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Ongoing religious scandals

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robindch wrote: »
    The political structure is peculiar - the pope appoints the bishops, but he's not responsible for what they do.

    Allowing him to sit in his exalted chair, raise his finger and, I suppose, say "The buck stopped there".
    The handy little get out of jail free card is being chipped away though... The pope might not get prosecuted, but hopefully we will start to see liability moving up the chain.

    MrP


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Top Australian godman says that his employees and his organization aren't as bad as they used to be:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/australian-cardinal-says-abuse-claims-have-fallen-1.1407684


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,624 ✭✭✭SebBerkovich


    robindch wrote: »
    Top Australian godman says that his employees and his organization aren't as bad as they used to be:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/australian-cardinal-says-abuse-claims-have-fallen-1.1407684

    How many organisations in the world would be this happy about saying "Less people are getting abused by our organisation than in the 70's, 80's and 90's"


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    How many organisations in the world would be this happy about saying "Less people are getting abused by our organisation than in the 70's, 80's and 90's"

    Banks????


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,624 ✭✭✭SebBerkovich


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Banks????

    Well if a Banker was to say it, it would also be a lie.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Here's Pell's testimony:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-27/cardinal-george-pell-appears-at-sex-abuse-inquiry/4714964

    Summary: the church has plenty of money. lots of people are not interested in money. church is a victim of a hostile press. could do better.
    ABC wrote:
    He was asked how he is able to stay in a $30 million "palace" in Rome, when Australian victims of abuse are limited to just $75,000 in compensation. Parliamentary secretary Andrea Coote suggested the Church sell off the Italian property so it could afford more generous compensation, but Cardinal Pell says the Church did not need to do that.

    "It is not a palace. It is not my home. I have two nice rooms there which I'm very happy about. Which I use as a base when I'm in Rome. It is a hostel for pilgrims," he said. "It's an investment there. We don't need to sell investments at the moment to pay our damages and whatever damages compensation there are, we'll be fully able to do so."

    In the United States, Church abuse victims can typically receive around $1 million in compensation, but Cardinal Pell says the huge differences between the US and Australia is because America is a litigious society where they pay a much higher rate. When asked if he thought $75,000 was an appropriate sum for people who had been anally and orally raped by priests when they were children, Cardinal Pell says the Church pays what the Government recommends.

    "Many of the victims aren't particularly interested in money. The more important thing is due process, justice, and help with getting on with their lives," he said.

    [...]

    Cardinal Pell told the inquiry the Church has been the victim of years of "intermittent hostility from the press" but he says this has helped uncover some of the Church's failings.


  • Moderators Posts: 51,733 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Cardinal George Pell has confessed to creation of false documents and 'reprehensible' cover-ups of child sex abuse
    CARDINAL George Pell has confessed false documents were created and priests took part in "reprehensible" cover-ups of child sexual abuse.

    The most prominent Catholic in Australia was grilled by a Victorian parliamentary committee for 4 1/2 hours about systemic failings by the church to deal with abuse.

    Cardinal Pell said the fear of scandals drove much of the reaction to rampant abuse in the 1970s and '80s, but that a concern about money was also involved.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Cardinal Pell is also a guest of honour at a dinner hosted by The Catholic Voice. Isn't that just amazing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,856 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Ugh, one of the few papers more vile than the Sindo, the Daily Fail and the Waily Express.


  • Registered Users Posts: 959 ✭✭✭maringo


    Reprehensible doesn't begin to describe that I'd call it criminal. He should crawl under a stone that's of course after he has got his just reward in Court. But pigs might fly..... :mad:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    The Australian Catholic Church - Now raping significantly less children!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ...must resist the temptation to say "fewer"...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robindch wrote: »
    ...must resist the temptation to say "fewer"...
    I bought this, suggest you do the same.

    256134.jpg

    http://www.cafepress.co.uk/mf/75200509/im-silently-correcting-your-grammar_tshirt

    MrP


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    MrPudding wrote: »
    I bought this, suggest you do the same.
    Am trying to kick the habit, goddammit!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    robindch wrote: »
    Am trying to kick the habit, goddammit!

    Would a t-shirt with that photo of JW help?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    Grammer: not even ones.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Would a t-shirt with that photo of JW help?
    JW shouldn't be denied the oxygen of publicity, he should be denied the oxygen of oxygen.(*)






    (*) Paraphrasing the late, great Linda Smith about noted author Geoffry Archur.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    It has to be said, criticism of it in Ireland has been somewhat insipid, give the huge holes in the plot....
    THE United Nations' torture watchdog has criticised the
    McAleese inquiry into the Magdalene Laundries and has called on the Government
    to set out plans for a full-scale independent investigation.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/un-watchdog-attacks-mcaleese-laundries-probe-29312137.html

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/06/01/the-mcaleese-report-incomplete-and-not-independent/?fb_source=pubv1


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,285 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Trouble at mill in happy clappy land.

    From today's IT (but not online on the IT site yet) :

    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/receivers-say-they-were-impeded/
    Bank-appointed receivers over three premises owned by a non-denominational church have been obstructed when attempting to take possession of the properties, the High Court was told yesterday.

    Chartered accountants Paul McCann and Patrick Dillon claim they have been impeded from carrying out their duties in relation to properties of Victory Christian Fellowship, which operates a number of churches throughout the country. The properties are at Kilmacud House, Kilmacud Road, Upper Stillorgan, Co Dublin; Westland Row in Dublin city; and Firhouse Road, Tallaght. Mr McCann and Mr Dillon were appointed receivers by Bank of Scotland. The properties were put up as security for loans of €14 million but repayments went into arrears, the court was told.

    The receivers say they have been been impeded entering the properties. They also claim the property on Westland Row was broken into by parties unknown.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 959 ✭✭✭maringo


    Nodin wrote: »


    The McAleese report was simply a whitewash. What inquiry could have any credibility if it failed to take evidence from all parties before it came to its conclusions. If somebody locked me up and made me work for them I'd say that was imprisonment and forced labour. But maybe that's not a crime in Irish law if you're a religious order....


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Searchers had found the lifeless body of former Miss South Texas, Irene Garza, face down in a canal in her hometown of McAllen. She'd disappeared on the day before Easter after going to Sacred Heart Catholic Church for confession.

    All evidence pointed police to one conclusion: A priest had killed a beautiful 25-year-old schoolteacher and former beauty queen.

    The priest had been arrested for attacking another young woman at a church in a nearby town 3 weeks before this rape and murder.

    Here's the story of the incident that happened in the 60s on CNN.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda-held-over-claim-she-forged-dpp-documentation-1.1404865
    It's all a bit vague, but it seems a Garda doing god's work falsified some documentation from the DPP to take away all hope from a victim that they might secure a conviction against a priest. And so the case was dropped, and filed away in a big box....until recently.
    It will be interesting to see whether this story runs, and whether she was acting alone or under instruction from higher up the chain of command. She may well have been quite junior at the time of the incident (it's not clear when exactly this happened)


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,358 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Ah for f*ck sake :mad:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The ICC rejects the Center for Constitutional Rights' request to investigate Vatican officials concerning the protection of pedophiles:

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/06/18/international-criminal-court-rejects-request-to-investigate-vatican-officials/
    The International Criminal Court has declined a request from victims of clergy sexual abuse to investigate Vatican officials and their responsibility for the abuse of children by Catholic priests around the world.

    In a two-page letter dated May 31, the court told the New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights, which represents the victims, that the offences alleged in the survivor’s petition “do not appear to fall within the jurisdiction of the court.”

    The request from victims of clergy of sexual abuse was filed in September 2011 and targeted Pope Benedict XVI and other top Vatican officials, saying that they “tolerate and enable the systematic widespread concealing of rape and child sex crimes throughout the world.”

    Advocates for abuse victims pledged to continue gathering evidence in anticipation of filing another request with the court based at The Hague. Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, said that the outcome was expected.

    “I never doubted this would be the response (of the ICC), given the total groundlessness of the accusation,” Father Lombardi said.

    Barbara Blaine, president of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, which sought the investigation, said in a statement: “We are confident that the ICC will see sufficient evidence that high ranking Catholic officials are still knowingly enabling predators to harm and endanger children across the world, while concealing these heinous crimes even more effectively.”

    She added that the organisation will continue to work to hold the church responsible for how it handled reports of abuse.

    Abuse victims asked the court to consider filing charges of “crimes against humanity” against Pope Benedict XVI, both as Pope and as the previous prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Others named in the filing were Cardinal Anglo Sodano, dean of the College of Cardinals and former Vatican secretary of state; Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, secretary of state and former secretary of the doctrinal congregation; and Cardinal William J Levada, who was prefect of the congregation at the time.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    An audit of sexual abuse amongst Capuchin monks in one area shows that abuse was known about, and hushed up, as far back as Capuchin records go, to 1932.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/19/us/audit-finds-sex-abuse-was-topic-decades-ago.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=1&

    Interestingly, the internal Capuchin records show that allegations were recorded against 46 out of 1100 monks, a rate of 4.2%.
    NY Times wrote:
    A regional province of the Capuchin religious order that had fought allegations of sexual abuse for decades decided last year to open its files dating to the 19th century to three independent auditors, in what the order claimed to be a first in the long-running Roman Catholic Church abuse scandal in the United States. The auditors’ report, released on Tuesday, found that sexual abuse by friars in the St. Joseph Province of the Capuchin Order was discussed at meetings as far back as 1932, the first year for which minutes of meetings were available.

    After more than a dozen students at the province’s St. Lawrence Seminary in Wisconsin accused nine friars of abuse in 1992, it cost the province’s insurer nearly a million dollars — but 89 percent of that went to lawyers to defend the Capuchins and only 11 percent to victims for settlements and therapy, the report said. “One of the very sobering findings,” the Rev. John Celichowski, the Capuchins’ provincial minister, said Tuesday in a conference call with reporters, “is through much of our history as a province, we have failed victims and survivors.”

    The audit is unusual because the Capuchin province commissioned it voluntarily, claimed to allow the investigators unfettered access to original files and documents, and included on the panel the Rev. Thomas Doyle, a prominent whistle-blower who has often testified against the church in court cases. Most Catholic dioceses undergo annual audits on abuse, but those are based on self-reporting by the dioceses, and the auditors are usually not given access to internal personnel files.

    The Capuchin Province of St. Joseph, which is based in Detroit, runs social service programs, schools and parishes in Michigan, Arizona, California, Illinois, Indiana, Montana, Wisconsin, Nicaragua and Panama. The province, which has 169 members, is a regional division of one of several Catholic religious orders that profess to follow the example of St. Francis of Assisi by caring for poor and marginalized people and the environment.

    In addition to Father Doyle, the panel that investigated the Capuchins included a lawyer and a psychologist with experience handling sexual abuse cases. They concluded that the underlying problems were poor record-keeping and “clericalism,” which they defined as the attitude that priests and friars are “inherently superior to laypeople and entitled to undue special deference.” The auditors said that the files often contained “coded language” and euphemisms to refer to sexual abusers. Friars were said to suffer from “immorality” or “evil actions and speech,” and some documents record friars sent for treatment for alcoholism when sexual abuse was clearly the issue.

    Peter J. Isely, who was abused by a Capuchin friar at St. Lawrence Seminary in 1970s, praised the province for commissioning the report, but said he suspected that the order had either destroyed documents or withheld them from the auditors. Mr. Isely, the Midwest director of the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, said that he had provided court documents to the auditors that were not in the province’s files.

    Asked about this discrepancy, Father Celichowski acknowledged that “file management was historically a significant problem.” After reviewing information on 1,101 friars, the auditors found 46 who allegedly sexually abused minors — 23 of those with confirmed, substantiated reports of abuse. The Capuchins failed to follow the church’s own canon law and report the abuse to civil authorities, even though they were mandated to, the audit concluded.

    “I hope that this report and this process will lead other entities in the church — dioceses and religious orders — to have the courage and the Christian decency to do the same thing,” Father Doyle said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,624 ✭✭✭SebBerkovich


    Case One:
    A priest sexually assaults a child.
    The RCC hide him away and hope no one finds out. If someone does find out, hinder the investigation at all costs. Make excuses prolonging the case and hope everyone dies before they have to pay anything to the victims....

    Case Two:
    A priest steals money from the RCC?
    Unleash all the power of the Pope to arrest and punish him.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23094320


    Man it's just so lucky people have such an steadfast Moral institution to guide them in these dark days of pagans and atheists.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭Justin1982


    Just wondering, is there any statistics as to the percentage of priests/monks in Ireland that were abusing children or adults? I know one of the posters quoted a rate of 4.2% for a certain order but just wondering what the overall number is or how high the rate got up to in certain orders or dioceses?

    And is the percentage of abusive priests higher or lower than the percentage of men outside religious orders abusing children in the male population?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Justin1982 wrote: »
    Just wondering, is there any statistics as to the percentage of priests/monks in Ireland that were abusing children or adults? I know one of the posters quoted a rate of 4.2% for a certain order but just wondering what the overall number is or how high the rate got up to in certain orders or dioceses?

    And is the percentage of abusive priests higher or lower than the percentage of men outside religious orders abusing children in the male population?

    Ultimately that isn't even that relevant.
    It could be 1% or 100%. Although abusing children is obviously terrible, it's as a result of mentally disabled people. They have to be held accountable but you'll always get a certain element of mentally unstable people in society.

    The actual problem was the deliberate covering up of child rapists, not because the conspirators were also paedophiles and endorsed the notion, but because they placed the public image and standing of the church above the welfare of the people supposedly under their care.

    At a high level the church thought it was better that these people be left alone to continue abusing children so the church could save face rather than act like the moral guardians they purported to be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    I don't follow. Are you saying that priests who committed those crimes were mentally disabled, because that was never claimed at any trial.

    They knew damn well what they were doing.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    Banbh wrote: »
    I don't follow. Are you saying that priests who committed those crimes were mentally disabled, because that was never claimed at any trial.

    They knew damn well what they were doing.
    Mentally ill, perhaps, but, that's still no excuse.

    And, I do think it's relevant what percentage of priests versus regular population exhibit pedophilia. For one thing, if the percentage within the priesthood is larger, you can argue a number of points. Were pedophiles preferentially entering the seminary in order to be able to access children? Are the actual rates actually the same, but a higher number of priests express the pedophilia -because- they had such access? Lots of interesting questions. One of the important things, I think, that needs to be remembered is that the statistics only tell us about pedophiles who act on their impulses. It doesn't tell us anything about the numbers who have the urges but control/suppress/never get a chance to act on them.


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