Most-Wanted Nazi War Criminal Located in Hungary

ArtSmart · 17-07-2012 1:32am

Wibbs wrote: »

German scumbags were hunted down and if captured were imprisoned and often executed, yet the vast majority of Japanese scumbags from the common infantry man all the way up through generals and the emperor himself died of old age in their beds and in China alone they're estimated to have killed up to 20 million Chinese in consistent and sanctioned outbursts of near unbelievable "ethnic cleansing" savagery. An odd double standard going on. Almost racist in my humble. IE the "yellow nip" was expected to be a savage, but we can't countenance and condone white Europeans being so inclined, so they have to be excised. What many in the Soviet armies did in the eastern European countries and Germany at the end of the war is well morally repugnant. Hell what the same Soviets did to their own troops and people was morally repugnant and again Stalin et all usually died in their beds unpunished. This moral stuff can be quite the minefield.

well the standard Allied nazi hunters stopped searching soon after the war ended. the hunt was taken up be specific parties, invariably led/ supported by Jewish societies or funding. In other words, nazi hunting wasn't a 'Western' action - it was a specific action by a specific group and a fully justified one.

so the analogy doesnt really translate.

what Is interesting however, is the lack of mention of how Allied POW troops were treated by the Japanese. In that, your point definitely holds.

Calibos · 17-07-2012 1:39am

saintsaltynuts wrote: »

Cause there was so many of the feckers.

So its confirmation Bias you reckon? Could be I suppose.

ArtSmart · 17-07-2012 1:41am

Riddle101 wrote: »

97 years old. Whatever happens to him, is irrelevant now because he lived a full life. If he died tommorrow, he still managed to live a supposedly happy life which is more then I can say for the people he killed.

It aint 'bout the man, or any individual. It's about stating that the elimination of a race of people cannot be allowed to go unresponded to at any time , in any circumstances.

i have to laugh at the vested interest by Israel comment someone made.

fuking sure, they've a vested interest.

If the Nazis or similar goons decided that the Irish were the cause of the worlds ills and attempted to exterminate the entire race, dont you think we'd be pretty damned fuking certain we'd do exactly the same as the nazi hunters?

charlemont · 17-07-2012 1:55am

Lock him up, Let him die in captivity, He will be kept busy pondering the fate that awaits him when he dies.

Locking him up sends out the message to any wannabe genocidal maniacs that you can't kill people and expect to live out your own life without getting caught eventually.

meoklmrk91 · 17-07-2012 2:11am

ottostreet wrote: »

Superior genetics? Maybe Hitler was right.

Nah I would say its more the fact that you can't kill a bad thing.

I do believe that he should be tried regardless of his age, although I am sure he won't be, I really don't understand why a person can be considered too old to face the punishment for crimes they committed, surely he a murderous Cnut 60 odd years ago he still is now, if he dies during the trial or in captivity then well he met a better end than many of his comrades.

Father Damo · 17-07-2012 4:33am

Wibbs wrote: »

d, yet the vast majority of Japanese scumbags from the common infantry man all the way up through generals and the emperor himself died of old age in their beds and in China alone they're estimated to have killed up to 20 million Chinese in consistent and sanctioned outbursts of near unbelievable "ethnic cleansing" savagery. An odd double standard going on. Almost racist in my humble. IE the "yellow nip" was expected to be a savage, but we can't countenance and condone white Europeans being so inclined, so they have to be excised. What many in the Soviet armies did in the eastern European countries and Germany at the end of the war is well morally repugnant. Hell what the same Soviets did to their own troops and people was morally repugnant and again Stalin et all usually died in their beds unpunished. This moral stuff can be quite the minefield.

Very good point, I have never once heard of an elderly Jap being investigated for war crimes even though they commited an awful lot of them. Statistically Japan has one of the oldest life expectancys in the world, if you consider the youngest people to serve in the war and commit crimes are 85 now, even in 20 to 30 years some will still be alive given the age some live to in Japan.

gobnaitolunacy · 17-07-2012 8:45am

Father Damo wrote: »

Very good point, I have never once heard of an elderly Jap being investigated for war crimes even though they commited an awful lot of them. Statistically Japan has one of the oldest life expectancys in the world, if you consider the youngest people to serve in the war and commit crimes are 85 now, even in 20 to 30 years some will still be alive given the age some live to in Japan.

Some of the top brass were dealt with in the immediate aftermath of the war, but I don't recall any of the rank and file being made an example of. Was is resources or record keeping that prevented any pursuit? Certainly the Jewish lobby has some serious funding and support. It wouldn't have been very hard to track Japanese war criminals down, I'd say the most of them went back home afterwards.
Strangely enough, the Death Railway is regarded as something of an engineering feat in Japan, in spite of what it better known for in the Western world.

Father Damo · 17-07-2012 8:52am

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Strangely enough, the Death Railway is regarded as something of an engineering feat in Japan, in spite of what it better known for in the Western world.

Sure Cromwell routinely gets voted to the top of those Greatest Briton type polls despite being the closest thing to Hitler they ever produced (invasion of neighbouring lands, mass murder of civillians, deportation of civillians from prime agricultural land to the barren West to allow for British settlement, there really is little difference between Cromwell in Ireland and Hitler in Eastern Europe)

Wibbs · 17-07-2012 9:07am

paddyandy wrote: »

Wibbs should read up some history ....you still smarting from a previous skirmish .

Again with the odd (wildly inaccurate)statements. Maybe try to y'know debate? Just try once. Pretty please?

Ronin247 wrote: »

I would like to see a few of the allied war criminals named and tried as well but that will never happen.Certain organisations made massive profits off the war and whoever ordered Hiroshima and Nagasaki should surely be tried as a war criminal for deliberately targetting civillians? Of course there were only ever war criminals on the losing side.

Oh god not this old saw.:rolleyes: Difference between Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden and say the "final solution"? The second the armies of those countries surrendered, the bombings stopped. If Germany or Japan had surrendered in say 43 those events wouldn't have happened If the Jews, Gypsies, Russians, disabled and various other "enemies of the state" surrendered they would have kept on killing them and that's the moral difference.

I agree massive profits were made from the war, especially in the US. What people often forget is the same massive profits made in Germany by numerous companies and businessmen that helped Hitler to power and helped him prosecute the war. Companies and businessmen who continued on after the war down to today and very very few were brought to task.

ArtSmart wrote: »

well the standard Allied nazi hunters stopped searching soon after the war ended. the hunt was taken up be specific parties, invariably led/ supported by Jewish societies or funding. In other words, nazi hunting wasn't a 'Western' action - it was a specific action by a specific group and a fully justified one.

so the analogy doesnt really translate.

Forget the later hunts, the standard scumbag hunters didn't search in the first place in the far east, even though they had names and evidence. The POW's you mention were another group who lobbied who they could to bring some of these scumbags to trial, but to little avail. Interestingly the Chinese, who had the most to feel bitter about didn't go very vengeful at all when the dust had settled and repatriated the vast majority of Japanese servicemen, including self confessed war criminals.

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Some of the top brass were dealt with in the immediate aftermath of the war, but I don't recall any of the rank and file being made an example of. Was is resources or record keeping that prevented any pursuit?

Oh they had the records alright, just the will seemed lacking compared to the Nazi trials in Europe.

Certainly the Jewish lobby has some serious funding and support.

Not so much at the time though. They barely had a country at that stage and then spent the next decade(and beyond) fighting over it.

Strangely enough, the Death Railway is regarded as something of an engineering feat in Japan, in spite of what it better known for in the Western world.

Yep, though to be fair to the current Japanese they know very very little of their wartime history. Your average Japanese wouldn't have much of a clue about the atrocities perpetrated by their great grandfathers in Manchuria. Those questions have been avoided like the plague. They certainly never had the historical exposition and guilt educated into them that Germans had.

Einhard · 17-07-2012 9:18am

Wibbs wrote: »

As for this nazi fcukwit? Sure a show trial might have some value, but it would be a pretty blind revenge and show going on. The post war punishment of such creatures tended to vary a lot depending on their origins. German scumbags were hunted down and if captured were imprisoned and often executed, yet the vast majority of Japanese scumbags from the common infantry man all the way up through generals and the emperor himself died of old age in their beds and in China alone they're estimated to have killed up to 20 million Chinese in consistent and sanctioned outbursts of near unbelievable "ethnic cleansing" savagery. An odd double standard going on. Almost racist in my humble. IE the "yellow nip" was expected to be a savage, but we can't countenance and condone white Europeans being so inclined, so they have to be excised. What many in the Soviet armies did in the eastern European countries and Germany at the end of the war is well morally repugnant. Hell what the same Soviets did to their own troops and people was morally repugnant and again Stalin et all usually died in their beds unpunished. This moral stuff can be quite the minefield.

Excellent points there Wibbs, but I think you'll probably agree with me when I argue that justice should in no way be relative. I don't think that lack of vigour in prosecuting Japense war criminals should affect the process of going after those of a Nazi hue. Also, I'm no expert on the situation that pertained after the surrender of Japan, but from what I understand, the atrocities of the Nazis were in many ways more apaprent to the allies than those perpetrated by Hirohito's troops. In Europe, the concentration camps were liberated by allied soldiers with allied reporters in their wake. They were concentrated near population centres, and were easily accessible. The horrors of the Nazi regime perpetrated by dehumanised minions like this Csizsik-Csatary fellow were apparent to all. In contrast, and correct me if I'm wrong, but such a situation did not pertain in the Far East, particulary in China where the most inhuman crimes took place. (It's sobering to think that, such was the barbarity of the Japanese troops in China, Nazi envoys sent horrified reports back to Berlin on their actions against the civilian population- and yet, very few Westerners appreciate the scale of the horror perpetrated by Imperial Japan). I'm not altogether certain therefore, that one can ascribe racist motivation, or even an undercurrent of such, to the failure to prosectute known Japanese war criminals.

As for the Soviets, who committed terrible crimes in their push towards Berlin, well just as history is written by the victor, so justice is administered. The Soviets were never going to prosecute their own (and neither, incidentally, were the British, French, or Americans). Having said that, partial justice is better than no justice IMO.

As an aside, it's interesting to note how Japan and Germany's respective handling of their actions in that period have shaped their relations in the world today. I'd argue that Germany, through acknowledging her historical crimes, by prosecuting and abbeting the prosecution of known war criminals, and by paying reparations, has largely owned up to the legacy of that era, and this has been cathartic. Germany has good relations with practically every nation, including those such as Poland and France who bore the brunt of Nazi-era aggression. In repeated polls, she is found to be respected by both political leaders in Europe, and by citizens of most European countries.

The opposite is true for Japan. The inability (or obstinate refusal) to own her past actions, the honouring of dead war criminals at the national shrine, and the re-writing of school textbooks to shine a more positive light on her imperial history, has consistently stoked tensions with her neighours, and frequently provoked furious outbursts of ant-Japanese violence.

So perhaps, one could argue that not only is moral justice good for the soul, but that it is good in an entirely pragmatic sense too!

Einhard · 17-07-2012 9:22am

jmayo wrote: »

Oh FFS.
Here we go.

How many fooking civilians would have died if there had to be a full scale invasion of the Japanese home islands?
Look up a history book and see what the civilian casulties on Okinawa and Saipan were like.
Or better still explain how the emperor had encouraged civilians to committ suicide rather than be taken prisoner ?

Then work how if dropping atom bombs ultimately saved more lives than it cost.

At least you didn't mention Dresden. :rolleyes:

People might find it odd, but while I don't consider Hiroshima or Nagasaki to be war crimes because they hastened the end of the war, and thus saved countless lives, I don't feel the same about Dresden, or say, the firebombing of Tokyo. They seemed much more like revenge to me, and that, IMO, puts them in a different sphere than the dropping of Little Boy and Fat Man.

Einhard · 17-07-2012 9:25am

Jaafa wrote: »

I'd imagine were it not for the vested interests of Israel, the hunt for German war criminals would also have petered out long ago.

Hmmm...so that's what you call a desire for justice then?

Damn crime victims and their vested interests.

gobnaitolunacy · 17-07-2012 9:25am

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh they had the records alright, just the will seemed lacking compared to the Nazi trials in Europe. QUOTE]

A lot of records were destroyed prior to the Allied takeover of Japan, the Japanese didn't really know what the Allies had in store for them, even schoolkids were trained in hand to hand combat. Apart from the Bombs, maybe they may have been a little surprised how leniently they were treated?

Jaafa · 17-07-2012 9:41am

Einhard wrote: »

Hmmm...so that's what you call a desire for justice then?

Damn crime victims and their vested interests.

A poor choice of words perhaps, it wasn't my intention for it to come across like that.

biko · 17-07-2012 9:55am

****ing nazi scum. Try him, convict him and hang him.

gobnaitolunacy · 17-07-2012 10:04am

biko wrote: »

****ing nazi scum. Try him, convict him and hang him.

That's never going to happen, ie that end result, no matter how deserved.
Most likely a low-security prison more like a B&B to live out the rest of his days.

karma_ · 17-07-2012 10:20am

Einhard wrote: »

People might find it odd, but while I don't consider Hiroshima or Nagasaki to be war crimes because they hastened the end of the war, and thus saved countless lives, I don't feel the same about Dresden, or say, the firebombing of Tokyo. They seemed much more like revenge to me, and that, IMO, puts them in a different sphere than the dropping of Little Boy and Fat Man.

They were of course war crimes. The Japanese were already defeated and there was never any need to have a land invasion of an island nation. What's worse in fact, is that they were dropped to show the world and particularly the Russians what America was capable of. There's plenty of testimony from many of the US top brass at the time showing their disapproval of the dropping of the a-bombs.

It's actually still relevant today, because as much as the US still go on about others obtaining WMD's, they are the only ones to have ever used them on actual targets.

getz · 17-07-2012 10:23am

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Some of those Nazis were very good at hide and seek.

and there is me banking he would be found in ireland

karma_ · 17-07-2012 10:26am

getz wrote: »

and there is me banking he would be found in ireland

Damn man... you really do have issues about being from Ireland.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 17-07-2012 10:26am

A couple of years ago The Sun 'exposed' a former concentration camp guard who was back living in Germany. Nothing ever came of it, he died recently. Any of these people still living are not long for this world anyway. I don't think we'll ever see another person charged with war crimes in relation to Nazi Germany.

gobnaitolunacy · 17-07-2012 10:28am

karma_ wrote: »

They were of course war crimes. The Japanese were already defeated and there was never any need to have a land invasion of an island nation. What's worse in fact, is that they were dropped to show the world and particularly the Russians what America was capable of. There's plenty of testimony from many of the US top brass at the time showing their disapproval of the dropping of the a-bombs.

It's actually still relevant today, because as much as the US still go on about others obtaining WMD's, they are the only ones to have ever used them on actual targets.

Partly true, perhaps you underestimate the literally suicidal fighting spirit of the Japanese. If there was no A bombing, and an Allied invasion, don't think they weren't going to be any sort of pushover. A lot of very messy hand-to-hand street fighting etc. BTW I'm not pro A Bomb, but what alternatives did the Allies have?

getz · 17-07-2012 10:31am

karma_ wrote: »

Damn man... you really do have issues about being from Ireland.

no its just where a lot of them turned up with vatican passports

Father Damo · 17-07-2012 10:31am

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

A couple of years ago The Sun 'exposed' a former concentration camp guard who was back living in Germany. Nothing ever came of it, he died recently. Any of these people still living are not long for this world anyway. I don't think we'll ever see another person charged with war crimes in relation to Nazi Germany.

With the size of their army there must still be thousands of men who were in their late teens to early 20s still alive who were involved, a smal proportion of whom have another 15 odd years left in them.

karma_ · 17-07-2012 10:37am

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Partly true, perhaps you underestimate the literally suicidal fighting spirit of the Japanese. If there was no A bombing, and an Allied invasion, don't think they weren't going to be any sort of pushover. A lot of very messy hand-to-hand street fighting etc. BTW I'm not pro A Bomb, but what alternatives did the Allies have?

Well, there is literally reams of testimony from those at the top that essentially says that at that point the bombs were dropped, the Japanese were already defeated. In fact, I believe - and I'm open to correction here - that Japan had already offered a surrender prior to the bombing, the problem was that it was not unconditional.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 17-07-2012 10:39am

Albert Folens founder of the schoolbook publisher which bore his name was reputed to have assisted the Gestapo in hunting members of the Belgian Resistance. He was actually convicted by a Belgian court and sent to prison, but escaped and fled to Ireland

DEFTLEFTHAND · 17-07-2012 10:41am

Father Damo wrote: »

With the size of their army there must still be thousands of men who were in their late teens to early 20s still alive who were involved, a smal proportion of whom have another 15 odd years left in them.

There was Conscription though, Many were involved in active combat and not in the other atrocities.

Remmy · 17-07-2012 10:41am

In b4 Mossad

Wibbs · 17-07-2012 10:50am

What's really scary about reading about that time period is how easily ordinary people went along and enabled some of the most repugnant acts in human history. Very very few were forced to do it.

Read of a police chief in Germany ordered from on high to find collect and transport Jews from his area. He had moral issues with this, so he gathered his men together and told them of his misgivings. He also told them that he would go along with the orders, but didn't expect his men to do so if they felt it was wrong and that no sanctions would befall them if they refused. Turned out a fair number did refuse. At first. Within a couple of weeks the vast majority had returned to the ranks and were happily fulfilling the orders. Of the group there were one or two sadistic savages that came to the fore. Traits that had been hidden in the past, but most were normal everyday men with families, upstanding citizens and all that. It seems the Nazi command knew how this kinda thing would go. The police chief made official his misgivings but contrary to what you might expect, didn't get much hassle over it at all. They knew in the end people will go along with that stuff.

They also realised people have limits. Hence the final solution involving mechanisation and dehumanisation of the killing process. Mass shootings were causing issues with the troops on the ground, even dissent. Himmler himself had a weak stomach for such things. Himmler, a truly evil individual, but the perfect boss according to those who worked for him.

We see that in every area the Nazi's went into. Most people just go along with it, some certainly out of fear, but mostly to "fit in", with a rare enough few becoming complete monsters and an even rarer few that resist. The ones that do resist tend to be the "oddballs" the dissenters, the outliers in normal life. It seems that if history is anything to go by, if AH was a society in such circumstances, it would be more likely the trolls, troublemakers and oddballs, rather than the good posters that would hide you in the attic if you were on the run.

Einhard · 17-07-2012 10:55am

karma_ wrote: »

They were of course war crimes. The Japanese were already defeated and there was never any need to have a land invasion of an island nation. What's worse in fact, is that they were dropped to show the world and particularly the Russians what America was capable of. There's plenty of testimony from many of the US top brass at the time showing their disapproval of the dropping of the a-bombs.

It's actually still relevant today, because as much as the US still go on about others obtaining WMD's, they are the only ones to have ever used them on actual targets.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that or else we'll go far off-topic. We're obviously reading very different accounts and sources if you believe that Japan was entirely defeated, and would simply surrender without a fight. A debate for a different thread perhaps.

Wibbs · 17-07-2012 10:59am

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

There was Conscription though, Many were involved in active combat and not in the other atrocities.

The basic training the Japanese soldier went through was about the most dehumanising of all the conflicts forces. Shít like beatings, even live bayonet practice and the like. Very few ordinary infantrymen in China say would have not been involved. Rapes and murder were a daily thing, even quite a number of cases of cannibalism. They had "rapehouses" where Chinese women were raped to death as a form of R and R for the troops. They even built special rape chairs to secure these women. They had special scientific units who tested biological and chemical agents on civilians. Many Japanese doctors trained in surgical techniques with live and often fully conscious civilians. Unreal shít went on.

Most-Wanted Nazi War Criminal Located in Hungary

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