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HSE stoops to an new low.

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    #32
    mitosis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    Bills were previously issued after treatment, I don't ever remember complaints.
    I mean this isn't for something minor it's for Chemo ffs!
    it is certainly concerning the Irish Cancer Society
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-cancer-society-worried-by-chemotherapy-prices-578104.html

    The trouble is, and I speak from experience, if you invoice after treatment there is less chance you'll get paid. I am impressed they only charge 75.00, the treatment must cost 10X that.


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    #33
    Clarehobo
    Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭Clarehobo


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    The difference is that if you have a chemo appointment tomorrow and you don't have €75 you dont get the life saving treatment:mad:

    Have they actually turned people away because they don't have the €75?

    To be honest, if people can afford it they should be billed up front. If people can't afford it, they should be issued a medical card or waiver to cover their treatment while they are ill.


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    #34
    HondaSami
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭HondaSami


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    The issue is demanding payment up front, it amounts to pay us now or die!
    It was previously the case that you were billed AFTER the treatment, with so many people now in deep financial trouble it is unjustifiable that they are to be charged per treatment in advance!

    I think the problem is people are not paying after the treatment. Im sure it is stressful enough without having this financial burden as well but the treatment is not free.
    What is the alternative, how would you propose they get people to pay?


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    #35
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cancer-patients-are-asked-to-pay-up-front-for-chemo-3327217.html

    It is hard to believe that people are being asked to pay up front to recieve life saving chemotherapy!
    These outpatients are being asked to pay up front for chemotherapy treatment at €75 a go.
    "This is happening in Dublin and outside Dublin in other hospitals.

    "They are being asked to pay immediately. This appears to be an HSE directive sent out to all hospitals. It's not just one or two hospitals."

    How low can the Health Service Executive stoop?

    It is the standard hospital charge, I agree that in such cases it should be scraped in the subject cannot pay. However, what I want to know is what happens if the person says I don't have it on me, send me the bill. I would imagine treatment is not denied?

    Cancer treatment should come under LTI imo.


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    #36
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    HondaSami wrote: »
    I think the problem is people are not paying after the treatment. Im sure it is stressful enough without having this financial burden as well but the treatment is not free.
    What is the alternative, how would you propose they get people to pay?[/QUOTE]
    The same way they did until a month ago, when they suddenly changed how they bill.


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    #37
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    Clarehobo wrote: »
    Have they actually turned people away because they don't have the €75?

    To be honest, if people can afford it they should be billed up front. If people can't afford it, they should be issued a medical card or waiver to cover their treatment while they are ill.

    Absolutely.

    But in the process of and wait in determining if people can afford it up front they'd be left to die.

    I went to A&E and was sent for surgery with 36 hours with a serious condition that had the possibility of escalating to serious permanent injury and possibly death. According to my files I was deemed to be able to afford it up front. I got the bill a few weeks later and wrote back showing them my income and the entire bill was waived. If I had to pay for it up front I could have died.


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    #38
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    the first I heard of this new measure was this mornings news. Was there any word or warning of it in the last few months, I dont remember hearing a thing until today.


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    #39
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Confab wrote: »
    I wasn't joking. Chemo drugs are very expensive. They could charge people the full whack if they want. Why should people get free treatment if they don't have a medical card or private health insurance?

    Why do you think they have neither?


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    #40
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Confab wrote: »
    €75 for a chemotherapy session sounds like a bargain tbh.

    Reminds me of the american expression: people who say they dont worry about money dont worry about it because they always had it.

    75 can be either a little or a lot depending on your finances. If people havent got it to pay up front it provides unacceptable stress to those with cancer. Stress and cancer are not good combinations. The HSE should issue a statement on this to put peoples minds at ease.


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    #41
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Why do you think they have neither?

    Because they are deemed to have sufficient income to afford the heavily subsidised charges.

    The €75 charge per visit is capped at a maximum of €750 per year- less than the average annual charge for insurance.


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    #42
    flutered
    Registered Users Posts: 6,676 ✭✭✭flutered


    Confab wrote: »
    I wasn't joking. Chemo drugs are very expensive. They could charge people the full whack if they want. Why should people get free treatment if they don't have a medical card or private health insurance?

    am i under the mistaken impression that all cancer drugs/treatment are free to everyone, i do not have to pay the levy on the drugs that i collect from the chemist for my oncologist to administer.


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    #43
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    Seeing as most of the country is covered by Medical Card, much of the rest by private insurance, this won't impact a large amount of people.

    My last visit to the hospital involved:
    - An ambulance trip.
    - 2 paramedics.
    - An A&E bed for 1/2 a day.
    - A small procedure under local anastetic.
    - Some pain-killing drugs while I was there.

    I was tended to pretty well.
    A week later I got my bill, I think it was €75-ish.
    I paid & I was gratefull I did not have to bear the full price despite not having insurance or medical card.


    TL/DR version:
    Just because its the "Big C" people shouldn't lose sight of the care & cost of care that we receive, whether its cancer or a broken finger.
    Being asked to contribute a fraction of that cost is far from 'stooping to a new low'.


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    #44
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #45
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    spank_inferno wrote: »
    Seeing as most of the country is covered by Medical Card, much of the rest by private insurance, this won't impact a large amount of people.

    My last visit to the hospital involved:
    An ambulance trip.
    2 paramedics.
    An A&E bed for 1/2 a day.
    A small procedure under local anastetic.
    Some pain-killing drugs while I was there.

    I was tended to pretty well.

    A week later I got my bill, I think it was €75-ish.

    I paid & I was gratefull I did not have to bear the full price despite not having insurance or medical card.


    TL/DR version:
    Just because its the "Big C" people shouldn't lose sight of the care & cost of care that we receive, whether its cancer or a broken finger.
    Being asked to contribute a fraction of that cost is far from 'stooping to a new low'.

    I agree I am grateful for the service and the affordable price. Affordable to me that is. A large number of irish families (40%) I think have less than a hundred left at the end of the month. Not all have the medical card and not all have insurance.


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    #46
    ShiverinEskimo
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 18,115 ✭✭✭✭ShiverinEskimo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Some people do need perspective alright - people like you.

    All well and good saying 75 euro is one day's work in a job. It's a moot point for the majority of cancer patients who are physically incapable of working.

    40% of job-seekers allowance is a MASSIVE chunk.

    Perspective - you're a cancer patient in the sticks who can't work and has to drive 2 hours to St. Vincents or St. Luke's in Dublin paying petrol, tolls and parking in doing so which you can't claim back. Except you're high on morphine-based painkillers so you can't drive, so your spouse, sibling, child, friend, neighbour has to take a day off to drive you there and back.

    That 40% of your jobseekers allowance suddenly becomes 50 or 60 percent. Then you have to drop 127 euro to the chemist for the prescription you got when you saw the oncologist. Oops. There we go - jobseekers allowance gone. I guess it's lucky your appetite is the first thing to go during Chemo because you won't be eating fúck all with the money you might have left.

    Given the cost of these treatments runs into hundreds of thousands it's a total slap in the face to THE most vulnerable people in society to shake them down for 75 quid at the time when they are least likely to be able to afford it.

    Charge the 75, but bill them and if/when they recover. Work a payment plan out when the patient can return to work or can spare more of their dole and have some chance of paying it off. Not unreasonable.


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    #47
    Cee-Jay-Cee
    Registered Users Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    WileyCoyote wrote: »

    The issue is demanding payment up front, it amounts to pay us now or die!
    It was previously the case that you were billed AFTER the treatment, with so many people now in deep financial trouble it is unjustifiable that they are to be charged per treatment in advance!

    And it generally wasn't paid so now they ask in advance. I don't see the problem, your being provided with a very expensive treatment and asked to pay a nominal amount in advance. If I had cancer the €75 fee would be the least of my worries.


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    #48
    ShiverinEskimo
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 18,115 ✭✭✭✭ShiverinEskimo


    CJC999 wrote: »
    If I had cancer the €75 fee would be the least of my worries.

    It would be your only worry if you didn't have €75.


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    #49
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Sure they've increments to pay, can be wasting money on those scummy sick people

    €266m top-ups are paid out to HSE staff



    Bloody sick people ruining the HSE for the rest of us


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    #50
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    ShiverinEskimo wrote: »
    Some people do need perspective alright - people like you.

    All well and good saying 75 euro is one day's work in a job. It's a moot point for the majority of cancer patients who are physically incapable of working.

    40% of job-seekers allowance is a MASSIVE chunk.

    Perspective - you're a cancer patient in the sticks who can't work and has to drive 2 hours to St. Vincents or St. Luke's in Dublin paying petrol, tolls and parking in doing so which you can't claim back. Except you're high on morphine-based painkillers so you can't drive, so your spouse, sibling, child, friend, neighbour has to take a day off to drive you there and back.

    That 40% of your jobseekers allowance suddenly becomes 50 or 60 percent. Then you have to drop 127 euro to the chemist for the prescription you got when you saw the oncologist. Oops. There we go - jobseekers allowance gone. I guess it's lucky your appetite is the first thing to go during Chemo because you won't be eating fúck all with the money you might have left.

    Given the cost of these treatments runs into hundreds of thousands it's a total slap in the face to THE most vulnerable people in society to shake them down for 75 quid at the time when they are least likely to be able to afford it.

    Charge the 75, but bill them and if/when they recover. Work a payment plan out when the patient can return to work or can spare more of their dole and have some chance of paying it off. Not unreasonable.

    Use your medical card.


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    #51
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    CJC999 wrote: »

    And it generally wasn't paid so now they ask in advance. I don't see the problem, your being provided with a very expensive treatment and asked to pay a nominal amount in advance. If I had cancer the €75 fee would be the least of my worries.

    Again if you have the 75 it's the least of your worries. If not it's a huge worry. A life threathening worry.


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    #52
    mitosis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    The same way they did until a month ago, when they suddenly changed how they bill.

    Except it has become apparent that once they are treated people are no longer inspired to pay. The patients themselves are to blame for the action taken by HSE in this case.


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    #53
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    ShiverinEskimo wrote: »
    Some people do need perspective alright - people like you.

    All well and good saying 75 euro is one day's work in a job. It's a moot point for the majority of cancer patients who are physically incapable of working.

    40% of job-seekers allowance is a MASSIVE chunk.

    Perspective - you're a cancer patient in the sticks who can't work and has to drive 2 hours to St. Vincents or St. Luke's in Dublin paying petrol, tolls and parking in doing so which you can't claim back. Except you're high on morphine-based painkillers so you can't drive, so your spouse, sibling, child, friend, neighbour has to take a day off to drive you there and back.

    That 40% of your jobseekers allowance suddenly becomes 50 or 60 percent. Then you have to drop 127 euro to the chemist for the prescription you got when you saw the oncologist. Oops. There we go - jobseekers allowance gone. I guess it's lucky your appetite is the first thing to go during Chemo because you won't be eating fúck all with the money you might have left.

    Given the cost of these treatments runs into hundreds of thousands it's a total slap in the face to THE most vulnerable people in society to shake them down for 75 quid at the time when they are least likely to be able to afford it.

    Charge the 75, but bill them and if/when they recover. Work a payment plan out when the patient can return to work or can spare more of their dole and have some chance of paying it off. Not unreasonable.

    Good points...except for the fact that the majority of the low income people you reference would be on the medical card, and therefore not be eligible for the charge.

    The fact is, that if people are only charged after the fact, then many people won't bother. And if the HSE goes after them for the money, then the Daily Mail et al will run headlines such as "Scandal! HSE pursues recovering cancer victim for money", and people here will be up in arms about the outrage of it all.

    Fact is, the money has to come from somewhere. And if it doesn't come from those availing of the services, then it has to come from someone else. Like carers. Or pensions. Asking relatively affluent people to pay a tiny proportion of their medical costs isn't, to my mind, a terrible thing.


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    #54
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Boombastic wrote: »
    Sure they've increments to pay, can be wasting money on those scummy sick people

    €266m top-ups are paid out to HSE staff



    Bloody sick people ruining the HSE for the rest of us

    They must be borderline psychopaths


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    #55
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Einhard wrote: »
    ...............

    Fact is, the money has to come from somewhere. And if it doesn't come from those availing of the services, then it has to come from someone else. Like carers. Or pensions. Asking relatively affluent people to pay a tiny proportion of their medical costs isn't, to my mind, a terrible thing.


    Or cuts to wages, or increment freezes, or...


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    #56
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    ShiverinEskimo wrote: »
    It would be your only worry if you didn't have €75.

    If you have cancer and are unable to work you will get sick benefit.
    If your spouse / partner doesn't work you will have a medical card.

    So all of the above does not apply.

    If ones spouse does work then they are not entitled to the medical card so will have to pay the €75.
    Which as mentioned, is not unreachable for the vast majority of workers.


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    #57
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    CJC999 wrote: »
    And it generally wasn't paid so now they ask in advance. I don't see the problem, your being provided with a very expensive treatment and asked to pay a nominal amount in advance. If I had cancer the €75 fee would be the least of my worries.

    Can you link to evidence of that, my understanding is they have shot over budget and are now looking to raise cash quickly.


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    #58
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    Boombastic wrote: »
    Sure they've increments to pay, can be wasting money on those scummy sick people

    €266m top-ups are paid out to HSE staff



    Bloody sick people ruining the HSE for the rest of us

    When I see crap like this it makes me wish I was still able to claim increments, sadly I can't as I'm at the top of the league and unless I change jobs this is my wage until I retire.

    Increments are part of the job, tough if you don't like it.


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    #59
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Odysseus wrote: »
    When I see crap like this it makes me wish I was still able to claim increments, sadly I can't as I'm at the top of the league and unless I change jobs this is my wage until I retire.

    Increments are part of the job, tough if you don't like it.

    Not in a failing company, but then those in the HSE don't know much about the real world


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    #60
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    Can you link to evidence of that, my understanding is they have shot over budget and are now looking to raise cash quickly.

    Public hospitals have spent over €3.2m on debt collectors to hunt down failed patient payments in just seven years.
    Hospitals are spending almost €40,000 monthly chasing unpaid patient fees — the equivalent of €1,320 every day
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/1103/world/hospitals-spend-over-32m-to-chase-debts-212830.html


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    #61
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    snubbleste wrote: »
    Public hospitals have spent over €3.2m on debt collectors to hunt down failed patient payments in just seven years.
    Hospitals are spending almost €40,000 monthly chasing unpaid patient fees — the equivalent of €1,320 every day
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/1103/world/hospitals-spend-over-32m-to-chase-debts-212830.html


    Thats how much thy are paying to track down the debt,

    The vast majority of the 2011-2012 payouts — €740,000 — went to just three debt collection firms.

    These are LCMS Legal, Management & Credit (€360,288), Intrum Justitia (€263,940), and Debitask (€114,744), while €76,896 was paid to smaller firms.

    The Irish Examiner revealed last year hospitals had spent €2.4m between 2005 and Dec 2010 in a bid to track down €266m.

    The non-paid money related to private and road traffic accident fees (€221m), other outstanding patient fees (€28m), emergency department charges (€13m) and unsettled "miscellaneous" costs (€4m).





    €266 million, they were trying to track down, which coincidentally is the same amount they paid out in increments


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