"A special motion to introduce the legislation was passed a month after a two-day conference was held in which three American Christians asserted that homosexuality is a direct threat to the cohesion of African families. Several sources have noted endemic homophobia in Uganda has been exacerbated by the bill and the associated discussions about it.[citation needed]

The bill, the government of Uganda, and the evangelicals involved have received significant international media attention as well as criticism and condemnation from many Western governments and those of other countries, some of whom have threatened to cut off financial aid to Uganda."

This legislation seems to be most draconian ... but please don't make accusations that it is Christian-inspired based on an article that says that three (un-named) 'Christians' and (indeterminate) 'evangelicals' are behind it.

... and I do have common ground with you in condemning unreservedly such illiberal Ugandan legislation ... and its potentially horrific follow-on effects on a vulnerable minority.

I'm still trying to work out what the Russians are up to. I'd have thought it was illegal for adults to promote all types of sexual activity to minors TBH.

Secularist Education Advocating Banning Religion?

Comments