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Finally theres a move for equality in education!

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  • 20-08-2012 10:54pm
    #1
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭


    As most of you will have seen Cao points have raised massively this in part is because of the extra points afforded to maths. This has prompted Trinity College Dublin's Dr Patrick Geoghegan to announce the new way Trinity is looking at admissions to Trinity. For years Patrick Geoghegan has maintained that the current system puts the wrong student in the wrong course and that the points system is currently unfair. Coming for the students sitting the leaving cert in 2014 as well as being assessed on their leaving cert results they will also have to submit personal statements regarding their chosen course.


    For me the best to come out of this is the consideration of the context of the student. In Patrick Geoghegan’s own words “If a student who got four hundred and fifty points, where they were top of their class and the school didn’t have a tradition of sending people to college. Then that would be a greater more significant achievement than a student from an elite fee paying school who got over 500 points.” The playing field will hopefully be well and truly evened.


    To me this is an absolutely brilliant move. It’s how they admit students in other universities around the world. I’m a UCD student not a Trinity one but I have nothing but respect for the way they have opened up university to all students in the past few years with access courses and other programs. It can’t be long before UCD follow suit with this admittance policy. Heres RTE's interview with Patrick Geoghegan about the new policies.



    There has been some objections to this but what does everyone else think. Should other universities pick up this?


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Comments

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    #2
    LoonyLovegood
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 6,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭LoonyLovegood


    Definitely. People will have to think about a job they want, instead of it being "Mammy said I should do primary teaching." (Something I've heard a lot)


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    #3
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,056 ✭✭✭bren2001


    Waste of time, all thats going to happen is students are going to get taken away from their studies to write some ****ty letter. Ill be honest, I didnt have a clue what I wanted to do at the end of sixth year.

    Students will still end up on the wrong courses. Waste of time!


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    #4
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    CTYIgirl wrote: »
    Definitely. People will have to think about a job they want, instead of it being "Mammy said I should do primary teaching." (Something I've heard a lot)

    And its one less thing for me to moan about which cant be a bad thing!


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    #5
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    bren2001 wrote: »
    Waste of time, all thats going to happen is students are going to get taken away from their studies to write some ****ty letter. Ill be honest, I didnt have a clue what I wanted to do at the end of sixth year.

    Students will still end up on the wrong courses. Waste of time!

    Well Im also happy that the students school and enviroment will be taken into consideration. As far as the letter goes I dont see how it would be bad for a person who wants to do science or law to explain why he should do it over someone else.


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    #6
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users Posts: 12,427 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    It's a step in the right direction but the whole education system needs to be overhauled from the bottom up. We need to change the way we teach in our schools, and we need to change the exam situation too. Students should be graded on a continuous assessment basis aswell as a final exam like the leaving cert, but without as much weight put on the final exam.
    Then the admission system into 3rd level needs to also be looked at. As was said, the points system alone is not fair. When applying, you should have to include a letter regarding your course choice and also maybe aptitude tests and interviews for the chosen course should be introduced.
    As I said though, it is a step in the right direction.


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    #7
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Dean09 wrote: »
    It's a step in the right direction but the whole education system needs to be overhauled from the bottom up. We need to change the way we teach in our schools, and we need to change the exam situation too. Students should be graded on a continuous assessment basis aswell as a final exam like the leaving cert, but without as much weight put on the final exam.
    Then the admission system into 3rd level needs to also be looked at. As was said, the points system alone is not fair. When applying, you should have to include a letter regarding your course choice and also maybe aptitude tests and interviews for the chosen course should be introduced.
    As I said though, it is a step in the right direction.

    But what trinity is doing is using their admission policy to combat the unfairness in the points system.


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    #8
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    bren2001 wrote: »
    Waste of time, all thats going to happen is students are going to get taken away from their studies to write some ****ty letter. Ill be honest, I didnt have a clue what I wanted to do at the end of sixth year.

    Students will still end up on the wrong courses. Waste of time!

    But it will weed those students down a lot. Doing nothing at all won't help and it's just an assessment which does not take long or take away time from studying.

    I see this as nothing but a good thing. If you're suited to your course, you will exel at it and that's what colleges should be looking at, getting the best results and best suited graduates by making sure it's for them.


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    #9
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,646 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Dean09 wrote: »
    It's a step in the right direction but the whole education system needs to be overhauled from the bottom up. We need to change the way we teach in our schools, and we need to change the exam situation too. Students should be graded on a continuous assessment basis aswell as a final exam like the leaving cert, but without as much weight put on the final exam.
    Then the admission system into 3rd level needs to also be looked at. As was said, the points system alone is not fair. When applying, you should have to include a letter regarding your course choice and also maybe aptitude tests and interviews for the chosen course should be introduced.
    As I said though, it is a step in the right direction.
    You won't be saying that when all these newly-admitted ruffians bra bomb your office.


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    #10
    LoonyLovegood
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 6,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭LoonyLovegood


    Applying to the UK you have to do this, it's often used to weed out candidates and it works well. No system is perfect, but I far perfer theirs.


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    #11
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,296 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    But the whole point of the CAO/CAS system was so students did not have to individually apply to each course. I remember the main pain about the UK Universities was the onerous aplications.
    Having said that I am sure the esteemed member of the faculty at Trinity knows a fair bit about the situation so I am not inclined to argue with him about it


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    #12
    Gummy Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,920 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Dean09 wrote: »
    It's a step in the right direction but the whole education system needs to be overhauled from the bottom up. We need to change the way we teach in our schools, and we need to change the exam situation too. Students should be graded on a continuous assessment basis aswell as a final exam like the leaving cert, but without as much weight put on the final exam.
    Then the admission system into 3rd level needs to also be looked at. As was said, the points system alone is not fair. When applying, you should have to include a letter regarding your course choice and also maybe aptitude tests and interviews for the chosen course should be introduced.
    As I said though, it is a step in the right direction.
    You won't be saying that when all these newly-admitted ruffians bra bomb your office.

    ROBOT HOUSE!! :mad:


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    #13
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    CTYIgirl wrote: »
    Applying to the UK you have to do this, it's often used to weed out candidates and it works well. No system is perfect, but I far perfer theirs.
    The only issue is that it puts people who don't have English as a first language or aren't particularly good at expressing themselves at a huge disadvantage. It's almost akin to putting a large points bonus on high grades in HL English.


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    #14
    Tombi!
    Registered Users Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    I'm a bit confused.

    Does this help the kids who didn't do too well with points or is it more of a "so you get 500 points, prove to me why I should choose you over the other 500"?


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    #15
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users Posts: 12,427 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    You won't be saying that when all these newly-admitted ruffians bra bomb your office.

    I, for one, welcome the removal of all bras. :pac:


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    #16
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    But the whole point of the CAO/CAS system was so students did not have to individually apply to each course. I remember the main pain about the UK Universities was the onerous aplications.
    Having said that I am sure the esteemed member of the faculty at Trinity knows a fair bit about the situation so I am not inclined to argue with him about it

    Well that system didnt take into account other advantages some students might have like grind schools ect. Its not an accurate picture of who works the hardest.


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    #17
    Larianne
    Registered Users Posts: 35,954 ✭✭✭✭Larianne


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    As far as the letter goes I dont see how it would be bad for a person who wants to do science or law to explain why he should do it over someone else.

    They use this system in the UK (and for mature student entry here).

    I think some type of continuous assessment throughout 5th and 6th year would be better with less emphasis on one big exam at the end of the year. Would take the pressure off students.

    People can just get someone else to write their personal statement for them. They'll start doing courses on how to write a perfect personal statement. :rolleyes:

    I think some students picking courses look at how much points is required for the course and don't actually look into what the course is about. "OOh, that course must be good, its 500 points to get in". I know a few people in my class hadn't a clue what the end result of the course would be, where they'd end up working. I'm pretty sure one of the girls will end up going on to do another course. Another is being 'made' complete the course by her parents. Which is sad for someone who missed out on a place on the course.

    Another way could be like the mature student entry requirements here where you have to write a personal statement, show some academic ability related to the course you want to do and, in some cases, have an interview. I don't know though how that would work with courses with large numbers, such as Arts or general science?


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    #18
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Back in the early nineties, I did my leaving cert.

    I applied to Stokes Kennedy Crowley as they were then known (KMPG) for their scholarship program.

    I got interviewed and during the interview realised I'd not got the herd mentality to work for such a company and said so, in more polite terms.

    I then got accepted to Commerce in UCD and dropped out as I was one of those people who learned by memory and never had to work for results.

    I got very good results in LC and Matric at the time.

    After dropping out, I had lots of menial jobs, then fell into IT. I've had a great career in IT, my guidance counsellor always told me I'd be a good engineer, but I fell into IT

    My point?

    At 18 you can know what you don't want. But applying more criteria than points makes a lot of sense.


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    #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I should be finished before any of them start so I'm not against this measure.


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    #20
    bleg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    Sounds like the work of a crusty old dean.


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    #21
    EchoO
    Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭EchoO


    Dean09 wrote: »
    Then the admission system into 3rd level needs to also be looked at. As was said, the points system alone is not fair. When applying, you should have to include a letter regarding your course choice and also maybe aptitude tests and interviews for the chosen course should be introduced.
    As I said though, it is a step in the right direction.

    The "it's not what you know, but who you know" approach is too prevalent in Ireland for an interview based system to work. I think the anonymity aspect of the points system is important. Aptitude tests would'nt be a bad idea though.


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    #22
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Larianne wrote: »
    I think some type of continuous assessment throughout 5th and 6th year would be better with less emphasis on one big exam at the end of the year. Would take the pressure off students.
    When I was in 6th year the people who felt the pressure around the Leaving Cert freaked out exactly the same for the orals and when Art stuff was due. Having more spread out assessment won't get such people to chill out.

    Aside from that, any changes to the system will just result in money being spent on different kinds of grinds. Giving bonus points for being poor is something that I think would be pretty ridiculous as well.


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    #23
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    I'd be disappointed to see the points system go which is highly objective, only to be replaced by something which is highly subjective.

    Try as you might, but you cannot use power and influence to get into university in Ireland currently. A few years ago in fact someone tried to buy their way into medicine by saying they would pay non-eu fees but was thrown out by the courts. Introducing a letter/interview system is opening the door for the old boys to ensure it stays an old boys club. The idea might be well intentioned but it would be roundly abused.


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    #24
    Unregistered.
    Registered Users Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭Unregistered.


    Fantastic. Somebody has the balls to implement a system to tackle students applying for courses they don't really want.


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    #25
    TheBegotten
    Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭TheBegotten


    This is a GODSEND. The course I am planing to do rose to 515 today, with no sign of declining. There's 12 places for the course, no other university in Ireland does it. I was terrified that the one of the only courses in Ireland I was passionate about would be taken up by some apatethic genius whose mammy thought that nanoscience sounded nice.


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    #26
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    EchoO wrote: »
    The "it's not what you know, but who you know" approach is too prevalent in Ireland for an interview based system to work. I think the anonymity aspect of the points system is important. Aptitude tests would'nt be a bad idea though.

    Thats a good point but I cant see it applying to the sciences or anything technical. Just because I see jummy from down the road in the pub every now and again doesnt mean I trust his ability to work in a lab.


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    #27
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,296 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well that system didnt take into account other advantages some students might have like grind schools ect. Its not an accurate picture of who works the hardest.

    It is a fair point. I think the education system here needs a serious shake up anyway. I am happy to see weightings for subjects coming back in after a 2 decade hiatus. Good to see all the people who attempted honours Maths


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    #28
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    TheBegotten wrote: »
    This is a GODSEND. The course I am planing to do rose to 515 today, with no sign of declining. There's 12 places for the course, no other university in Ireland does it. I was terrified that the one of the only courses in Ireland I was passionate about would be taken up by some apatethic genius whose mammy thought that nanoscience sounded nice.

    Delighted for you. You sound like you had your mind on this for sometime. Unfortunatly I meet plenty of the people who are under orders from mammy to do a fashionable course.


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    #29
    JohnMarston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭JohnMarston


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The only issue is that it puts people who don't have English as a first language or aren't particularly good at expressing themselves at a huge disadvantage. It's almost akin to putting a large points bonus on high grades in HL English.

    How would one be able to get the most out of 3rd level education if they cannot grasp the english language, in a country that primarily speaks english?


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    #30
    Larianne
    Registered Users Posts: 35,954 ✭✭✭✭Larianne


    Deleted User wrote: »
    When I was in 6th year the people who felt the pressure around the Leaving Cert freaked out exactly the same for the orals and when Art stuff was due. Having more spread out assessment won't get such people to chill out.

    A lot of college courses have continous assessment, why not start it in secondary school?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Aside from that, any changes to the system will just result in money being spent on different kinds of grinds. Giving bonus points for being poor is something that I think would be pretty ridiculous as well.

    I'm pretty sure there is something already in place where if you live in a disadvantage area you can have lower points to get into courses. I remember a girl in 1st year wanted to get into medicine but although she lived in a 'poor' area her Dad's job title wouldn't allow her to qualify for it. :confused:


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    #31
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users Posts: 12,427 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    bleg wrote: »
    Sounds like the work of a crusty old dean.



    :(


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