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Will the budget give us what we deserve?

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24

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    #32
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

    The people have power. We just don't use it.

    So if everyone protests and nothing is cut, how do we pay for stuff?

    Stuff like the massive deficit, not the banks, bondholders or any other rabble rabble stuff. The day to day running of the country that is costing more than what is brought in.


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    #33
    BensonSlide
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 422 ✭✭BensonSlide


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    So wealthy pensioners kept their pensions, meaning deeper cuts had to made to other services. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    Of course, we could forget about this ruinous spending of money we don't have, and allow the next couple of generations to deal with it instead.

    Let's party like it's 2006!


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    #34
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

    The people have power. We just don't use it.

    The pensioners have power because pensioners vote in large numbers. The govt wouldn't take one bit of notice of a student protest. They don't bother voting en masse and in a few years the most of them will have left the country anyway.


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    #35
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    I think people are protesting the wrong thing.

    We should be protesting corruption, abuse, and waste in the government. We should be fighting against *that*.

    Protesting against the budget is kind of missing the point. You can't keep spending money you don't have.


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    #36
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    So you are persisting with the fiction that the bank bailouts are the problem, rather than the current account deficit?

    You are either being dishonest or are very badly informed.

    Are you saying that the bank bailout is not a problem and that it does not affect the current account deficit?
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    So if everyone protests and nothing is cut, how do we pay for stuff?

    Stuff like the massive deficit, not the banks, bondholders or any other rabble rabble stuff. The day to day running of the country that is costing more than what is brought in.

    And debt servicing, including debts due to the bank bailout is contributing to this.

    The bank bailout is not the only problem and we continue to spend more than we earn, but it is part of the problem.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #37
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    The pensioners have power because pensioners vote in large numbers. The govt wouldn't take one bit of notice of a student protest. They don't bother voting en masse and in a few years the most of them will have left the country anyway.

    Students are protesting at UCD - I'm not sure if it's today or not.


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    #38
    Walt Jabsco
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Walt Jabsco


    There is a national protest (before the Budget) organised in Dublin on Sat the 24th of November, meeting at Parnell Square at 1pm. It is organised by the Dublin Council of Trade Unions, Siptu (believe it or not), The National Campaign against the Household/Septic Tank Charge and ordinary Joe Soaps like myself who march under no banners. Everybody who can should go and stand and be counted instead of hiding behind a keyboard and giving out. I for one will be there with my mates. Will You?


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    #39
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Are you saying that the bank bailout is not a problem and that it does not affect the current account deficit?
    The bailouts are history - a sunk cost. There's no point in crying about it now. Even if we never bailed out the banks, we'd have to cut about €10 billion from current spending (the bailouts cost just over €60 billion, funding that at 5% interest would cost €3 billion P.A.). If we get the ECB to take the Anglo promissory notes off our hands, that will be halved at a stroke.

    The bailouts did not help, but the overwhelming majority of the problem is overspending on social welfare, civil service salaries etc. etc.


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    #40
    BensonSlide
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 422 ✭✭BensonSlide


    Walt Jabsco wrote: »
    There is a national protest (before the Budget) organised in Dublin on Sat the 24th of November, meeting at Parnell Square at 1pm. It is organised by the Dublin Council of Trade Unions, Siptu (believe it or not), The National Campaign against the Household/Septic Tank Charge and ordinary Joe Soaps like myself who march under no banners. Everybody who can should go and stand and be counted instead of hiding behind a keyboard and giving out. I for one will be there with my mates. Will You?


    Will there be detailed and costed alternatives to the Government's plans made available on the day?


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    #41
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    SafeSurfer wrote: »

    The bank bailout is not the only problem and we continue to spend more than we earn, but it is part of the problem.

    So austerity is needed is what your saying.


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    #42
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    The bailouts are history - a sunk cost. There's no point in crying about it now. Even if we never bailed out the banks, we'd have to cut about €10 billion from current spending (the bailouts cost just over €60 billion, funding that at 5% interest would cost €3 billion P.A.). If we get the ECB to take the Anglo promissory notes off our hands, that will be halved at a stroke.

    The bailouts did not help, but the overwhelming majority of the problem is overspending on social welfare, civil service salaries etc. etc.

    The bank bailout will cost over €64 billion.So a third of the annual €10 billion tax increases and spending cuts are as a result of the bank bailout.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #43
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    The bank bailout will cost over €64 billion.So a third of the annual €10 billion tax increases and spending cuts are as a result of the bank bailout.

    So pretend that 3rd doesn't exist. How do we pay for the other 2/3rds without cuts?


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    #44
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    So austerity is needed is what your saying.

    We cannot continue spending more than we earn. How we go about bridging that gap is down to political choices. One way money could have been raised would have been the introduction of a financial transaction tax, super levies on pensions, wealth tax over a million euro, the universal social charge being applied to corporate profits etc.

    Austerity does not have to mean that home help for disabled citizens is withdrawn.

    How the books are balanced is a political choice. Political power comes from the people. The people must articulate what choices we wish our politicians to make.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #45
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    The bank bailout will cost over €64 billion.So a third of the annual €10 billion tax increases and spending cuts are as a result of the bank bailout.
    Unless we get the famous deal on the Anglo debt as expected, in which case it will be more like a sixth of it.

    So where does the rest of the money come from? And how does complaining about spent money further this?


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    #46
    wicorthered
    Registered Users Posts: 713 ✭✭✭wicorthered


    I'm no expert on international finances or anything like that. I get all my info from the media and listening to the like of David McWilliam. So maybe I'm wrong in with I think but here it is.

    To me it seems Europe dictates Irish financial policy. Telling the government to get the deficit down to a certain % by a certain date, making the government bail out anglo, etc.

    I think when the Irish government deal with Europe, they go into these meetings submissive and ready to do what they're told. They can do this because there is no backlash at home. They know the Irish people will shrug and move on. So they will do what's easier for them. Cutting SW is easier for them than having Merkel angry at them!!

    Maybe if the Noonan and Co knew that by accepting unfavourable EU conditions, E.g no bank deal, they'd be creating a strong public reaction, e.g work stoppages and demos, maybe they'd be tougher in their negotiations and fight to get Ireland better terms, leading to less harsh budgets.

    A lot of people seem completely against any form of protest, are these people happy with how Ireland is run?!


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    #47
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    BensonSlide wrote: »
    Will there be detailed and costed alternatives to the Government's plans made available on the day?

    I don't understand why people argue that those opposed to the current austerity must propose an alternative or stay silent.

    The government have all the resources of the state, highly paid advisors, consultants, civil servants etc to offer alternatives themselves. All we are being offered at the moment is one choice.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #48
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    We cannot continue spending more than we earn. How we go about bridging that gap is down to political choices. One way money could have been raised would have been the introduction of a financial transaction tax, super levies on pensions, wealth tax over a million euro, the universal social charge being applied to corporate profits etc.

    Austerity does not have to mean that home help for disabled citizens is withdrawn.

    How the books are balanced is a political choice. Political power comes from the people. The people must articulate what choices we wish our politicians to make.
    At least you are suggesting alternatives, but I'd suggest chasing the wealthy out of the country and taxing jobs would be even more disastrous than the current course as we'd eventually have to cut all those things anyway due to the blasted wilderness that the economy would become.


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    #49
    Walt Jabsco
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Walt Jabsco


    BensonSlide wrote: »
    Will there be detailed and costed alternatives to the Government's plans made available on the day?
    I don't know, why don't you come along and find out. At least people are trying to do something about this mess.


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    #50
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I don't understand why people argue that those opposed to the current austerity must propose an alternative or stay silent.
    .

    Surely if your going to oppose something you have you own views on the way it should work?


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    #51
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    wicorthered wrote: »
    I'm no expert on international finances or anything like that. I get all my info from the media and listening to the like of David McWilliam. So maybe I'm wrong in with I think but here it is.

    To me it seems Europe dictates Irish financial policy. Telling the government to get the deficit down to a certain % by a certain date, making the government bail out anglo, etc.

    I think when the Irish government deal with Europe, they go into these meetings submissive and ready to do what they're told. They can do this because there is no backlash at home. They know the Irish people will shrug and move on. So they will do what's easier for them. Cutting SW is easier for them than having Merkel angry at them!!

    Maybe if the Noonan and Co knew that by accepting unfavourable EU conditions, E.g no bank deal, they'd be creating a strong public reaction, e.g work stoppages and demos, maybe they'd be tougher in their negotiations and fight to get Ireland better terms, leading to less harsh budgets.

    A lot of people seem completely against any form of protest, are these people happy with how Ireland is run?!
    Do you think Greece are doing better than us? No shortage of protests and indeed deaths over there.


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    #52
    Nippledragon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 154 ✭✭Nippledragon


    Bertie and co should have their pensions removed and be held accountable along with those responsible for screwing the average Joe over (Priory hall etc).

    Government ministers should have a large paycut, their wages take the piss.

    Higher tax on the wealthy.

    Social welfare is being abused to the hilt. I know of tradesmen who are on the dole but working for cash in hand, they have been reported. They really piss me off. One of them is on holidays in the states at the mo. Lots of them wont do a weeks work when offered to them unless its cash in hand and more than the dole. Cúnts of the highest order.
    The hard working Irish people from years gone by will be spinning in their graves...

    This budget will be tough...


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    #53
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I don't understand why people argue that those opposed to the current austerity must propose an alternative or stay silent.

    The government have all the resources of the state, highly paid advisors, consultants, civil servants etc to offer alternatives themselves. All we are being offered at the moment is one choice.
    They must propose an alternative to demonstrate than an alternative exists and to demonstrate that it is better than the current course of action.

    Basic common sense, in other words.


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    #54
    BensonSlide
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 422 ✭✭BensonSlide


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I don't understand why people argue that those opposed to the current austerity must propose an alternative or stay silent.

    The government have all the resources of the state, highly paid advisors, consultants, civil servants etc to offer alternatives themselves. All we are being offered at the moment is one choice.

    And by that rational, we must assume that the politicians in tandem with their highly-paid consultants and civil servants have concluded that the road we travel down at the moment is the only one that we can be on.

    Do you really think the government want to raise taxes and cut services if they had an alternative? We have no money. We got some emergency money if we promised to change things so we can pay back that money in time. If we don't change then we don't get any more money. And then the shít really hits the pan.


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    #55
    wicorthered
    Registered Users Posts: 713 ✭✭✭wicorthered


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Do you think Greece are doing better than us? No shortage of protests and indeed deaths over there.

    No Greece aren't doing better than us, they were in a much deeper hole though.

    Maybe they'd have faced in bigger cuts if not for protests?

    Austerity isn't exactly working for them, is it?! Just like it's not working for Spain or Portugal. Maybe we'll get lucky and be the exception!!


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    #56
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    wicorthered wrote: »
    Austerity isn't exactly working for them, is it?! Just like it's not working for Spain or Portugal. Maybe we'll get lucky and be the exception!!
    How do you mean, 'it isn't working'? :confused:

    Austerity is a consequence of overspending (and indeed outright fraud in Greece's case). It's a matter of basic economic gravity - if you borrow money, you must pay it back. Greece are having to cut back spending to pay back (some) of what they borrowed.

    To say that 'austerity isn't working' due to unpleasant consequences is like saying that 'gravity isn't working' as you fall off a cliff.


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    #57
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Unless we get the famous deal on the Anglo debt as expected, in which case it will be more like a sixth of it.

    So where does the rest of the money come from? And how does complaining about spent money further this?

    The Anglo promissory notes will cost us €3 billion a year for 15 years.

    By complaining about the money spent on the bank bailout maybe it will stop the madness of continuing to spend €3 billion a year on the Anglo notes.

    "Whats the point of complaining"? - I really don't understand this argument. For example, whats the point in complaining that the government acted unconstitutionally in the referendum? Its to prevent them from doing it again.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #58
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    They must propose an alternative to demonstrate than an alternative exists and to demonstrate that it is better than the current course of action.

    Basic common sense, in other words.

    What nonsense. The very act of protesting is so politicians come up with an alternative.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #59
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    BensonSlide wrote: »
    And by that rational, we must assume that the politicians in tandem with their highly-paid consultants and civil servants have concluded that the road we travel down at the moment is the only one that we can be on.

    Are you for real? By your rational you assume that governments and civil servants cannot get it wrong.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #60
    wicorthered
    Registered Users Posts: 713 ✭✭✭wicorthered


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    How do you mean, 'it isn't working'? :confused:

    Austerity is a consequence of overspending (and indeed outright fraud in Greece's case). It's a matter of basic economic gravity - if you borrow money, you must pay it back. Greece are having to cut back spending to pay back (some) of what they borrowed.

    To say that 'austerity isn't working' due to unpleasant consequences is like saying that 'gravity isn't working' as you fall off a cliff.

    Well aren't all these cut backs over there meant to get the economy back on track? It seems like every time they announce a raft of cuts, their economy sinks further!

    Like I said I'm no expert but surely there's a different approach.

    You seem to be of the opinion that what happen in the banks has happened, we should forget it, and move on. Yet Ireland and Greece should be made to continue to suffer for previous bad management?!


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    #61
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Walt Jabsco wrote: »
    There is a national protest (before the Budget) organised in Dublin on Sat the 24th of November, meeting at Parnell Square at 1pm. It is organised by the Dublin Council of Trade Unions, Siptu (believe it or not), The National Campaign against the Household/Septic Tank Charge and ordinary Joe Soaps like myself who march under no banners. Everybody who can should go and stand and be counted instead of hiding behind a keyboard and giving out. I for one will be there with my mates. Will You?

    Ironic as I think we should be protesting outside Siptu's offices about the CPA.


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