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A career in Information Technology?

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  • 19-02-2013 11:15pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 35


    Hi guys,

    Mature student here (early 30s) with a degree in business but looking for a change since nothing has really come up in this area for me. I've had a number of people suggesting to me to do something in IT but I always respond with 'like what/there's quite a lot under the IT umbrella/etc'. It's not that easy to go 'yeah, sure, let's go'.

    So for a person who needs to brush up on their mathematical studies, what's a good way of approaching this? What can I do beforehand to see if this is really for me/if I can do this? And also, suggestions as to some areas that would be best focused on?

    Thanks.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭franktheplank


    A lot of colleges now are offering one year conversion courses to get into software development. I'm doing one at the moment, it's tough work but we're learning a lot.

    Our course (I can't speak for them all), seems to be having a fairly high drop out/failure rate. We're straight in for a couple of modules with 3rd and 4th year computer science students, so you're expected to get your head round fairly complicated stuff pretty quickly (that said most of the lecturers are great).

    I'd strongly recommend doing your research beforehand to make sure programming is for you. If not there's plenty of other IT areas you might like sales/support/hardware/networking, I don't know a whole lot about them, I'm sure it's the same thing, do your research first and make sure it's for you before choosing.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    You could try out some techy things to see if they appeal to you.

    There's lots of beginner free courses online for programming and/or web development, so you could try some of them out and see if you find yourself enjoying it. You could also look at things like the computer forums here on Boards, or other tech support forums around the web and see if the idea of building and repairing PCs or doing troubleshooting and tech support holds any appeal to you.

    If none of the techy things appeal to you, there's still lots of non-techy or soft-techy roles in the IT field. There's always a need for business/process analysts, project managers etc. You business degree will be a big help there, but it would also help a lot to have some type of IT knowledge or skillset so you could look for IT or Computing or possibly MIS courses to help make you more IT focused.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11



    Our course (I can't speak for them all), seems to be having a fairly high drop out/failure rate. We're straight in for a couple of modules with 3rd and 4th year computer science students, so you're expected to get your head round fairly complicated stuff pretty quickly (that said most of the lecturers are great).

    How many dropped out in your course?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    I did a conversion course. The majority were not fit for it and had no aptitude for computers. It was a disgrace the tricks the lecturers came up with to ensure everyone passed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,402 ✭✭✭✭Trojan


    I went through IT system - where we got qualifications after 2nd, 3rd and 4th year; Nat. Cert, Diploma, Degree.

    Dropout was 50% every year after 1st, 2nd and 3rd years. I think that's around par for Software Development and related courses.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    tony81 wrote: »
    I did a conversion course. The majority were not fit for it and had no aptitude for computers. It was a disgrace the tricks the lecturers came up with to ensure everyone passed.

    And when you go out looking for a job your course will be represented by them making it harder to find a job. Also in my experience the computing modules are half continuous assessment which covers up the big gaps in knowledge when it comes to exams, that if thelectures don't tell you exactly whats coming up on them.

    Did many drop out in your course tony or did they just struggle along?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    People just struggled along... Lecturers did as much as possible for them: slowed the pace of the course, gave exam "hints", ignored plagiarism where people clearly got help with CAs, and hand-picked people for group projects so each team had one strong person who carried the group.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    tony81 wrote: »
    People just struggled along... Lecturers did as much as possible for them: slowed the pace of the course, gave exam "hints", ignored plagiarism where people clearly got help with CAs, and hand-picked people for group projects so each team had one strong person who carried the group.

    I have seen this and worse in undergrads too tbh, it is fairly common in every course and CS is known for high dropout rates in 1st and subsequent years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭lemon_remon


    Bear in mind, with any "IT" related degree, it won't necessarily get you a job. It isn't like a business degree where it is difficult to demonstrate knowledge in an interview situation. With an "IT" related degree, you may get in the door for an interview with a degree but if you can't demonstrate the knowledge you claim you simply won't get offered a position. It is also possible to demonstrate knowledge without a degree, which is quite difference to a business (or whatever) degree, with project samples and code. In other words, don't fret too much over which course to do, it isn't as important as it may seem, they definitely help but it isn't about what piece of paper you have, it's about what you can do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    In other words, don't fret too much over which course to do, it isn't as important as it may seem

    My point was be careful what course you do.. because so many terrible grads are coming out with second class honours and even first-class honours. There are rarely any minimum entry standards or aptitude tests for admission to these courses, and couple that with the fact that colleges try to pass as many people as possible, it really undermines the qualification.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭lemon_remon


    tony81 wrote: »
    My point was be careful what course you do.. because so many terrible grads are coming out with second class honours and even first-class honours. There are rarely any minimum entry standards or aptitude tests for admission to these courses, and couple that with the fact that colleges try to pass as many people as possible, it really undermines the qualification.

    What I was trying to get across is the grade doesn't matter, neither does the college you went to. It's about demonstrable skill.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35 Brion


    Thanks for all the replies guys, only getting to check this thread now. Must say that building/repairing PCs does not appeal to me at all. Just couldn't see myself doing that.
    There's lots of beginner free courses online for programming and/or web development

    Appreciate it if you could point me towards some of the better ones! Maybe something like a 10 week course to see if I'm cut out for this?

    What areas/languages would you recommend focusing on?


    Will look through the other replies later!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    Brion wrote: »

    What areas/languages would you recommend focusing on?


    Michael-Jackson-Eating-Popcorn.gif


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    I also have a business degree, which is turning out to be useless. Although in fairness the head of the department called me into his office one day and said if I don't plan on moving to London or New York I'll have a very hard time of it.

    I've always been interested in computers, just being slightly nerdy and I've been trying to learn programming for a while. I've bought a few books and followed tutorials online and they've all been useless. I get to the end of them and know how to do what it said in the book, but don't have a clue with how I could use it elsewhere.

    That being said, I've started the EdX (Harvard, MIT, etc.) online course now. I tried it last year but was too busy with the final months of a contract position. I've started again a few weeks ago and my experience of it is excellent. Where the books and things layout steps you follow, and you change a few variables to give yourself a pat on the back, the EdX one actually makes you think. They explain the theory and go into the majority of what's needed but they don't lay out absolutely everything. You do have to do work to get past the different elements. I've done three weeks so far, which involves lots of small exercises and two big sets of programming (relatively) which have actually made me think.

    What's also great is that they give you the tools needed to check your own work. They have an automated grader and provide test cases that you can use to see if you're correct.

    I've been accepted on a FAS Java Associate course, and to be honest I'm genuinely worried that despite it being a full day course running for half a year it won't be near as good as what EdX provides.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35 Brion


    Thanks Lyaiera. I see I've missed 3 weeks of this course (https://www.edx.org/courses/MITx/6.00x/2013_Spring/about)...would it be too late to begin?

    And for someone with zero programming knowledge, do you think it's still a good one to try?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    Brion wrote: »
    Thanks Lyaiera. I see I've missed 3 weeks of this course (https://www.edx.org/courses/MITx/6.00x/2013_Spring/about)...would it be too late to begin?

    And for someone with zero programming knowledge, do you think it's still a good one to try?

    If you're willing to put in two weeks of a decent amount of work, you should still be able to get a high mark. The lowest of your week's problem sets are excluded from the final result.

    If you're not interested in the final marks, you can follow along the videos. I'm not too sure if the automatic grader will continue to work though, and a lot of the learning is from working out how to do the challenges set.

    There are social media groups and IRC channels for discussion though, so you can find help quite easily. They also have a pretty decent built in forum system.

    I'd say give it a go for the next two weeks and see if you like it. If you do like it you'll catch up quickly and I find it very beneficial. It will take a bit of determination though. I missed out on last week's stuff because I had things come up and I bought about 24 hours into it this week to get up to date as of 6am this morning.

    Edit: The first week has about two or three hours of work but you can still do that stuff no problem. The second week has about an hour and a half of videos and maybe two hours of "small" questions, you'll do them even faster if you have a bit of experience. And if you get the idea quickly you can easily have the second week's problem set done in two or three hours. At that point you'd have a full week to catch up on the problem set for week three, and that's very easily managed.

    Second edit: I just saw you said you have no programming experience. The pro to that is you haven't wasted your time with rubbish. I would say you'd have to use the course's automatic, "discard your lowest week" thing for the second week (the first week sort of doesn't count.) But all in all it's definitely worth trying. It really is the best course I have ever found online.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    I did Engineering 16 years ago and I have worked in software development since. One thing I'd say about college is people actually teach you stuff. In the real world, you learn 95% of things yourself. So for example, your company might decide to change database or web technology and you have to just pick it up.

    Point being is that in this industry there is a lot of "constant learning". No other industry is like it. If you were a physio for example, 95% of what you need to know you learn at college. Whereas IT 5% comes from college, the 95% you self learn.

    And if you can't self learn you won't like it or you won't be able to hack it.
    The only options are to go into management or to get another career.

    The constant learning is a major major contributor to burnout. The last four years, I have spent half my annual leave trying to learn new things. Just to keep up to date. You have to do this, if you want to be at senior level unless the company you are working in is using the latest technologies which is rarely the case.

    Now, if you are a mega genius you won't have to spend as long as others to keep up to date and you are definitely suited to IT but in my experience only 2% - 5% are at the level. I have seen some guys who can take something complex and read it about it once and get it straight away and retain it for years. Most people need to go thru it a few times and then get it and then to re-read it to brush up on it.

    Those that can't self learn - eventually depart IT.

    It's a tough career a lot is expected of you. Whereas if you were in finance or accounting you would not have the same amount of constant learning and possibly make more money.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Whereas IT 5% comes from college, the 95% you self learn.
    That's very true, but the big benefit of what you learn in college is that it should give you a good grounding in a lot of the theory which can help you learn the practical stuff afterwards.

    For e.g. you might learn about relational databases, how normalisation works, how to use keys, indexes, what the different locks are for etc. Then when you go to learn SQL Server or Oracle, you're at least familiar with a lot of the principles, you know more or less what the mechanisms are for and you just need to learn about the specific implementations of them.

    When I was doing a degree in Comp Sci, I spent a lot of the time moaning about how it was too focused on theory and not enough on the practical, but in the years since that theory has been a big help in learning all the practical stuff that I have needed.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Brion wrote: »
    What areas/languages would you recommend focusing on?
    Like Michael Jackson suggests above, that's a question that can be loaded with controversy :)

    What I would suggest is that you first decide if you want to either A) Try software development in general, or B) Try a particular type of software development (i.e. Windows applications, Web development, phone applications etc).

    In general I'd suggest A) to people. It will give you the best grounding in the basics, and you can focus on building on them rather than having to worry about the specific nuances of say web development or phone development. It will also mean you can then easily specialise in different branches down the line, or jump between them easily. If you're going to go this route I'd recommend learning either C# or Java. They're both widely used, modern languages that support all the features you could want. They're both flexible, they can be used for windows apps, web sites, web services, phone apps etc. And both have a load of tutorials available. I personally prefer C# because it allows for development with the Microsoft suite of products, and there's always plenty of work in that. But Java is hard to argue against, and there's always plenty of work there too. You really can't go wrong with either of them.

    The benefit of going the B) route is that it may be more interesting. Some people will pick a project, say a website or a phone app, and learn through building that. That can be a great way to keep yourself motivated, but it can be harder, because you have to deal with extra stuff. For e.g. if you wanted to build a website you would typically also have to learn some amount of HTML, Javascript, CSS and some type of database, all on top of whatever server side programming language you choose. Like with anything else, trying to learn too much at once, can often mean you take shortcuts and miss important bits of understanding that will hinder you down the line. But with that said, having a particular project or goal to work towards is powerful motivation, and if you break it down right and go about it step by step it can be a good way to learn too. If you do go this route, the technology/languages etc to learn will very much depend on what it is you are trying to achieve.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    stevenmu wrote: »
    That's very true, but the big benefit of what you learn in college is that it should give you a good grounding in a lot of the theory which can help you learn the practical stuff afterwards.

    For e.g. you might learn about relational databases, how normalisation works, how to use keys, indexes, what the different locks are for etc. Then when you go to learn SQL Server or Oracle, you're at least familiar with a lot of the principles, you know more or less what the mechanisms are for and you just need to learn about the specific implementations of them.

    When I was doing a degree in Comp Sci, I spent a lot of the time moaning about how it was too focused on theory and not enough on the practical, but in the years since that theory has been a big help in learning all the practical stuff that I have needed.
    All very true. Coming from an engineering background there was probably more to learn as you didn't learn any of those basics. I actually only recently learnt how sometimes languages can optimise tail based recursion so that it is not much slower than iteration.

    I have to say there are some people in this industry who are not always spending their time keeping up to date but they are usually good at politics or something else. The industry also has its fair share of bull sh*tters as well. We have all seen endless amounts of crap code. And there's also people who just stay at the one company for 10+ years - they know how that company works and their products very well so there isn't as much pressure on them to learn the latest specs. But if they wanted to change job there would be.

    Anyway, I suppose if someone asks me what this industry is like I am assuming they don't fancy being a bull sh*tter or a political animal and want something they might enjoy.

    I.T. is a tough tough career. The government have this notion that if you create a load of this conversion courses you have created loads of good careers - you haven't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    I.T. is a tough tough career. The government have this notion that if you create a load of this conversion courses you have created loads of good careers - you haven't.

    That's my issue. I've been accepted to a Java Associate course and have applied to a broader IT course (CIT's Cloud Computing one.) I just don't think I can learn enough in a year to be competitive with guys who have done a four year CS course. Even if I excel in the course I'd be shocked if a guy with average marks in a CS degree didn't know far more than me. And even CS guys are going unemployed at the moment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    Whereas if you were in finance or accounting you would not have the same amount of constant learning and possibly make more money.

    Not necessarily. In accounting it is easy to get pigeon-holed, and if the job gets petty or stressful, or due to redundancy, and you leave it can be difficult to return to employment. Newly qualified, younger accountants are willing to work for less.

    Accountants are expected to do 40 hours of cpd a year. Accounting, audit, tax and compliance regulations change, and new systems can be introduced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    I.T. is a tough tough career.

    I dont think thats true at all. There are far more difficult ways to make a good living. I sometimes feel guilty that I get paid so much to do so little.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭tony81


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    That's my issue. I've been accepted to a Java Associate course and have applied to a broader IT course (CIT's Cloud Computing one.) I just don't think I can learn enough in a year to be competitive with guys who have done a four year CS course. Even if I excel in the course I'd be shocked if a guy with average marks in a CS degree didn't know far more than me. And even CS guys are going unemployed at the moment.

    Well consider a level 7 CS degree. It contains Maths, marketing, professional studies, video editing, and a lot of other undergraduate padding... In fact about 36 different modules which usually don't follow on from each other though some do. A well-run one year post-grad diploma could focus on a few good modules. I did such a course though the standard of most participants and about 1/2 of the lecturers were beyond crap. However the exams were comparable in both courses. Put it this way, I'd be sickened if I did the 3-year degree over the 1 year h.dip.

    As for 4 year courses... Haven't looked into the 4th year, but i'd imagine you'd be right... Hard to compete directly eg java skills vs java skills. But many (most?) Undergrads don't have previous work experience so don't try to compete directly with them. Previous domain experience and professionalism through corporate work experience can get you an entry-level i.t role.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    That's my issue. I've been accepted to a Java Associate course and have applied to a broader IT course (CIT's Cloud Computing one.) I just don't think I can learn enough in a year to be competitive with guys who have done a four year CS course. Even if I excel in the course I'd be shocked if a guy with average marks in a CS degree didn't know far more than me. And even CS guys are going unemployed at the moment.

    Some of the best people I have worked with just did one year conversion courses. The thing with IT is normal rules just don't apply.

    The number one thing I'd say about IT is that it is a tough tough career. One of the best people I have ever worked with super genius couldn't hack it and burnt out and went for a career change. Now immediately you'd think why did he burn out.

    Well Software entropy happens in every project - complexity goes way up usually because of crap code, bad designs and poor architecture. But you still have deadlines. This means you spend more and more time late at night debugging crap code to try and get something working and make your deadlines.

    This happens on every project and it frustrates the sh*t out of people. It is also something that no university in the world prepares you for.

    I have been in this industry 16 years and made it thru two down turns. 2001 - 2004 and 2009. I expect another big downturn around 2016. Why?

    The 2009 downturn was not that bad as a lot of people stayed away from IT after the 2001 - 2004 .dot com bubble crashed. This meant there were not as many victims in 2009. However, now the government have decided to throw a load of people in IT again.

    So expect a bigger fallout in 2016.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    I dont think thats true at all. There are far more difficult ways to make a good living. I sometimes feel guilty that I get paid so much to do so little.

    I don't think I have met anyone in this industry who thinks that so fair play to you.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Like many careers, IT isn't a tough career if it's one you've chosen out of a genuine interest for the subject. If people are doing it because 'it's a good career' then they will probably find it harder.

    Unfortunately, many now fall into the latter group. Where people used to be told to get a job in the civil service, or work for a bank, they're now being directed towards IT.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35 Brion


    Quite a bit to take in here guys but appreciating the discussion :)

    Lyaiera - I didn't manage to get Problem Set 2 in on time which is a shame but I rushed through the videos + exercises without fully understanding everything that was going on. Week 1 was generally okay but I'm a bit rusty on my math so some things take a few times to read over. Week 2 I found to be a bit more difficult but hopefully this was more down to me worrying about getting Pset2 done in time.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 35 Brion


    Graham wrote: »
    Like many careers, IT isn't a tough career if it's one you've chosen out of a genuine interest for the subject. If people are doing it because 'it's a good career' then they will probably find it harder.

    Unfortunately, many now fall into the latter group. Where people used to be told to get a job in the civil service, or work for a bank, they're now being directed towards IT.

    If it's any use to you I did contemplate an IT course in DCU many years back :)


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