Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

possible link central heating systems and soaring disease rates

Options
  • 02-03-2013 5:14am
    #1
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭


    Vague plumbing regulations and lack of inspections have left 1000s of people exposed to life threatening diseases. If only one house gets infected by the many 1000s of incorrectly fitted heating systems which have been connected directly to the mains water in the house. Substandard plumbing valves are being used as the only line of defence against a cross contamination of an entire public water mains.It has been standard practise for over 30 years in some country's to fit a dual non return valve on the boundary of the property to protect the public mains.Ireland has been leading Europe in water-borne disease rates for years per head of population in one case 7 times the average.In many of these cases the source has not been found. Is it not about time we looked at the obvious.Central heating systems are category 3 hazard at best some are even a category 5 .Single non return valves or valves containing rubber seals are useless Many systems were filled at construction stage where having worked for years i know hygiene and following regulations are side stepped for profit. Attachment not found.td phone 023.JPG


«134

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,714 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    When was the last death in Ireland that was caused wholly by drinking water that comes from the tap?


  • Options
    #3
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    To answer your question i don't know. In the HPSC reports they do not in most cases publish the exact mode of transmission. Legionellosis disease commonly found in heating systems are transmitted by showers. According to figures published by the EPA 4 outbreaks of e coli were confirmed as related to domestic plumbing system in 2011 .in 2007 Fingal council confirmed that it is possible for public mains to become infected by domestic systems http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/council-confirms-e-coli-in-water-supply-on-swords-estate-323621.html.In my estate all 64 house built around 2002 were incorrectly fitted completely ignoring the boiler instruction manual .


  • Options
    #4
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    You will be happy to know then the new water meters being installed have built in non-return valves!


  • Options
    #5
    corkgsxr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭corkgsxr


    The problem with our water isnt house to house. Its the quality of the water itself. Eu makes standards, ireland lowers the standards because they know they cant meet them and they still cant even meet there own made up low standards.

    Our water system is in a awful condition. Leaks like a sieve and is quite contaminated.


  • Options
    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Shield wrote: »
    When was the last death in Ireland that was caused wholly by drinking water that comes from the tap?

    A lot of heating systems in Ireland are without simple preventive cross contamination measures(filling loops) in their homes, its very plausible for a householder to be drinking their own rad water from their drinking taps under certain circumstances, would it kill you, that I don't know, does it taste nice, nope, should it happen, not when there're are cheap and simplistic preventative methods, why take the risk?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    Outkast_IRE
    Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    gary71 wrote: »
    A lot of heating systems in Ireland are without simple preventive cross contamination measures(filling loops) in their homes, its very plausible for a householder to be drinking their own rad water from their drinking taps under certain circumstances, would it kill you, that I don't know, does it taste nice, nope, should it happen, not when there're are cheap and simplistic preventative methods, why take the risk?
    I would agree whole heartedly with this statement, the amount of "fill loops" permanently connected with little or no non return protection is ridiculous.

    I really do strongly feel that proper building inspections by an independant are needed on every build at regular intervals to do routine checks on all works, including adequate protection of the mains water supply.


  • Options
    #8
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    td phone 005.JPG

    025.JPG

    td phone 023.JPG
    These are the 3 methods used in Trim i have seen so far all built since 2000.
    the hotpress was my house where non return is vertical but in alot of my neighbours houses they are fitted horizontally .
    Two Chinese companies MDs jailed for 16 yrs for selling counterfeit plumbing valves world wide since 2006 they even sold to US army .
    I bought the non return valve in first post from well known plumbing shop the plastic piston is shredding asked were they got it .When i checked with there supplier they told me was not one theirs .They had not supplied this shop since 2007


  • Options
    #9
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    shane0007 wrote: »
    You will be happy to know then the new water meters being installed have built in non-return valves!

    So at least the problem has been spotted which hopefully will protect the public main but what about informing the householders that they have a toxic bomb waiting to leak into their main storage tank and from there into hot water cylinder which will act as the perfect breeding ground for what ever bacteria is in heating system. I have spoken to alot of plumbers most seem to mistakenly think non return valves cannot get stuck open.Have some of these plumbers used the same methodology in public buildings ,schools ,office blocks ,apartment complexes.
    www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046656.htm


  • Options
    #10
    Irish Steve
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    OK, can we please step back a little here, as this is not just a plumbers forum, it's a plumbing forum, I think some clarification is needed here of what we're talking about for the benefit of the non plumbers that may not have a clue what is being talked about.

    The issue highlighted by the OP is that where a house has a pressurised heating system, rather than the older separate open tank vented system, there is the possibility for water from the heating system to back feed into the house, or even possibly the public main, in the event of low pressure in the main as can happen when water is turned off by the supplier for some reason like a break in a main.

    If the non return valve on the heating system is either sticking, faulty or even not present, and the valve that controls the supply to the heating system is open, there is a possibility of water from the heating system being forced back into the domestic pipes by the higher pressure in the pressure vessel. The quality of the water in the heating system is clearly not acceptable in the house supply, and may present a health risk.

    If everything on the system is working correctly, and has been fitted correctly, this is not going to happen.

    If there is no non return valve, there is a risk.

    If the non return valve is a cheap one, it may be a risk,

    If the filling loop is left connected, and the fill tap left on, there is a higher risk.

    If the non return valve is faulty, or sticks, and the incoming supply pressure drops below the heating system pressure, water may flow the wrong way and contaminate the domestic supply.

    There are 2 ways to quickly ensure that this is not a problem.

    Ensure that the valve on the input to the heating loop is turned off.

    Disconnect the heating loop connection.

    The second option may not be possible if the connection has been made in solid pipe or if there is no non return valve on the filling loop.

    If there are 2 tanks in the roof, one storage tank and one header tank for the heating system, this issue is not an issue for you, and you can forget it, the 2 systems are not joined as such.

    If you have a pressurised system, a quick check of what is fitted and how it is connected may be worthwhile, it only needs the local water supplier to turn off the main incoming supply for a fault for this issue to possibly manifest itself,

    If there is any concern, a high quality lever operated ball valve fitted as the first component in the line to the heating system, and turned off unless topping up the heating system for some reason, will prevent any risk of back flow into the domestic system. This is a cheap component, and can usually be quickly and easily fitted to the supply line.

    The ideal situation is a loop similar to this one here, it has a valve for the supply, the pipe can be disconnected from the valve, and there is a non return valve on the other end of the pipe to prevent back flow. After filling, the tap can be turned off, and the hose disconnected, there is then no risk of backflow into the domestic supply.

    A similar hose without the disconnect and non return valve may be a risk, if the supply valve is left open. As long as the supply valve is closed, the risk is minimised, but the best practice is to have the hose disconnected unless maintenance work is being carried out.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Options
    #11
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    Irish Steve wrote: »
    OK, can we please step back a little here, as this is not just a plumbers forum, it's a plumbing forum, I think some clarification is needed here of what we're talking about for the benefit of the non plumbers that may not have a clue what is being talked about.

    The issue highlighted by the OP is that where a house has a pressurised heating system, rather than the older separate open tank vented system, there is the possibility for water from the heating system to back feed into the house, or even possibly the public main, in the event of low pressure in the main as can happen when water is turned off by the supplier for some reason like a break in a main.

    If the non return valve on the heating system is either sticking, faulty or even not present, and the valve that controls the supply to the heating system is open, there is a possibility of water from the heating system being forced back into the domestic pipes by the higher pressure in the pressure vessel. The quality of the water in the heating system is clearly not acceptable in the house supply, and may present a health risk.

    If everything on the system is working correctly, and has been fitted correctly, this is not going to happen.

    If there is no non return valve, there is a risk.

    If the non return valve is a cheap one, it may be a risk,

    If the filling loop is left connected, and the fill tap left on, there is a higher risk.

    If the non return valve is faulty, or sticks, and the incoming supply pressure drops below the heating system pressure, water may flow the wrong way and contaminate the domestic supply.

    There are 2 ways to quickly ensure that this is not a problem.

    Ensure that the valve on the input to the heating loop is turned off.

    Disconnect the heating loop connection.

    The second option may not be possible if the connection has been made in solid pipe or if there is no non return valve on the filling loop.

    If there are 2 tanks in the roof, one storage tank and one header tank for the heating system, this issue is not an issue for you, and you can forget it, the 2 systems are not joined as such.

    If you have a pressurised system, a quick check of what is fitted and how it is connected may be worthwhile, it only needs the local water supplier to turn off the main incoming supply for a fault for this issue to possibly manifest itself,

    If there is any concern, a high quality lever operated ball valve fitted as the first component in the line to the heating system, and turned off unless topping up the heating system for some reason, will prevent any risk of back flow into the domestic system. This is a cheap component, and can usually be quickly and easily fitted to the supply line.

    The ideal situation is a loop similar to this one here, it has a valve for the supply, the pipe can be disconnected from the valve, and there is a non return valve on the other end of the pipe to prevent back flow. After filling, the tap can be turned off, and the hose disconnected, there is then no risk of backflow into the domestic supply.

    A similar hose without the disconnect and non return valve may be a risk, if the supply valve is left open. As long as the supply valve is closed, the risk is minimised, but the best practice is to have the hose disconnected unless maintenance work is being carried out.
    I agree with you but the problem is that my estate is 10/12 years old and not one plumber or boiler service engineer or anyone else has bothered to inform the householders that they might have a problem.I Have spoken to one of the head heating engineers in Fingal cc he said it is a wide spread practice .I have also spoke to Vokera head service manager and he has confirmed that he has seen this practise countrywide and also said that my boiler 28e with only .5 bar pressure is like driving a car at 10 mph in 5th gear it will run but will not run efficiently


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    corkgsxr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭corkgsxr


    tonyroc wrote: »
    I agree with you but the problem is that my estate is 10/12 years old and not one plumber or boiler service engineer or anyone else has bothered to inform the householders that they might have a problem.I Have spoken to one of the head heating engineers in Fingal cc he said it is a wide spread practice .I have also spoke to Vokera head service manager and he has confirmed that he has seen this practise countrywide and also said that my boiler 28e with only .5 bar pressure is like driving a car at 10 mph in 5th gear it will run but will not run efficiently

    Pressurised systems are better for filling and pumping around. Nothing wrong with a low pressure system as such.

    Not a fan of auto filling valves myself much better off with a flexy filling loop


  • Options
    #13
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    corkgsxr wrote: »

    Not a fan of auto filling valves myself much better off with a flexy filling loop

    Agreed, I always feel auto fillers in a house are masking an underlying problem with the system, most often a leak, which in turn dilutes any inhibitor that may be in the system.
    Also its not a bad idea to stick a blank cap on the filling valve after disconnection in case its accidently opened and another one on the non return valve in case it starts letting water pass back.


  • Options
    #14
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    look lads most of you who have posted so far seem to have a good knowledge on the issue of back flow prevention but i joined boards.ie this week to try and expose the scale of the problem.Because of the type of cross connection in my estate there is a RISK of contamination from the heating system and that is a fact however the chances of public water mains getting contaminated is slim . .But in the two other estates i have checked they are connected directly to mains with inadequate valves used and so the public water mains is at risk .These estates have around 1000 units .Now Trim is only a small town so if this is country wide a figure of 100,000 or more could be possible .So is it not also possible that some of these systems were never even flushed so what kind of bacteria could be in them ?Chances are high that at least ONE will back flow.One public water main line could have how many houses?In Clontarf last August 1400 houses contaminated on one line and they are still not sure of source .I am not having a go at the plumbers, it is the lack of regulations and inspections that is to blame .I had a guy start for me last year after looking at his work for a hour i asked him where he got his papers . www.ableskills.co.uk/ so any muppet with a few grand now can have city & guilds with feck all practical work.I know of companies set up by accountants and others who were allowed to operate in all the different trades.To register as a builder less than €500 to set up company


  • Options
    #15
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    Shield wrote: »
    When was the last death in Ireland that was caused wholly by drinking water that comes from the tap?

    I could have killed myself in the shower 4 days ago i just don't know yet


  • Options
    #16
    DanWall
    Registered Users Posts: 509 ✭✭✭DanWall


    Why don't we concentrate on the flouride problem at the moment? we are getting in 100% of household


  • Options
    #17
    JohnnieK
    Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    I'm sitting here reading all this and a thought has popped into my head. I am trying to think when Auto-fill valves (Pressure reducing valves) first appeared in domestic heating system and for the life of me I just don't know. It's like one day they where not there and the next they where.

    I also find a blank expression on most householders face's when you explain these things to them, and they just want you out so they can go and do things with there money other than correcting these issues.

    I agree completely with tonyroc in this matter.

    One example of this.

    I fitted a boiler for a lady two years ago, fixed a leak and instlled a filling loop because the 367 gate valve was passing:rolleyes: Last summer she called me to say the pressure was low and could I come over, I was too busy that day so she said there was a guy who done her bathroom last week and would I mind if she called him, fire away I said.

    About 3 weeks later it was due a service so I called her. I was working away on the boiler and she said the pressure was down because he replaced the rad in the bathroom and for got to refill. She then said "oh by the way the guy told me that you cut corners by not leaving a proper filling point" I went up stairs and low and be hold he replace my proper filling loop with the scourge of my life an auto fill valve WTF.

    I honestly dont know if some plumbers are just dumb, couldn't careless or something else.

    I think complete supervision of the industry is needed sooner rather than later.


  • Options
    #18
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    Thanks for for that post Johnniek i was starting to think i was going mad and i know what you mean about blank expressions.When i try and tell people they just think i am after money .Most of the treatment plants and water mains have been brought up to standard over the last 6/7 years only because EU put pressure on .So now in theory we should have less reported diseases.But if you check www.HPSC.ie publications you get a different story .I have thousands of pages of research in support of my theory but it is like banging my head off a wall to get Government depts to listen.Till our constitution is changed so that ministers are liable for their actions or lack of nothing will change in this country.The yanks are 30 years ahead of us on contamination the same as they were with pyrite
    http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/disinfection/tcr/pdfs/issuepaper_tcr_crossconnection-backflow.pdf


  • Options
    #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Auto-fillers or as we from da streets:cool: call um "Gangster valves" cos only gangsters fit um.


  • Options
    #20
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    The more plumbers posting the stronger the case.How many more estates out there? number of houses only.Every house needs to be checked ask your plumber to show you how central heating system is filled with water .Post the answer here or a picture will do.


  • Options
    #21
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    If the plumbers out there don't speak up they are as bad as the murders that put them in .


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    tonyroc wrote: »
    If the plumbers out there don't speak up they are as bad as the murders that put them in .

    Now thats a bit ott.

    The gas network has regulation which is highly enforced. The building network has regulation thats loosely enforced. You want to change this?

    Lobby govt.

    If you fail to get a satasfactory reply lobby the EU.

    Change starts with you.


  • Options
    #23
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    That's what i have been doing but getting no where keep getting pushed from one dept. to next ,i just thought some of the plumbers on board might speak up about how wide spread this is and the possible dangers associated with this practise .Maybe i am being a little ott but the most at risk are the young children and the old and to lobby i need the support of the trades the ones who saw the conditions these systems were connected in .I am sure alot of these systems were never even flushed so the fluids in them could be alot more infected than people think.One example 50,000 died from the plague in Dublin alone they burned the bodies but where did they bury them ? he soil could still be contaminated .In major city all sorts of land was built on .
    Risks which can be avoided should be .The home is meant to be safe environment but it could be a death chamber remember these systems are suppose to last 30-40 years .Some of the consequences of infection could take years to show themselves .It is a risk and Risk should be treated as extreme till proved otherwise .Some one get a leak in a house so they turn a valve on or off in a hot press trying to stop house being damaged at the same time the mains pressure is low what happens ? Then you have the cowboys.There are any number of ways this can happen and i cant do this myself i need help from responsible trades people as in Photos and numbers and areas not estate names because some will try and make a a quick quid.I need water tested but i am struggling to pay mortgage myself i cannot afford to do this.I need academics to check my research .The regulations will be tightened eventually but what about the systems that could be leaking right now.


  • Options
    #24
    corkgsxr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭corkgsxr


    Your starting to sound like a loon. Plague bodys ffs.

    The condition of our mains water is ****ed anyway. More bad stuff your drinking everyday than the million in one chance a heating system is going to backflow and be in high enough concentration to harm ya.


  • Options
    #25
    corkgsxr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭corkgsxr


    Read this. https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:GOJJ4gMvO_4J:www.esri.ie/__uuid/42d548e3-c7a0-40e6-af0c-62bf2d44ae8d/RB20090203.pdf+&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj22zlON0kj1VMyKTvSavtLq48r8BUSf9JWjHtQkVBJJhvYHsDo5UdtyvnbSBU3oYqjETFvqdcgNbW9xF_hLV6YNornr_lJvk18S1DhYVymJfcWBQfw6XZ6boUfZEgZV4hphvaN&sig=AHIEtbT6y3zPIO4VqypkuxMre4iPOhICRg&rlz=1Y1XIUG_enIE517IE517

    All county's water tested by the ersi, and those standards arent eu standards there special irish lowered standards that there failing to meet


  • Options
    #26
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    tonyroc wrote: »
    That's what i have been doing but getting no where keep getting pushed from one dept. to next ,i just thought some of the plumbers on board might speak up about how wide spread this is and the possible dangers associated with this practise .Maybe i am being a little ott but the most at risk are the young children and the old and to lobby i need the support of the trades the ones who saw the conditions these systems were connected in .I am sure alot of these systems were never even flushed so the fluids in them could be alot more infected than people think.One example 50,000 died from the plague in Dublin alone they burned the bodies but where did they bury them ? he soil could still be contaminated .In major city all sorts of land was built on .
    Risks which can be avoided should be .The home is meant to be safe environment but it could be a death chamber remember these systems are suppose to last 30-40 years .Some of the consequences of infection could take years to show themselves .It is a risk and Risk should be treated as extreme till proved otherwise .Some one get a leak in a house so they turn a valve on or off in a hot press trying to stop house being damaged at the same time the mains pressure is low what happens ? Then you have the cowboys.There are any number of ways this can happen and i cant do this myself i need help from responsible trades people as in Photos and numbers and areas not estate names because some will try and make a a quick quid.I need water tested but i am struggling to pay mortgage myself i cannot afford to do this.I need academics to check my research .The regulations will be tightened eventually but what the systems that could be leaking right now.
    The New Me is really trying to stay as the New Me but I am really struggling here.
    All I will say (for now) is "Hmmmm....."


  • Options
    #27
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    One in a million makes me laught you don't seem to understand the reason theses valves are not ment to be used is because they can and do leak some valves have a leak tolarance .One I checked had a 1 drop per minute allowed tolerance , then the cheap fakes , substandard ones .pipework and valves imported from god knows where already contaminated and made from substandard meterials.Looking over some of your posts you talk about valves failing .Can you 100% tell me what's in theses fluids I would douth it , cowboys putting in wrong chemicals and so on can you say 100% that dosent happen ?


  • Options
    #28
    corkgsxr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭corkgsxr


    shane0007 wrote: »
    The New Me is really trying to stay as the New Me but I am really struggling here.
    All I will say (for now) is "Hmmmm....."

    But shane there going to kill us all. Im super serious.


    Tony what about the open systems where the small tank is sitting on top of the cold water tank and the overflow just points down into the cold tank. Much more likely to harm ya

    Or what about dual tanks that the ballcock and the outlets are both on the same tank?


  • Options
    #29
    corkgsxr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭corkgsxr


    And most cowboys dont put in chemicals.


  • Options
    #30
    tonyroc
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tonyroc


    Ok I know I could be abit ott on some points in relation to fluid make up but when dealing with a possible health hazard one must treat it as worst possible case till it is proved otherwise .on a side note why did regulators and planners let so many houses be built with no alternative Heat source if there was an extended electric blackout in weather like we had 2 yrs ago -16 and gas pressure dropped because no power to pump it how many would die from exposure ?. Am I off the wall about that too ?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    corkgsxr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭corkgsxr


    tonyroc wrote: »
    Ok I know I could be abit ott on some points in relation to fluid make up but when dealing with a possible health hazard one must treat it as worst possible case till it is proved otherwise .on a side note why did regulators and planners let so many houses be built with no alternative Heat source if there was an extended electric blackout in weather like we had 2 yrs ago -16 and gas pressure dropped because no power to pump it how many would die from exposure ?. Am I off the wall about that too ?

    Ya you are. Light a fire. Buy a ol oil rad.

    In cork we had power and gas. Many had no water but had plenty of gas and power.


    Tell me what you would install for secondary heat that doesn't use power gas or water.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement