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Stephen Donnelly, on how the ECB actually owes Ireland €64 billion!

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124

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    #92
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    spank_inferno wrote: »
    Fred fails to notice that it was largely German pension fund money that took a gamble on the Irish Banks & their associated property gambles.

    .

    Well that's new one on me, where did you read this?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #93
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    spank_inferno wrote: »
    Fred fails to notice that it was largely German pension fund money that took a gamble on the Irish Banks & their associated property gambles.

    It all came crashing down.

    Rather than face the wrath of a many a folk with smaller pension pots, The EU (And America) ordered the Irish Gov to nationalise the debts of the banks and repay all those who placed losing bets on those same banks.

    I don't see how or why it is relevant tbh.


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    #94
    Dockington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭Dockington


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I don't see how or why it is relevant tbh.

    Are you actually serious. If what the poster has stated is true how can it not be relevant. Whether you agree with Donnelly's points or not you have to see how this is relevant to the debate. That is thread over for me, cant take any more stupidity.:mad:


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    #95
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Dockington wrote: »
    Are you actually serious. If what the poster has stated is true how can it not be relevant. Whether you agree with Donnelly's points or not you have to see how this is relevant to the debate. That is thread over for me, cant take any more stupidity.:mad:

    Well, for starters, lets try and get the poster to back up their statement, because I would question the truth behind it.

    secondly, I don't see how it is relevant who or where these mystical bond holders are. Why should German pensioners take a hit because of an incompetent Irish government?


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    #96
    Shryke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,199 ✭✭✭Shryke


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Well, for starters, lets try and get the poster to back up their statement, because I would question the truth behind it.

    secondly, I don't see how it is relevant who or where these mystical bond holders are. Why should German pensioners take a hit because of an incompetent Irish government?

    There is no hope for this one.


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    #97
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Shryke wrote: »
    There is no hope for this one.

    sorry.

    boo hoo, feel sorry for us, no one else in the world is going through what we are. we had nothing to do with it and the nasty europeans forced us to do it.

    the amount of self pitying and outright refusal to man up and accept responsibilities in this thread is outstanding.:rolleyes:


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    #98
    jd1983
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭jd1983


    Why should German pensioners take a hit because of an incompetent Irish government?

    Why should Irish taxpayers take the hit for Germans investing their money with incompetent money managers that invested in toxic banks.


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    #99
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    jd1983 wrote: »
    Why should Irish taxpayers take the hit for Germans investing their money with incompetent money managers that invested in toxic banks.

    Because it was (broadly speaking) Irish tax payers that pissed the money away.


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    #100
    jd1983
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭jd1983


    boo hoo, feel sorry for us, no one else in the world is going through what we are.

    Yes, other countries are having to endure austerity measures and if we did not have to re-pay bank debt we would still have to endure austerity measures like everyone else. However what's different between us and other countries is the size of our debt to GDP ratio. This is debt that is being lumped onto the next few generations of Irish people, who had absolutely nothing to with bank debt.
    In fact Irish people are handling austerity measures much better that other countries, you only have to look at any news articles coming out of Spain/Greece over the last few years to realize this. So you're statement above just comes across as incredibly juvenile and bitter.


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    #101
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Because it was (broadly speaking) Irish tax payers that pissed the money away.

    Hang on you actually agree with the bank guarantee ??

    Sweet jesus.


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    #102
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Scioch wrote: »
    Hang on you actually agree with the bank guarantee ??

    Sweet jesus.

    no, absolutely not. The bank guarantee, especially the one for Anglo, was the biggest **** up of the lot. Anglo should have been allowed to fail. the only reason it wan't was because of the golden circle and Fianna Fail. All this talk of the ECB ordering the bail out is bollocks and a complete distraction.

    A corrupt and incompetant government guaranteed the banks to look after their mates.

    letting AIB and BoI fail would have caused a lot of domestic problems, but anglo was largely a commercial bank and letting that fail wouldn't have hurt too many little people.

    BUT, it was bailed out and it was an Irish government that did it. It is an irish issue that Ireland needs to sort out.

    The best way to start sorting it out is a complete change to the political classes that run this country.


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    #103
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Because it was (broadly speaking) Irish tax payers that pissed the money away.

    No one pissed money away. Banks over lent based on faulty accounting due to a technical flaw in EU regulation.

    Banks failed all over Europe even in Germany...but it was worse here because of the boom..everyone wanted a piece.and some fault of a poor Irish regulator true but not entirely.


    And Irish banks had a rep for lending to people who were risky ..the ECB lent to people who were risky...


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    #104
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    jd1983 wrote: »
    Yes, other countries are having to endure austerity measures and if we did not have to re-pay bank debt we would still have to endure austerity measures like everyone else. However what's different between us and other countries is the size of our debt to GDP ratio. This is debt that is being lumped onto the next few generations of Irish people, who had absolutely nothing to with bank debt.
    In fact Irish people are handling austerity measures much better that other countries, you only have to look at any news articles coming out of Spain/Greece over the last few years to realize this. So you're statement above just comes across as incredibly juvenile and bitter.

    flippant, not juvenile and not bitter (although I have as much right to be bitter as the next person).


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    #105
    Jev/N
    Registered Users Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭Jev/N


    Scioch wrote: »
    Hang on you actually agree with the bank guarantee ??

    Sweet jesus.

    So you'd disagree with guaranteeing personal deposits and accounts in the consumer banks?


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    #106
    Shryke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,199 ✭✭✭Shryke


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Shryke wrote: »
    There is no hope for this one.

    sorry.

    boo hoo, feel sorry for us, no one else in the world is going through what we are. we had nothing to do with it and the nasty europeans forced us to do it.

    the amount of self pitying and outright refusal to man up and accept responsibilities in this thread is outstanding.:rolleyes:

    You got all of that from my post? No? Just putting words in my mouth then, yes? I thought so. What's that? No i'm fine for tea thanks.


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    #107
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    No one pissed money away. Banks over lent based on faulty accounting due to a technical flaw in EU regulation.

    Banks failed all over Europe even in Germany...but it was worse here because of the boom..everyone wanted a piece.and some fault of a poor Irish regulator true but not entirely.


    And Irish banks had a rep for lending to people who were risky ..the ECB lent to people who were risky...

    Pissed away may be a bit flippant, but lets face it, how many Land Rovers did people put on their mortgage? that's pretty close to pissing money away in my book.

    but come on, banks were lending people €20m to buy a house in Ballsbridge that was being bought purely as a penis extension (yes Mr mcFeeley, I am looking at you). These people were like Harry Enfield characters
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHo2pXO_XAI


    And now these gaffs are being repossessed and are worth 10% of that so you and i are paying for it. but as far as i'm concerned, it's our mess and the buck stops with us.

    My anger though is with these guys, not some pensioner in Munich


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    #108
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    no, absolutely not. The bank guarantee, especially the one for Anglo, was the biggest **** up of the lot. Anglo should have been allowed to fail. the only reason it wan't was because of the golden circle and Fianna Fail. All this talk of the ECB ordering the bail out is bollocks and a complete distraction.

    A corrupt and incompetant government guaranteed the banks to look after their mates.

    letting AIB and BoI fail would have caused a lot of domestic problems, but anglo was largely a commercial bank and letting that fail wouldn't have hurt too many little people.

    BUT, it was bailed out and it was an Irish government that did it. It is an irish issue that Ireland needs to sort out.

    The best way to start sorting it out is a complete change to the political classes that run this country.

    But the best way for the Irish government to have sorted it out would have been firstly to let the banks collapse (investors lose everything) or even now to inflict haircuts on the bondholders and make it as cheap as possible. Why are you so concerned about foreign investors who's investment went sour when they shouldnt ever have been paid back in full ?

    You are arguing in this thread that its our debt, our problem and foreign bondholders shouldnt lose on their failed investment.


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    #109
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    Jev/N wrote: »
    So you'd disagree with guaranteeing personal deposits and accounts in the consumer banks?

    No. I disagree with he blanket guarantee and the continued repayment in full to bondholders.

    Personal accounts upto a certain amount should have been guaranteed and the banks allowed to collapse.


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    #110
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    Jev/N wrote: »
    So you'd disagree with guaranteeing personal deposits and accounts in the consumer banks?

    That is not what the bank garantee did at all.


    And a garantee was not needed to protect those accounts.

    The banks had been making bad loans and no recognising losses on their books all over Europe for years everywhere france germany included.

    What should have happened was forcing the banks to recognise those losses then an immediate recapitalization and protection on some accounts.

    The garantee it has been ascertained actually prolonged the crisis. As banks had no incentive to correct their accounting and more incentive to keep making dirty audits Europe wide and push money into Irish banks simply to protect credit ratings etc.

    It is recognized that the garantee was the worst thing they could have done and in fact made the whole thing much worse.

    It also made it much more difficult to recognize what the actualy problem was for months.

    It was a fiasco...far beyond what it did to the Irish Situation...it actually encouraged foreign invstors to pour money into insolvent banks...which is very dangerous.

    It was the dumbest fianancial plan they could have come up with.


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    #111
    Jev/N
    Registered Users Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭Jev/N


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    That is not what the bank garantee did at all.

    I understand that. Obviously much of the guarantee, and the glaringly obvious Anglo, was a shambles from the outset. I was just seeing whether the poster agreed with some extent of a guarantee or protection, as an all out insolvency of the banks could have been carnage.


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    #112
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBjxmsoIFKs


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    #113
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,096 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    for being the fall guys. you think it was just our banking system that was being poor regulated? we were the gangrenous limb hacked off to save the continent. except we're not a gangrenous limb - we're ****ing people, a nation, whose innocent children have been lumbered with billions in debt created by professional gamblers from all over the world, ie: bondholders.

    You see it aint that simple.
    Yes we took a hit and it was to stop the contagion spreading.
    It eventually has spread to other countries, but it was much slower and the big guys managed to kick the can down the road.

    But here is a little interesting thing to note.
    Hypo Real Estate bank had to be bailed out to the tune of over 100 billion.
    Hypo Real Estate bank was in trouble because it's Depfa subsidiary HQed in the IFSC had run up collosal debts.
    Depfa was regulated by guess hwo the Irish Central Bank/Financial Regulator.
    AFAIK the Germans had voiced their disaproval of how banks in the IFSC were not regulated.

    Now should we have paid for the debts run up by Depfa or should the German taxpayers ?

    BTW you are correct a lot of the world banks were very poorly regulated.
    Iceland, the US, Uk, Spain, etc come to mind.
    But ours were fooking especially bad.
    Ghandee wrote: »
    Which is exactly what lots of people (including myself) have been arguing about with the govts plans to introduce a property tax.

    Just because 'they all have one' doesn't mean we need one.

    As others have pointed out, bailout of not, we would have to find a more stable continous tax base and property is it.
    BTW with or without a bailout we would have had to cut spending.
    For some reason I don't think half the people forever sqawking about bondholders ever quiet get this salient point.

    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    German, British and French tax payers weren't given an option on the bank bail out, so why should they foot the bill.

    The Irish property bubble made billions disappear. Someone, somewhere has to cough for it and I'm afraid we are guilty by association.

    But the problem is the billions didn't really disappear ?
    It may have disappeared from our banks debtors because the loans were securitised primarily on property which is now worth jack sh** in comparison to the loans, but there has been no write off of the loans that our banks took out.
    The buck stops with the Irish taxpayers who have made good the debts of everyone else.
    Scioch wrote: »
    Exactly, we all knew what was happening. We all knew the state was unnecessarily paying out the bonds to prop up the European banking sector and nobody could do anything about it.

    Do you know who held a lot of the bonds ?
    I would guess a lot of the bonds owed were to non German or Euro zone banks or financial institutions.
    Remember mr chelsea and his INBS bonds ?

    Claiming we bailed out German banks by paying back their bonds is simplistic.
    Our guarantee stopped the contagion of fear of bank collapse from spreading.
    If the primary banks in a eurozone country had all collapsed, the euro would have gone down the swany.
    I believe we helped save the euro, but the mess in our own banks is our own bloody fault, no one elses.
    We as a state are not fooking blameless in all this mess.
    Scioch wrote: »
    Main reason being that Labour (who were elected to oppose the continued payment to bondholers) sold out their voters and bent knee to FG/FF policy on it to continue paying.

    FG and Labour and FF before them bled the country dry to prop up Europe. And yet most people ignore this in favour of attacking welfare recipients as the problem.

    Can you get this through your bloody head.
    Even without paying a fooking penny or cent to bond holders, our fooking expenditure outweighted our revenue by 20 odd billion.
    There was no way we could have continued borrowing to fund that and cuts would have to be made anyway.

    The guarantee led to the bailout, because we had stuffed even more debt on top of the soverign debt and no one would lend to us.
    The problem with the guarantee and subsequent bailout is that we have created a debt mountain we will probably not get out from under.
    But it is fooking moronic to equate non payment of bondholders to no cuts necessary.
    spank_inferno wrote: »
    Fred fails to notice that it was largely German pension fund money that took a gamble on the Irish Banks & their associated property gambles.

    Can you prove this statement please ?
    jd1983 wrote: »
    Why should Irish taxpayers take the hit for Germans investing their money with incompetent money managers that invested in toxic banks.

    See first part of this post above.
    The German taxpayers took a major hit for a bank that was operating out of our country under our regulators control.
    Should we have paid for Depfa ?

    This whole mess is not some simplistic us and them.


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    #114
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    What should have happened was forcing the banks to recognise those losses then an immediate recapitalization and protection on some accounts.

    Would it have been legally possible to guarantee Mammy AJs €150K lifesavings, whilst telling other creditors (foreign institutions, bond holders etc) to gtfo?
    It sounds good but my instinct would be that it wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny.


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    #115
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    Would it have been legally possible to guarantee Mammy AJs €150K lifesavings, whilst telling other creditors (foreign institutions, bond holders etc) to gtfo?
    It sounds good but my instinct would be that it wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny.

    Yes, it would. Guarantee deposits up to a certain level, tell the bondholders they are taking a haircut.


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    #116
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    jmayo wrote: »
    Claiming we bailed out German banks by paying back their bonds is simplistic.
    Our guarantee stopped the contagion of fear of bank collapse from spreading.
    If the primary banks in a eurozone country had all collapsed, the euro would have gone down the swany.
    I believe we helped save the euro, but the mess in our own banks is our own bloody fault, no one elses.
    We as a state are not fooking blameless in all this mess.

    Simplistic ? The pressure from the ECB to pay back in full all bonds was to avoid contagion spreading throughout Europe. This is a fact. You agree that we prevented that and propped up the Euro. That is what I'm referring to by saying we bailed out other European banks because that is what we did.

    OUR banks ? I didnt own any banks. Nobody I know owned any banks. The banks were private institutions which engaged in reckless lending. Those bondholders were also engaged in reckless lending. All european banks were engaged in this. The Irish people should not be liable for a problem created by a private banking industry. The Irish state has a responsibility to its people not to cover financial losses in the banking industry.

    Can you get this through your bloody head.
    Even without paying a fooking penny or cent to bond holders, our fooking expenditure outweighted our revenue by 20 odd billion.
    There was no way we could have continued borrowing to fund that and cuts would have to be made anyway.

    The guarantee led to the bailout, because we had stuffed even more debt on top of the soverign debt and no one would lend to us.
    The problem with the guarantee and subsequent bailout is that we have created a debt mountain we will probably not get out from under.
    But it is fooking moronic to equate non payment of bondholders to no cuts necessary.

    And who's equating non payment of bondholders to no cuts necessary ??

    Maybe you should try reading a post properly before making moronic statements. I mentioned nothing about cuts being unnecessary.


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    #117
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    jmayo wrote: »
    See first part of this post above.
    The German taxpayers took a major hit for a bank that was operating out of our country under our regulators control.
    Should we have paid for Depfa ?

    This whole mess is not some simplistic us and them.

    I believe ACCBank and Ulsterbank can be added to that list as well.


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    #118
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Scioch wrote: »
    OUR banks ? I didnt own any banks. Nobody I know owned any banks. The banks were private institutions which engaged in reckless lending. Those bondholders were also engaged in reckless lending. All european banks were engaged in this. The Irish people should not be liable for a problem created by a private banking industry. The Irish state has a responsibility to its people not to cover financial losses in the banking industry.

    That's the problem though, you do now own a bank. We all do thanks to the bail out.

    And if you have a credit union account, or a pension, you are more than likely a bond holder as well.


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    #119
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,096 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Scioch wrote: »
    Simplistic ? The pressure from the ECB to pay back in full all bonds was to avoid contagion spreading throughout Europe. This is a fact. You agree that we prevented that and propped up the Euro.

    It is not just bonds to other banks.
    The banks also owed a lot of money to the ECB itself.

    Oh and supposedly our best friend in all of this was the big bad dreadful IMF who had wanted to give a haircut to bondholders, but it wasn't just EU/ECB pressure, it appears the US treasury secretary demanded that bonds be paid in full.

    Now why would he demand such a thing unless US entities had exposure to Irish bonds ????

    True the EU/ECB looks like being the primary ones that demanded we save the banks and demanded we take a bailout when we did.
    Scioch wrote: »
    That is what I'm referring to by saying we bailed out other European banks because that is what we did.

    OUR banks ? I didnt own any banks. Nobody I know owned any banks. The banks were private institutions which engaged in reckless lending. Those bondholders were also engaged in reckless lending. All european banks were engaged in this.

    Ok when I said OUR in this case I meant this state's indigenous banks that were meant to be controlled by our so called government and the regulatory authorities of this state.
    FFS it wasn't just European banks that were reckless and it wasn't all of them either.
    Of course understanding that would mean you don't trott out the old tried and tested tiresome rhethoric.
    Scioch wrote: »
    The Irish people should not be liable for a problem created by a private banking industry. The Irish state has a responsibility to its people not to cover financial losses in the banking industry.

    That should be the way, but sadly we were made responsible for it.
    I don't see how you making Rolf, Mika and Hans now responsible for Irish bank debt is going to go down in Holland, Finland and Germany ?
    Scioch wrote: »
    And who's equating non payment of bondholders to no cuts necessary ??

    That is the standard line.
    Why should we cut child benefit, carers allowance, etc or bring in property tax when we are paying bondhodlers is the common cry heard both around here and indeed in the Dáil.


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    #120
    preddy
    Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭preddy


    jmayo wrote: »
    Even without paying a fooking penny or cent to bond holders, our fooking expenditure outweighted our revenue by 20 odd billion.

    What was our over expenditure leading up to this "20 odd Billion" deficit ?

    You can't say the banking crisis has had nothing to do with our revenue situation at all.


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    #121
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Apologists for the bailout mention the deficit all the time. What causes alarm for lenders is a high deficit, not under control, and a debt ratio which is higher than 100%. Both. The deficit is coming down, were the bank bailout removed from the debt-GDP ratio we would have a lower debt than the UK, and a decelerating deficit. The UK can borrow, we cannot. the UK deficit is accelerating.
    Ok when I said OUR in this case I meant this state's indigenous banks that were meant to be controlled by our so called government and the regulatory authorities of this state.
    FFS it wasn't just European banks that were reckless and it wasn't all of them either.
    Of course understanding that would mean you don't trott out the old tried and tested tiresome rhetoric.

    Regulation in a currency union should stay at the top. Were the Fed to cause a boom in California by keeping interest too low - but perfect for the East Coast - most people would not blame the California Central Bank, in fact there would be little they could do with the tsunami of money flowing from the East looking for better returns.


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