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M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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    #812
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    I don't think looking nice qualifies as an IROPI criterion. ;)


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    #813
    yer man!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭yer man!


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I don't think looking nice qualifies as an IROPI criterion. ;)

    I know that but the preservation of the limestone pavement was not really the reason anybody objected to it, some of these people object to anything that gets build around them, just for the sake of it.


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    #814
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    yer man! wrote: »
    I know that but the preservation of the limestone pavement was not really the reason anybody objected to it, some of these people object to anything that gets build around them, just for the sake of it.



    And I suppose the ECJ in this case issued its ruling "just for the sake of it"?


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    #815
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    And I suppose the ECJ in this case issued its ruling "just for the sake of it"?

    In case you haven't noticed, limestone in Galway is not exactly scarce, as evidenced by the large numbers of stone walls made of limestone.


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    #816
    yer man!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭yer man!


    If someone really doesn't want something built in Galway, they can make that happen, or at the very least seriously delay it. Dig anywhere and you'll find an important bone or a nice rock or god forbid a rare snail. It's like twisting the truth in a legal battle.


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    #817
    dloob
    Registered Users Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭dloob


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    Simple answer, yes.

    The habitat in question was the Pollardstown Fen, which was on the route of the bypass of Kildare (opened in 2003). Construction work got held up for ages - 18 months or more. From memory, the changes that were forced on the NRA resulted in a dewatering of the fen, which wasn't great for the rare semi-aquatic snails that lived there. I think the snails are still there though.

    Interesting engineering type paper on the mitigation measures here;

    http://www.engineersireland.ie/EngineersIreland/media/SiteMedia/groups/societies/geotechnical/Kildare-Town-Bypass-Design-and-Construction.pdf?ext=.pdf

    They had to put in quite a sophisticated system to ensure the road did not impact the water table level much.
    Some of the road is built below the water table levels and with a underdrainage system that ensures the water flows under the road from one side to the other.
    Surface water has to be piped away from the section too.

    6 Million and years of delays I believe it was to ensure the snails had enough water.

    In 2003 much of the snail population was drowned in flooding.
    The ironing was delicious
    http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/paperstoday/index.php?action=view&id=2440


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    #818
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    Not really, no. Sweetman seemed convinced - and actually still seems convinced that this actually has going on his hilariously misinformed media interviews today - that this was going to stop the bypass ever being built. Which it won't.

    I read report where he said it looks like the law may be bypassed by the powers that be -- so from that interview he does not seem as convinced or misinformed as you say.


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    #819
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    In case you haven't noticed, limestone in Galway is not exactly scarce, as evidenced by the large numbers of stone walls made of limestone.

    yer man! wrote: »
    If someone really doesn't want something built in Galway, they can make that happen, or at the very least seriously delay it. Dig anywhere and you'll find an important bone or a nice rock or god forbid a rare snail. It's like twisting the truth in a legal battle.



    The only twisting I see here is people trying to wriggle a bone or two of comfort out of the hard rock of reality.

    The ECJ issued a ruling on an important point of EU law. That's what those "extremely intrusive" Yooropeens were doing, not delving into the details of the case itself or poring over photos of stone walls.

    The ruling affects over 70 priority habitat areas throughout the EU, so it's pointless moaning and groaning at this stage about local specifics. The verdict's far-reaching impact has to do with the overarching principles, and now the Irish Supreme Court has to deal with the specifics of the GCOB:

    Welcoming the ruling as a “landmark judgment”, An Taisce’s natural environment officer Andrew Jackson said its “beneficial conservation impacts” would apply to a total of 72 EU priority habitats, of which 16 are located in Ireland.

    Friends of the Irish Environment said: “This ensures that problems we have had with cases like raised bogs – the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ – must no longer be permitted. Even the partial destruction of protected areas may not be permitted.”


    Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/european-court-ruling-on-galway-bypass-welcomed-by-an-taisce-1.1357740


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    #820
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,116 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    I read report where he said it looks like the law may be bypassed by the powers that be -- so from that interview he does not seem as convinced or misinformed as you say.

    Using iropi is not "bypassing" the law. Goes with his usual misinformation though


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    #821
    test1922
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭test1922


    What a few king mess. It was obvious back in 07 that this was going all the way to Europe with questionable chances of success and no one thought of working on plan B until now?


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    #822
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Peter Sweetman (who I believe works as a professional consultant in Planning, Environment or some such) claims it was obvious to him eleven years ago.

    Assuming 2007 has any particular significance in the double-decade GCOB saga, that was also the year in which major bypass protagonist Galway City Council was, for a few months anyway, still claiming everything was fine -- just FINE, thank you -- with our drinking water.

    The answer (my friend) is probably that for most of 2007 the College Road Cryptocracy was too busy dealing with, ahem, unexpected poisoning of the water to concentrate much on what was blowing in the wind...


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    #823
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    Using iropi is not "bypassing" the law. Goes with his usual misinformation though

    Yes, sure, maybe maybe not. It does not matter in regards to what I was saying.

    My point was what he said shows he is not so sure that this is the end for the bypass -- which makes what you said wrong.


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    #824
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,116 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    Yes, sure, maybe maybe not. It does not matter in regards to what I was saying.

    My point was what he said shows he is not so sure that this is the end for the bypass -- which makes what you said wrong.
    Rather contradictory to his 'dead' claims, that


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    #825
    test1922
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭test1922


    My point is that they now have to start working on plan b to get a new route for the western section they should have been working on this in parallel as the Ecj verdict was always going to be 50:50 at best so more time has been lost.

    Having read your post below its quite evident that you enjoy stirring it up and engaging in trumpet blowing despite the fact you probably haven't a notion what you are talking about. I say it's time to be On yer bike...

    I suppose youd suggest building gluas as well which probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of since taking on the liabilities of the Irish banks


    Who cares about some stupid minor enviro issue anyway we've got a city blocked up with traffic we need more roads not bicycles! What harm is a little bit of damage going to do in the grand scheme of things.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Peter Sweetman (who I believe works as a professional consultant in Planning, Environment or some such) claims it was obvious to him eleven years ago.

    Assuming 2007 has any particular significance in the double-decade GCOB saga, that was also the year in which major bypass protagonist Galway City Council was, for a few months anyway, still claiming everything was fine -- just FINE, thank you -- with our drinking water.

    The answer (my friend) is probably that for most of 2007 the College Road Cryptocracy was too busy dealing with, ahem, unexpected poisoning of the water to concentrate much on what was blowing in the wind...


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    #826
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Maybe if more people doing short to mid distance trips were in their bikes, two feet and buses there'd be far less need for the proposed bypass?

    As it's wider than a roads issue, I've started a thread over on commuting and transport:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056925104


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    #827
    yer man!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭yer man!


    I think people kinda forget the fact that there are quite a lot of through car/bus/truck journeys which have no intention of going into Galway city but must do so in order to cross the Corrib. By implementing a bypass you decongest the city of these journeys and improve the journeys which need to go to the city and also allow public transport to improve in the city Itself. This has been the long term plan of the city council for years, environmentalists keep saying to improve public transport with more bus lanes and bike lanes and things will improve, well guess what? there's no bloody room. Only by removing the cars can you implement a serious network of bus lanes and bike lanes and slowly win people over to abandon the car in favour of these. The through journeys will still remain however, it wouldn't be efficient for most of these people to use public transport as they aren't all going to the same place and west Galway is very dispersed area.


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    #828
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    test1922 wrote: »
    My point is that they now have to start working on plan b to get a new route for the western section they should have been working on this in parallel as the Ecj verdict was always going to be 50:50 at best so more time has been lost.

    That section has been redesigned to run east of the dry bog cotton infested lake nearer Tonabrocky, no public consultation yet though ....until the Supreme Court case is over.

    I think Sweetman won't be in the Supreme court _next_ week somehow which is when the Macroom Bypass case he made a complete mess :D:D of is back in looking to appeal as far as I know.

    Unusually, nowadays, the full EIS for the Bypass project was never available online.


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    #829
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    yer man! wrote: »
    I think people kinda forget the fact that there are quite a lot of through car/bus/truck journeys which have no intention of going into Galway city but must do so in order to cross the Corrib. By implementing a bypass you decongest the city of these journeys and improve the journeys which need to go to the city and also allow public transport to improve in the city Itself. This has been the long term plan of the city council for years, environmentalists keep saying to improve public transport with more bus lanes and bike lanes and things will improve, well guess what? there's no bloody room. Only by removing the cars can you implement a serious network of bus lanes and bike lanes and slowly win people over to abandon the car in favour of these.

    The through journeys will still remain however, it wouldn't be efficient for most of these people to use public transport as they aren't all going to the same place and west Galway is very dispersed area.



    As is pretty standard on Boards, the arguments are going around in circles.

    West Galway is "very dispersed" in development terms at least partly due to the 'planning' policies of one of the main GCOB proponents, Galway County Council. When they have a shiny new road at their disposal, do you think they are suddenly going to change their spots and stop car-dependent development in that region? Or do you think there might be just a slight chance that a bypass will actually facilitate such development?

    As for the city itself, do you really expect us to believe that Galway City Council, which has systematically fostered car dependence for decades and has overseen an inexorable decrease in the proportion of people travelling by bus, bike or on foot, just needs the GCOB to unleash their long-supressed desire to create a sustainable transport nirvana?
    The number of primary school pupils who walk to school in Galway has continued to decline as increasing numbers of parents opt to drive their children to the school gates.

    Analysis of the Census 2011 figures released this week reveal that the car is by far the most popular means of travelling to primary school in Galway City and County for children aged between five and 12 years.

    The Census shows that more than seven out of ten children (72.4%) in Galway travel to school in a car, which is way above the national average (61%); and much greater than five years ago when just 65% of Galway national school children were driven by car to school.

    The underlying notion, imo, is that pedestrians, cyclists and bus users can be accommodated once the people that matter (ie motorists) have been catered for first by the provision of a bypass.

    Unfortunately, it's a fallacy to suggest that constructing more roads sustainably reduces traffic in the long run, and that freed-up road space will be not be taken up by more cars and/or more driving.

    http://www.cts.cv.imperial.ac.uk/documents/publications/iccts00151.pdf

    http://www.cts.cv.ic.ac.uk/documents/publications/iccts00029.pdf

    http://www.jtc.sala.ubc.ca/reports/analysis-ghg-roads.pdf

    http://bca.transportationeconomics.org/benefits/induced-travel

    http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

    Unfortunately again, advancing such evidence-based arguments gets us nowhere on Boards usually.


    .


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    #830
    yer man!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭yer man!


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    As is pretty standard on Boards, the arguments are going around in circles.

    West Galway is "very dispersed" in development terms at least partly due to the 'planning' policies of one of the main GCOB proponents, Galway County Council. When they have a shiny new road at their disposal, do you think they are suddenly going to change their spots and stop car-dependent development in that region? Or do you think there might be just a slight chance that a bypass will actually facilitate such development?

    As for the city itself, do you really expect us to believe that Galway City Council, which has systematically fostered car dependence for decades and has overseen an inexorable decrease in the proportion of people travelling by bus, bike or on foot, just needs the GCOB to unleash their long-supressed desire to create a sustainable transport nirvana?
    The number of primary school pupils who walk to school in Galway has continued to decline as increasing numbers of parents opt to drive their children to the school gates.

    Analysis of the Census 2011 figures released this week reveal that the car is by far the most popular means of travelling to primary school in Galway City and County for children aged between five and 12 years.

    The Census shows that more than seven out of ten children (72.4%) in Galway travel to school in a car, which is way above the national average (61%); and much greater than five years ago when just 65% of Galway national school children were driven by car to school.

    The underlying notion, imo, is that pedestrians, cyclists and bus users can be accommodated once the people that matter (ie motorists) have been catered for first by the provision of a bypass.

    Unfortunately, it's a fallacy to suggest that constructing more roads sustainably reduces traffic in the long run, and that freed-up road space will be not be taken up by more cars and/or more driving.

    http://www.cts.cv.imperial.ac.uk/documents/publications/iccts00151.pdf

    http://www.cts.cv.ic.ac.uk/documents/publications/iccts00029.pdf

    http://www.jtc.sala.ubc.ca/reports/analysis-ghg-roads.pdf

    http://bca.transportationeconomics.org/benefits/induced-travel

    http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

    Unfortunately again, advancing such evidence-based arguments gets us nowhere on Boards usually.


    .

    So you're anti-bypass then?


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    #831
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    On topic, constructive posts please.

    Thread closed for the moment seeing as several of you don't seem to understand this concept.

    Quite a few posts moved here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056926483

    Moderator


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    #832
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    yer man! wrote: »
    So you're anti-bypass then?




    I've made my position clear in numerous posts here and in other threads/forums. No point in rehashing any of it.

    On the topic of the GCOB, we now move on to the next stage, which is the Irish Supreme Court's consideration of the case now that the questions on EU law have been decided by the ECJ.

    I'm not familiar with IROPI procedures. I'm wondering whether the Supreme Court will deal with IROPI, or does the process kick in if/when they rule against the GCOB.


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    #833
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with IROPI procedures. I'm wondering whether the Supreme Court will deal with IROPI, or does the process kick in if/when they rule against the GCOB.

    If you read the local papers, you'd be aware that there's another projecting going through it at the moment.


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    #834
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Link?


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    #835
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Link?

    Connacht tribune, off you go.


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    #836
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Unusually, nowadays, the full EIS for the Bypass project was never available online.

    Vols 1&2 are still online, they want you to pay for vols 3&4 though.


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    #837
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Annex 1 of this UK government report (2012) has a useful flowchart outlining the IROPI process: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69622/pb13840-habitats-iropi-guide-20121211.pdf


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    #838
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Iwannahurl's comments are correct in that unless there is a seachange in GCC's attitude to car dependence, the new bypass will simply become surrounded by urban sprawl within a decade or two.

    A lot of people here seem to be under the impression that as soon as the new bypass is opened the council will immediately block all planning permissions near the road and make everyone get on bikes. So far we've seen no evidence they've any intention of doing so.


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    #839
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Iwannahurl's comments are correct in that unless there is a seachange in GCC's attitude to car dependence, the new bypass will simply become surrounded by urban sprawl within a decade or two.

    A lot of people here seem to be under the impression that as soon as the new bypass is opened the council will immediately block all planning permissions near the road and make everyone get on bikes. So far we've seen no evidence they've any intention of doing so.

    spacetweek, most of the bypass is not under city council but county council planning control, hence the reason the project is under county council sponsorship.

    There already are very stringent conditions for PP in County Council controlled areas of Castlegar, which covers most of the eastern portion of the bypass (the CC controlled areas are the bits around the river).


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    #840
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    The County Council is sponsoring the bypass, yet for many years they have promoted "measles development" throughout their administrative area.

    The City Council is touting the bypass as their solution to Galway's traffic congestion, yet they have deliberately and systematically promoted car-dependence in the city for decades.

    Can those who created the problem really be trusted to come up with a sustainable solution?

    Personally I think they're going to need their arses kicked hard from outside first. An EU-imposed delay to the mythical bypass might be just what they need to get moving once the arse-kicking commences. I won't hold my breath though.


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    #841
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The City Council is touting the bypass as part of their solution to Galway's traffic congestion, yet they have deliberately and systematically promoted car-dependence in the city for decades.

    fyp

    Be fair, nobody is claiming it to be a panacea (except possibly those that are against it).


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