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Pussy Riot and Russia

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13

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    #62
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Lol,

    All I see here is a random attack on the left.

    By the way, I supplied polls earlier that correlated to a desire among the Russian public to either:

    A: See serious punishment (incarceration for at least a year)
    or
    B: Moderate punishment amounting to community service, a large fine et al.

    So technically a popular will has been expressed here. Maybe not our popular will, but of the Russians? You bet. If I'm honest, this case never really had much attention in Russia aside from the usual "opposition" figures deifying the girls.
    This doesn;t change the fact that two years in the gulag is very harsh (though I presume they may have priors from previous actions though don;t know)

    The Gulag system was abolished over 50 years ago.


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    #63
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #64
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Changed my post a bit, sorry about that.


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    #65
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Higher wrote: »
    If the lead singer wasn't so attractive this would have been a non-story irrespective of Putin's OTT reaction.


    I have my doubts on that.


    Two years for this is farcical, I might add.


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    #66
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    ....yet could also be seen as a convenient cover for sniping at left wing sympathies generally, using these unfortunate young women as a vehicle.


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    #67
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    The Guardian have been obsessed with the Pussy Riot trial these last few weeks. Basically all their news on Russia consists of following this one trial. They smell an opportunity to Putinbash like a shark smells blood!

    My opinion-

    Two years is too much. Way too much. Whether or not Putin twiddled his evil octopus-tentacles to get this sentence handed down, I don't know. Maybe the judges intended to impress him in some way or another? We can only guess. I doubt the women will fill their full sentence, but time will tell.

    I'm sure Putin is delighted with retaining the strong Orthodox electorate in his camp, however.


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    #68
    Goose81
    Registered Users Posts: 4,171 ✭✭✭Goose81


    Two years is too much but they are attention seeking clowns so I have no sympathy, absolutely no reason to disrespect peoples church like that.

    You just have to listen to the leaders husband on ch4 news today, new age hippies getting their comeuppance and don't like the consequences.


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    #69
    RedRightHand
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭RedRightHand


    Higher wrote: »
    If the lead singer wasn't so attractive this would have been a non-story irrespective of Putin's OTT reaction.

    Take her if you want, she scares the shiite out of me. I've seen her referred to as 'Russia's Jane Fonda', which is unfair as she's far better looking and more intelligent than Fonda. It's a pity that she couldn't apply herself to something more constructive than museum orgies and church sacrilege.


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    #70
    Kinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    RedRightHand wrote: »
    Take her if you want, she scares the shiite out of me. I've seen her referred to as 'Russia's Jane Fonda', which is unfair as she's far better looking and more intelligent than Fonda. It's a pity that she couldn't apply herself to something more constructive than museum orgies and church sacrilege.

    It's Nadezhda Tolokonnikova people are referring to here, I assume? Tbh the bit in bold makes me even more attracted to her.

    And in all seriousness, this is a disgraceful judgement, but sadly one that is very far from having no precedent in Russia or the wider world.


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    #71
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Goose81 wrote: »
    Two years is too much but they are attention seeking clowns so I have no sympathy, absolutely no reason to disrespect peoples church like that.

    You just have to listen to the leaders husband on ch4 news today, new age hippies getting their comeuppance and don't like the consequences.


    ....you see theres this thing about punishment being commensurate to the crime. Nor do I see how your labelling of the husband of one of them has any bearing on the procedings.


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    #72
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    Weird signals coming from the Orthodox Church:

    http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9740
    Moscow, August 17, Interfax - The Russian Orthodox Church has asked the Russian authorities "to show mercy within the law towards the convicted" Pussy Riot members in the hope that they will renounce a repeat of blasphemous actions, the Supreme Church Council said in a statement issued in Moscow on Friday.

    Vladimir Lukin, Human Rights Ombudsman for Russia, says:
    ...he would consider a possible appeal from the Pussy Riot members.

    And that he made clear this consideration to Putin, who "heard him".

    http://rbth.ru/articles/2012/08/16/putin_hears_ombudsman_opinion_about_pussy_riot_case_17420.html


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    #73
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    (though I presume they may have priors from previous actions though don;t know)

    Last January they protested Putin in Red Square and were arrested for unauthorized demonstration, held a couple of hours, fined and then set free.


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    #74
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Eggy Baby! wrote: »
    And that he made clear this consideration to Putin, who "heard him".

    He couldn't sound more subservient if he tried


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    #75
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    Brussels Sprout wrote: »
    He couldn't sound more subservient if he tried

    Actually, Putin said he "heard him", not Lukin.


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    #76
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    One minute Gary Kasparov is being interviewed by foregin media, the next he's being bundled into a bus by police. I wasn't a fan of what Pussy Riot did but I've nothing but admiration for people who protest on the street. Doing that in Russia is a far different thing to doing it in London or New York especially given the new draconian fining laws.


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    #77
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,669 ✭✭✭Worztron


    Brussels Sprout wrote: »
    One minute Gary Kasparov is being interviewed by foregin media, the next he's being bundled into a bus by police. I wasn't a fan of what Pussy Riot did but I've nothing but admiration for people who protest on the street. Doing that in Russia is a far different thing to doing it in London or New York especially given the new draconian fining laws.

    It was discraceful the way they hauled Garry Kasparov away. They gave no reason. I guess even saying the slightest thing against Putin or his government is now forbidden.
    I think the fines for protesting are even worse in other European countries.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #78
    cyberhog
    Registered Users Posts: 940 ✭✭✭cyberhog


    Pro-Pussy Riot demonstrators arrested in Marseille
    Demonstrators protesting at Russia’s jailing of punk band Pussy Riot were arrested by police in the southern French city of Marseille for breaking France’s controversial law against face-covering garments.

    ...

    France’s foreign ministry described Pussy Riot’s balaclava-clad performance in a Moscow church as “minor acts” and, like the US, Germany, the UK and several other countries, condemned the verdict as an attack on the freedom of expression.

    But protesters in Marseille who donned balaclavas in solidarity with the three young women - Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, Maria Alyokhina and Yekaterina Samutsevich – were rounded up after just 10 minutes outside the Russian consulate in the city, the local paper La Provence reports.

    http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20120818-pro-pussy-riot-demonstrators-arrested-marseille

    Excuse me while I barf from the nauseating hypocrisy emanating from the West.


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    #79
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    cyberhog wrote: »
    Pro-Pussy Riot demonstrators arrested in Marseille



    http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20120818-pro-pussy-riot-demonstrators-arrested-marseille

    Excuse me while I barf from the nauseating hypocrisy emanating from the West.

    Good old cyberhog, never misses a chance to have a go at the West. Surprised you didn't manage to work Israel and the US into the post, but I'm sure you'll manage it somehow. Just for you, I'll point out that the protestors in Frnce were not arrested for protesting but for covering their faces in a public, in contravention of a law which was designed to safeguard women's rights. It's not a law I agree with, but it bears no comparison to what happened and happens in Russia, where speaking against Putin and the government is risky business indeed. It's really quite increible how your entire political agenda, and it seems sometimes, your moral compass, is predicated entirely on having a go at the West.


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    #80
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    cyberhog wrote: »
    Excuse me while I barf from the nauseating hypocrisy emanating from the West.
    You are from the West. You subscribe to internet via the corporate west, wear clothes manufactured by big bad capitalist organisations, you eat western food, consume western goods, are (presumably) educated in western system, participate in western functionality in every aspect but military and government.
    You are a "westerner".

    If you can't tell the difference between public order offences and the story in question, then as per usual, far too subjectively and myopically so.
    Typical for a "westerner" really
    Change the record, whoever you are. Getting tedious.


    .


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    #81
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    cyberhog wrote: »
    .............

    Excuse me while I barf from the nauseating hypocrisy emanating from the West.

    Funny, I can't remember a similar incident in "the West". You'll doubtless be able to remind me of one.


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    #82
    cyberhog
    Registered Users Posts: 940 ✭✭✭cyberhog


    I see the usual apologists and head-in-the-sand types are working double time in this thread... getting their panties worked up over the exposure of Western hypocrisy.

    You lot think Western leaders are not hypocrites? Then lets see you try to explain away the following news story.


    Bahrain Imprisons Human Rights Leader for 3 years

    Joe Stork, Human Rights Watch deputy director for its Middle East/North Africa division, said:

    "The government has yet to show that Nabeel Rajab did any more than exercise his right to free expression and peaceful assembly. He should be set free, not sent away from his family to prison."

    Human Rights First director Brian Dooley said:

    "Even those of us who have followed Bahrain's violent crackdown on human rights are shocked by today's move," he said. "It's a breathtakingly bad decision, showing that the regime's rhetoric about reform and reconciliation is a sham. The charges are patently politically-motivated, and designed to silence him."

    The West has made a big fuss about the sentence handed down to the degenerate hooligans of Pussy Riot but not a word about 3 year sentence imposed on a true champion of human rights.

    Rajab explains below why the Western hypocrites are silent.
    In a video interview shortly before his arrest last month, Mr. Rajab told the Irish human rights group Front Line Defenders that the presence of the United States Navy’s Fifth Fleet, which is based in Bahrain, made the struggle against the monarchy more difficult. “Because they have the support of the United States, they have the support, or the silence, of the international community, that is seen here as a green signal, that’s why they are proceeding — more repression, more attacks against human rights defenders.”

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/bahrain-sentences-activist-to-3-years-in-prison-for-inciting-protests/

    In other news British trained Bahraini forces have beaten to death a 16-year-old boy.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/bahrain-boy-killed-in-clashes-with-police/story-fn3dxix6-1226453110771

    And as usual there is no condemnation from the West.


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    #83
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    cyberhog wrote: »
    ....................


    The West has made a big fuss about the sentence handed down to the degenerate hooligans ....................


    "degenerate"? Do please explain what you mean.


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    #84
    RedRightHand
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭RedRightHand


    Supporting Pussy Riot is safe, even if they are called Pussy Riot. It allows people to show how opposed they are to the sacred being protected by law or anything else that implies respect for the Christian tradition. Blasphemy laws are almost always impossible to frame or enforce, premeditated political stunts in church are an exception. I wonder how many celebrities will be outraged by THIS, a clear example of real injustice.


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    #85
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Yes 'cyberhog', tilt it all you like, you big bad westerner you.
    Moral relativism doesn't actually make your ill-informed post any more credible. Just as hypocritical as you slam others as being.


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    #86
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    cyberhog wrote: »
    Pro-Pussy Riot demonstrators arrested in Marseille



    http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20120818-pro-pussy-riot-demonstrators-arrested-marseille

    Excuse me while I barf from the nauseating hypocrisy emanating from the West.

    cyberhog, please keep the debate focused on Russia.
    You are from the West. You subscribe to internet via the corporate west, wear clothes manufactured by big bad capitalist organisations, you eat western food, consume western goods, are (presumably) educated in western system, participate in western functionality in every aspect but military and government.
    You are a "westerner".

    Sorry but does that really matter? I presume he meant western governments, just saying. Not agreeing with his attempt to change the subject or anything but your random assault isn't really much better.
    in contravention of a law which was designed to safeguard women's rights.

    Well no. It was designed to make France more secular actually.

    Aaaaanyway...

    Anyone think there is a chance of the girls getting a pardon?
    The West has made a big fuss about the sentence handed down to the degenerate hooligans

    Although many people I know term me as a Putin-lover, I would not term Pussy Riot as "degenerate".

    Some things the girls were involved in when they were members of the group "Voina" were pretty disgusting though, such as organising an orgy between several couples in a public museum and recording it.


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    #87
    Deep Easterly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    JustinDee wrote: »
    You are from the West. You subscribe to internet via the corporate west, wear clothes manufactured by big bad capitalist organisations, you eat western food, consume western goods, are (presumably) educated in western system, participate in western functionality in every aspect but military and government.
    You are a "westerner".

    Wow, some profound food for thought there! :eek:


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    #88
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    cyberhog wrote: »
    I see the usual apologists and head-in-the-sand types are working double time in this thread... getting their panties worked up over the exposure of Western hypocrisy.

    You lot think Western leaders are not hypocrites? Then lets see you try to explain away the following news story.


    Bahrain Imprisons Human Rights Leader for 3 years




    The West has made a big fuss about the sentence handed down to the degenerate hooligans of Pussy Riot but not a word about 3 year sentence imposed on a true champion of human rights.

    Rajab explains below why the Western hypocrites are silent.



    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/bahrain-sentences-activist-to-3-years-in-prison-for-inciting-protests/

    In other news British trained Bahraini forces have beaten to death a 16-year-old boy.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/bahrain-boy-killed-in-clashes-with-police/story-fn3dxix6-1226453110771

    And as usual there is no condemnation from the West.

    I condemn all that cyberhog. All right-minded people should do so. The difference though, is that I condemn things that are wrong, you condemn only that which fits in with your anti-Western ideology. Hence, you're the true hypocrite.


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    #89
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    On a side note: I noticed while reading an article on this story that Russia was downgraded last year to the ranking of "authoritarian state" in the Democracy Index. This places them below such bastions of democracy as Pakistan, Venezuela, Cambodia and Niger.


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    #90
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Brussels Sprout wrote: »
    On a side note: I noticed while reading an article on this story that Russia was downgraded last year to the ranking of "authoritarian state" in the Democracy Index. This places them below such bastions of democracy as Pakistan, Venezuela, Cambodia and Niger.

    Hmmm there the same people that do those liveability indexes aren't they, I'm not saying its necessarily wrong but I've a deep dislike of simple lists and metrics that are developed by private companies and which rely heavily on 'expert opinions' rather than on the quantifiable information and open methods.

    I'm curious about peoples views on this,is the general opinion that they should have been charged but not punished so severely? or that this is a valid protest even though it was located inside a religious building while a service was ongoing.

    I also don;t believe that judicial over reaction is restricted to more authoritarian regimes, look at some of the sentences handed down in the english riots, 4 years for creating a facebook page encouraging people to riot (while drunk and removed the next day!)

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/17/facebook-cases-criticism-riot-sentences


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    #91
    cyberhog
    Registered Users Posts: 940 ✭✭✭cyberhog


    Eggy Baby! wrote: »
    cyberhog, please keep the debate focused on Russia.

    Well I happen to think it's relevant to point out that Western criticism of the Pussy Riot sentence stinks of hypocrisy.
    Eggy Baby! wrote: »
    I would not term Pussy Riot as "degenerate".

    Having sex with a frozen chicken in a supermarket clearly meets the definition.


    degeneracy
    3. Corrupt, vulgar, vicious behavior, especially sexual perversion.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/degeneracy


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