Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

Tim Robbins · 20-03-2013 9:09pm

Obliq wrote: »

I am not moaning, I am confused and showing you some of the issues about my difficulty in figuring out what my property is worth.
And as for the bit in bold, do you condescend here often? I won't bore you with the details of dealing with the SEAI, but I know how to plan thank you.

Sorry mate your post came across as whinging. If you are genuinely stressed about this - I'm sorry. It can be hard to tell everything on the interweb.

I just think this country is full of whingers.

I lost 250K in the property crash and I think the property tax is one of the best things to happen this country. I know people who dodge tax left right and center and they won't dodge this one. There are way too many useless landlords who look at property as nothing more to screw people over. At least now paying some difficult to avoid tax might remind them of social responsibility (note I am landlord myself). There are other good reasons why this tax is superb.

There will be genuine hardship cases but there are enough safeguards to make sure that is minimal - unlike any other tax.

rameire · 20-03-2013 11:48pm

Ghost estate exemption list for the Property tax

http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,32636,en.pdf

allthedoyles · 20-03-2013 11:58pm

This meeting was on last night -- Did'nt go to it .

Is there any point is continuing protesting , as this tax is going to be collected no matter what .

When Revenue say there will be a 97% compliance , I believe them .

sparkling sea · 21-03-2013 12:22am

Tim Robbins wrote: »

So you are p*ssed off because you parents didn't screw the system and your neighbours did?

Sorry but's that a good argument. You parents got a local authority house - I never got that. Some local authority houses were bought very cheaply and were worth many multiples of what the people who bought paid for them.

They can always defer payment and let your parents pass the debt over to revenue.

And again some people don't pay anything near a mortgage for the homes they live in all their lives, they don't have to pay for major works and incur the costs that many people who have mortgages do. Houses with mortgages are owned by banks thats the reality for thousands of people now Blaa blaa as I've already said.

Its was yet another example off the unfairness of the system - yes I agree its a good arguement and yes some people did buy houses very cheaply - and these people aren't my parents, how does this relate to my point?

I never got a local authority house either nor did I get a first time buyers grant, nor did I buy a newly built home, I have over the years moved several times and always paid stamp duty - and my parents aren't looking to defer etc,

I am not "p*ssed off" that my parents didn't screw the system - I am annoyed that there doesn't appear to be any equity in the system; the exemptions and application of the property tax is yet another example of this and I cited my parents as yet another example - your ESP is out of kilter here.

The majority of people in the 1950's lived in local authority housing, you were either very unfortunate, fairly wealthy, not in need of housing or some other reason that wasn't the norm at that time.

To be honest I don't understand the point your trying to make?

sarkozy · 21-03-2013 1:13am

sparkling sea wrote: »

Here is yet another reason I don't think the Property Tax, which may be needed, is being applied fairly - there is no equity applied.

My parents bought their Local Authority home over 30 years ago, they have paid for every alteration need, from insultation to double glazing, they have lived in the same house for over 50 years.

Their neighbours who did not choose to buy but instead opted to rent, have had their homes completely revamped. The house were completely rewired, replastered, new bathroom suites, new kitchen units (of their choosing), new floors, new windows, new internal and exteral doors, insulation, etc.

Both my parents worked in low paid jobs, next door the male neighbour was my fathers supervisor. Neither my parents or the next door neighbours have a private pension; both receive a state con pension.

My parents will now have to pay the property tax, the neighbours will not. My parents could badly do with new sanitary ware and rewiring - they can't afford it and although the wiring is in a shocking state and they applied for the older persons aid grant - they didn't get it.

My siblings and I may have to pay inhertance tax, the neighbours very adult son has moved back home, he is now unemployed and his name has been added to the rent book - the house will be his in reality - he of course will not pay any tax on this - although he will benefit as by way of defacto the house is his.

There are many people who, in all but name, own local authority homes. They have all the benefits of a secure home, which they can in reality pass on to their children; they don't have any of the responsibilities. This system is wrong

I'm in favour of a property tax if correctly designed and properly linked to local services delivered by a local government and accountable to elected local representatives. This tax is a fudge.

I sympathise with your parents' case, but like it or not, they now have an asset which they acquired very cheaply. I don't believe they should move out of their home, and your family home, for reasons of paying tax. But you contradicted yourself when you expressed disgruntlement at having to pay inheritance tax, as if it's a burden. Your parents' house is an asset, part of which you will inherit, and with which you will better your life. These taxes are designed to provide a stable revenue base based on the principle of social fairness - to circulate the value of static assets circulating in society that tend to concentrate in the hands of the already-well-off.

As I said, it's a poorly designed property tax - and a craven political fudge - ut you, and other like you, need to get a grip.

sparkling sea · 22-03-2013 12:41am

sarkozy wrote: »

I'm in favour of a property tax if correctly designed and properly linked to local services delivered by a local government and accountable to elected local representatives. This tax is a fudge.

I sympathise with your parents' case, but like it or not, they now have an asset which they acquired very cheaply. I don't believe they should move out of their home, and your family home, for reasons of paying tax. But you contradicted yourself when you expressed disgruntlement at having to pay inheritance tax, as if it's a burden. Your parents' house is an asset, part of which you will inherit, and with which you will better your life. These taxes are designed to provide a stable revenue base based on the principle of social fairness - to circulate the value of static assets circulating in society that tend to concentrate in the hands of the already-well-off.

As I said, it's a poorly designed property tax - and a craven political fudge - ut you, and other like you, need to get a grip.

Its nice that you don't believe they should move out of their home, how you got to even thinking about this is a mystery. The only thing that disgruntles me is that people who refuse to take on the responsibility of a property (when they can afford to do so) (a) deny those who can't afford a property, local authority housing (b) get the benefit ( in reality) of passing on a property they never took responsibility for and (c) don't pay their fair share, thereby placing even more of a burden on those in society who are willing to pay their fair share and who are in reality, are actually paying more than their fair share.
The first point I made was this tax maybe needed, although there is so much waste and costly bureaucracy in the system that I not 100% sure, if a proper PEST or similiar analysis was carried out, it would be needed.

You've missed or/and excused the point. I am not disgruntled by paying tax of any kind. I won't better my life from the asset of my parents house either, again it was an example of the unfairness within the system

Forget about my parents; they are more than happy to pay the property tax, their very patriotic and believe that everyone (according to their capability) should relieve the burden of debt. Again I was just citing them as yet another example of yet another case of the inquity within the property tax application.

This country will never intrinsically or cultural grow and change when attitudes that ignore basic maxims of equity and inequality exist - this tax is not being applied fairly. I feel if it must be applied proportional and with an acknowledgement of the realistic evaluation of the monetary situation of all people in Ireland - from ALL of those who have the ability and not those who are constantly selected to have the ability.

If we lived in a society that 'actually' holds people responsible and to account that would be different, we don't.

Conquistador · 25-04-2013 11:38am

Right 40 million x pats supposedly Irish worldwide, and are holders of Irish passports.
Every paddy’s day they claim there undying love for the home country now to be honest it’s not rocket science if you need a passport and can afford a holiday every year or really want that identity of being Irish pay for it, 50 euros a year for that privilege multiply by 40 million equals to 2000000000 Two Billion annually right not everyone is going to want an Irish passport now suppose that is reduced to 10 million Irish that will seek the passport 5000000000 Five hundred million. So if you really want to be Irish and want to help the home country it would cost 50.00 a year. I’m a middle age man low earner live in cork but as I said if I want to go on holiday I would pay 50.00 and then cut house hold charge. I don’t have figures of the estimated revenue of the house hold charge. But would think that passports are an easier way to go the database is there and can be managed easily. I’m against any type of tax by the way, but in this emergency suppose we all have to chip in.

cageyeuclid · 28-04-2013 6:52pm

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey, he is obligated to do so"
Thomas Jefferson
If Jeffeson didnt say this about the LPT he should have.
660,000 havent paid the household charge, but this government (elected by default) is plowing ahead.
My house costs; it does not earn .... no earnings = no tax due.
And, there are 660,000 Irish householders who agree.

rameire · 28-04-2013 7:44pm

cageyeuclid wrote: »

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey, he is obligated to do so"
Thomas Jefferson
If Jeffeson didnt say this about the LPT he should have.
660,000 havent paid the household charge, but this government (elected by default) is plowing ahead.
My house costs; it does not earn .... no earnings = no tax due.
And, there are 660,000 Irish householders who agree.

New figures show almost 1.2 million – or 73 per cent – out of an estimated 1.6 million liable households have paid

MadsL · 29-04-2013 4:32am

Conquistador wrote: »

Right 40 million x pats supposedly Irish worldwide, and are holders of Irish passports.
Every paddy’s day they claim there undying love for the home country now to be honest it’s not rocket science if you need a passport and can afford a holiday every year or really want that identity of being Irish pay for it, 50 euros a year for that privilege multiply by 40 million equals to 2000000000 Two Billion annually right not everyone is going to want an Irish passport now suppose that is reduced to 10 million Irish that will seek the passport 5000000000 Five hundred million. So if you really want to be Irish and want to help the home country it would cost 50.00 a year. I’m a middle age man low earner live in cork but as I said if I want to go on holiday I would pay 50.00 and then cut house hold charge. I don’t have figures of the estimated revenue of the house hold charge. But would think that passports are an easier way to go the database is there and can be managed easily. I’m against any type of tax by the way, but in this emergency suppose we all have to chip in.

Would you give them the vote?

bgrizzley · 29-04-2013 2:27pm

rameire wrote: »

New figures show almost 1.2 million – or 73 per cent – out of an estimated 1.6 million liable households have paid

any chance we could see those figures? who estimated that 1.6 million figure?

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/how-many-properties-will-be-liable-for-the-household-charge.html

even the minister for finance gives a figure of 1.9 million...

http://www.thejournal.ie/noonan-if-people-can-afford-high-end-tv-packages-they-can-afford-the-household-charge-729930-Dec2012/

Banjo String · 29-04-2013 3:09pm

bgrizzley wrote: »

any chance we could see those figures? who estimated that 1.6 million figure?

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/how-many-properties-will-be-liable-for-the-household-charge.html

even the minister for finance gives a figure of 1.9 million...

http://www.thejournal.ie/noonan-if-people-can-afford-high-end-tv-packages-they-can-afford-the-household-charge-729930-Dec2012/

The way I look at it....

even at 1.6 million, and the govt telling us (who don't lie of course) that 1.2 million have paid...... That leaves a balance of 400,000 that did not comply.

The govt ploughed on regardless.

less than 300,000 PS and CS workers rejected the CPA2.

The Govt stops and listens.

Am Chile · 02-05-2013 2:17am

From observing facebook and the attackthetax facebook page it seems a lot of people are following their advice and asking about getting involved with their campaign- some of their advice is to put a sticker on the property tax form and send it back to revenue-Id imagine there will be a lot of the forms returned with their sticker on it-anyone whos ever read my posts on other threads knows Im against the property tax-I would think though the freeman method of fighting the property tax will do more harm then good.

02-05-2013 2:26am

Is there anything to stop the government publishing a list of those who have and haven't complied? Since they're claiming the charge will stand against the property until sale there should surely be a way for buyers to know before buying.

Am Chile · 02-05-2013 3:34am

There are some videos on youtube of attackthetax meetings-I watched a few minutes of this video-notice the way they also mention fighting parking fines in the same video-very dodgy freeman advice being given out to naive people.

rameire · 02-05-2013 8:06am

The problem with the idiots (sorry freemen) sending the form back with the sticker. It means that the revenue are going to take the amount they estimated which means the people could be charged alot more than the would have paid if they made a return. And that is excluding fees and charges.

02-05-2013 9:13am

attackthetax, like CAHWT have NO mandate from the people. As another poster has said, sending back the form will only give Revenue the right to take the higher amount from their wages or welfare payments. This tax is here to stay.

Pete_Cavan · 02-05-2013 10:16am

Am Chile wrote: »

"What qualifies us primarily is the fact that we can read, we can write and we are conscious.

...

We are here to teach you and show you the law".

Either they have really allowed the bar to drop as regards qualifications to interpret and teach the law or these guys are a bunch of clowns.

Ogham · 02-05-2013 2:32pm

bgrizzley wrote: »

any chance we could see those figures? who estimated that 1.6 million figure?

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/how-many-properties-will-be-liable-for-the-household-charge.html

even the minister for finance gives a figure of 1.9 million...

http://www.thejournal.ie/noonan-if-people-can-afford-high-end-tv-packages-they-can-afford-the-household-charge-729930-Dec2012/

That moneyguideireland link says 1.8 million not 1.6

oscarBravo · 02-05-2013 8:21pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

"...

We are here to teach you and show you the law".

Looks to me like some people are setting themselves to be sued for negligent misstatement.

Banjo String · 03-05-2013 9:04am

oscarBravo wrote: »

Looks to me like some people are setting themselves to be sued for negligent misstatement.

Which is exactly why it's better to do the opposite of what the revenue ads tell us not to do.

Ignore the letter.

Everyone ignores it, mass non compliance means mass time consuming effort by revenue to get their wheels in motion to forcibly take it.

If Labour stand idly by, while revenue forcibly take money from a working man's wages, they're finished as a working man's party.

I don't doubt they'll forcibly take it from us btw. In fact they've my home on a higher band in the letter sent to me than the websites estimate.

I'm happy enough with my stance though. I'll not pay up meekly, if enough of us homeowners stand together it can be unworkable, or at least be extremely difficult to implement fully by this govts term in office.

bgrizzley · 03-05-2013 9:13am

Ogham wrote: »

That moneyguideireland link says 1.8 million not 1.6

i know, thats why i quoted it (plus a link that shows even Michael noonan doesnt believe there's only 1.6 million;))

Zubeneschamali · 03-05-2013 9:31am

SamHall wrote: »

I don't doubt they'll forcibly take it from us btw.

Yes, with interest and penalties.

if enough of us homeowners stand together it can be unworkable, or at least be extremely difficult to implement fully by this govts term in office.

That's not how Revenue operate. You owe them this money. They will pursue you till you die, and then take it out of your estate before your kids get a cent.

Your only hope is that the next Government give the Troika the finger and announce a tax amnesty. I would say "Good luck with that" except that I sincerely hope no-one that irresponsible is ever elected again.

03-05-2013 9:36am

SamHall wrote: »

Which is exactly why it's better to do the opposite of what the revenue ads tell us not to do.
Ignore the letter.
Everyone ignores it, mass non compliance means mass time consuming effort by revenue to get their wheels in motion to forcibly take it.
They have you in the system already.

If Labour stand idly by, while revenue forcibly take money from a working man's wages, they're finished as a working man's party.

If people of Ireland stand idly by and let the country sink, then shame on them.

I don't doubt they'll forcibly take it from us btw. In fact they've my home on a higher band in the letter sent to me than the websites estimate.

If you're willing to pay more than you should, great. It means the bills for the rest of will be smaller in the future.

I'm happy enough with my stance though. I'll not pay up meekly, if enough of us homeowners stand together it can be unworkable, or at least be extremely difficult to implement fully by this govts term in office.

Over 250,000 have paid up already, so I don't see mass resistance.

bgrizzley · 03-05-2013 9:42am

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, with interest and penalties.

That's not how Revenue operate. You owe them this money. They will pursue you till you die, and then take it out of your estate before your kids get a cent.

Your only hope is that the next Government give the Troika the finger and announce a tax amnesty. I would say "Good luck with that" except that I sincerely hope no-one that irresponsible is ever elected again.

if FF are to be believed the troika are not wedded to a property tax, so lets hope the next government wont be that irresponsible to abolish it and not have a replacement tax.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/troika-would-accept-property-tax-alternative-says-ff-1.554441

Zubeneschamali · 03-05-2013 9:50am

bgrizzley wrote: »

if FF are to be believed the troika are not wedded to a property tax, so lets hope the next governement wont be that irresponsible to abolish it and not have a replacement tax.

My point is that even if the next Government abolishes the tax, they will never in a million years offer an amnesty for this years bill.

Resistance is futile.

Banjo String · 03-05-2013 9:56am

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, with interest and penalties

Did you miss where I said;

.

I'm happy enough with my stance though. I'll not pay up meekly

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That's not how Revenue operate. You owe them this money. They will pursue you till you die, and then take it out of your estate before your kids get a cent.

That's assuming FG and labour see out their term in office.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Your only hope is that the next Government give the Troika the finger and announce a tax amnesty. I would say "Good luck with that" except that I sincerely hope no-one that irresponsible is ever elected again.

FF will offer something to replace it come a general election.

Don't kid yourself otherwise.

Zubeneschamali · 03-05-2013 9:57am

SamHall wrote: »

FF will offer something to replace it come a general election.

No amnesty, though, not a chance in Hell.

Banjo String · 03-05-2013 9:59am

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

My point is that even if the next Government abolishes the tax, they will never in a million years offer an amnesty for this years bill.

Resistance is futile.

FF are the most popular party in the state once again.

As much as I deplore them, they're telling us that they're opposed to the tax.

In saying that though, Enda told us that too.

In short, Enda is as big a two faced lying conman than any of the hoods in FF.

Banjo String · 03-05-2013 10:07am

Deleted User wrote: »

Over 250,000 have paid up already, so I don't see mass resistance.

When is the first deadline (by post)?

Out of an estimated 1.9 million homes, according to whom you believe, that's hardly a roaring success by any measure.

Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

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