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Will the new generetion in Gaza want peace? Maybe not.

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    #32
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    A good article on the probable future of the Israel/Palestine conflict:
    http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/one-state-two-states-and-the-art-of-the-possible.html

    That site in general, which I found recently, seems a good source of news on the subject.


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    #33
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    A good article on the probable future of the Israel/Palestine conflict:
    http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/one-state-two-states-and-the-art-of-the-possible.html

    That site in general, which I found recently, seems a good source of news on the subject.
    Mondweiss is Weiss & Horowitz isn't it? (can't open as site is taking an age on my phone). They're an even more monocular version of John Pilger but meeker, less hedonistic and with a university education.


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    #34
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Their articles are pretty good thus far; they don't seem to have any significant media criticism apart from the usual "anti-Israel" slurs.


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    #35
    opinionated3
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭opinionated3


    Oh great....another israel / Palestine thread! My thoughts on the original post that started this thread is that if that is what young Palestinian children are being educated to do, well then it's going to be a never ending conflict isn't it? No solution forthcoming from either side, just a bloodthirsty hamas telling kids to end their precious lives early in the false hope that Israel will somehow give in because of their efforts. Fantastically backward thinking! they will never defeat the IDF militarily so surely the time is upon them to seek a better more peaceful way of trying to solve the region's issues? That is, of course, if they had their peoples best wishes at heart? But no, send their kids out to blow themselves up instead - that ought to get you your statehood!! Idiots.


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    #36
    opinionated3
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭opinionated3


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    The Zionists pretend they want the Palestinians to sit still and talk about sharing the cake while they're greedily stuffing their faces with it.

    I don't even like thinking about what is happening in the West Bank because of the enormous sense of powerlessness it engenders in me. If you want to know how to control and subdue an underclass then Israeli treatment of the Palestinians is the blueprint.

    This is why the topic gets discussed so much in spite of the bleating fools who parrot the Zionist cries of 'anti-Semitism' and 'look elsewhere for more pressing concerns' - this conflict concerns us all as human beings.
    Why? Why are there not huge amounts of threads on china v Tibet, the brainwashing of north Koreans etc. the anti Israeli sentiment on boards is quite frankly shocking. I never understood the Irish pro Palestinian agenda. We are a historically Christian nation ( not that you would notice that much these days) but yet we seem to take the side of a bunch of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists ( not all of Palestine, but a sizeable proportion).


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    #37
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    opinionated3 wrote: »
    Why? Why are there not huge amounts of threads on china v Tibet, the brainwashing of north Koreans etc.

    Consensus of the abuse of human rights and suppression of freedom.
    the anti Israeli sentiment on boards is quite frankly shocking.

    Shocking? What's shocking is the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli state.
    I never understood the Irish pro Palestinian agenda.

    You're misrepresenting people - I'm fairly sure most people are pro-peace settlement rather than pro Palestinian militants.
    We are a historically Christian nation ( not that you would notice that much these days) but yet we seem to take the side of a bunch of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists ( not all of Palestine, but a sizeable proportion).

    Doesn't deserve a considered reply so 'bleh' will have to do.


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    #38
    Patrick Cleburne
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 141 ✭✭Patrick Cleburne


    opinionated3 wrote: »
    Why? Why are there not huge amounts of threads on china v Tibet, the brainwashing of north Koreans etc. the anti Israeli sentiment on boards is quite frankly shocking. I never understood the Irish pro Palestinian agenda. We are a historically Christian nation ( not that you would notice that much these days) but yet we seem to take the side of a bunch of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists ( not all of Palestine, but a sizeable proportion).
    Propaganda is the answer to your question.

    The propaganda against Israel can be comparable to propaganda in the war of Northern aggression.


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    #39
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    The only thing that picture with the artillery shells shows is that children have access to a military camp probably besides the Lebanese border and that they hate Nasrallah...

    Maybe it's from the second Lebanese war in 2006. idk
    ahmm. Very inspiring...


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    #40
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    The Israeli wrote: »
    The only thing that picture with the artillery shells shows is that children have access to a military camp probably besides the Lebanese border and that they hate Nasrallah...

    Can we not agree that exposing children to militarism and violence is bad rather than pretending that one brand is less nasty than the other? I mean, we'll never live in peace unless we can agree that kids should be insulated from this type of shit as much as possible.

    You started this thread with the purpose of highlighting how children are brought up in a culture of violence and yet you try to waft away how Israelis can do it too.


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    #41
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Can we not agree that exposing children to militarism and violence is bad rather than pretending that one brand is less nasty than the other? I mean, we'll never live in peace unless we can agree that kids should be insulated from this type of shit as much as possible.

    You started this thread with the purpose of highlighting how children are brought up in a culture of violence and yet you try to waft away how Israelis can do it too.

    It's a good thing that you raise this point, because it gives me the chance to say what is the difference between the too cases, as i see it.

    Let's start with the Israeli side:

    You see children writing on artillery shells, and we agree that somehow they have access to it.
    I don't know where this picture was taken or anything. I just assume it was taken near the Lebanese border during the 2006 war because of the writings on the shells.
    First of all, this children were already exposed to violence by the Katiosha rockets that were fired on them daily during the war.
    They have been sitting in bomb shelters almost everyday for weeks.
    The violence was already there.
    Many temporary idf camps aren't heavily guarded against civilians.
    Is it intentionally to make children used to war? I have never read or heard that idea. It's much more likely to do with the IDF's indifference with some things. In the end - IDF is made of normal people and its purpose is defending Israel. When they'll grow up they will have to join the IDF (at least some). They will join the army as in many other countries.
    What's so terrible about them being accustomed to an organization that their lives are so dependent upon and in which they are going to spend 2-3 years?
    Haven't you seen military shows world wide? It's not that different.

    IDF means violence and death? You don't join the IDF to "kill arabs", you join to defend the country.
    The ones that join the military groups of Hamas and Islamic Jihad join in order to kill Israelis. No? listen and read their speeches.
    Do they defend their people? mm they shot Fatah soldiers, they use civilian areas to launch rockets. They aren't in the same category.

    We don't educate our children to kill. We don't educate them that sacrificing your life for the lives of your "enemies civilians" is a noble cause.
    Actually, we always differentiate between civilians and militants. Though, the first often suffer because of the last.

    I don't understand how you an take a picture of children painting on shells, and take a story of little children brainwashed into being martyrs and say: "yea, it's the same. you are a hypocrite."

    No, it's not the same. Just read what is written on one of the shells: to Nasrallah. Not to the Lebanese people, and that is whole the difference.


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    #42
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I was trying to stay out of this, however the high horsing is getting to me....
    A new program launched in Kiryat Gat schools has the expressed purpose of preventing Jewish girls from becoming romantically involved with Israeli Bedouin.
    The program enjoys the support of the municipality and the police, and is headed by Kiryat Gat's welfare representative, who goes to schools to warn girls of the "exploitative Arabs."
    The program uses a video entitled "Sleeping with the Enemy," which features a local police officer and a woman from the Anti-Assimilation Department, a wing of the religious organization Yad L'ahim, which works to prevent Jewish girls from dating Muslim men.
    (my bold and underline)
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/video-kiryat-gat-tells-its-school-girls-no-romancing-with-bedouin-1.248771
    In 2001 shocking reports surfaced from Gaza of summer schools being organised by Islamic Jihad, which were teaching Palestinian adolescents to become suicide bombers. The Israeli government denounced the camps as evidence that a new generation was being brought up to hate and to kill.

    What went unreported was that at a purpose-built barracks in the Negev desert, every summer hundreds of Jewish teenagers from Europe, Mexico and America pay to spend nine weeks saluting, marching, firing guns and otherwise pretending to be soldiers.
    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2007/09/middle-east-israel-british-idf


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    #43
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    nodin what has that got to do with the topic and question posed that was previously discussed?

    okay seeming that were on side issues,ill bring up one,there was a woman in ireland who was impregnated by an arab from morroco,he had a bomb in the suitcase,this was in the 1980's,he asked his then 'partner' to board the plane to jordan,and then to israel,he planned to blow up a plane with his pregnant girlfriend on it..thankfully the bomb was intercepted before it got to that stage..


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    #44
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    nodin what has that got to do with the topic and question posed that was previously discussed?

    ..


    Did you read the post before mine....?


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    #45
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    The Israeli wrote: »
    I don't understand how you an take a picture of children painting on shells, and take a story of little children brainwashed into being martyrs and say: "yea, it's the same. you are a hypocrite."

    No, it's not the same. Just read what is written on one of the shells: to Nasrallah. Not to the Lebanese people, and that is whole the difference.

    So if Palestinian kids wrote 'to Netenyahu' on Katusha rockets it would make it okay?

    FFS man... let's just make it non-negotiable that it's not good how kids are exposed to the failure of adults to be at peace.

    If we can't insulate our kids from this shit how can we expect future generations to come up with peace plans?


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    #46
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Gaza is a complete kip. How do Israelis think they are ever going to accept that.


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    #47
    mmalaka
    Registered Users Posts: 792 ✭✭✭mmalaka


    The Israeli wrote: »
    It's a good thing that you raise this point, because it gives me the chance to say what is the difference between the too cases, as i see it.

    Let's start with the Israeli side:

    You see children writing on artillery shells, and we agree that somehow they have access to it.
    I don't know where this picture was taken or anything. I just assume it was taken near the Lebanese border during the 2006 war because of the writings on the shells.
    First of all, this children were already exposed to violence by the Katiosha rockets that were fired on them daily during the war.
    They have been sitting in bomb shelters almost everyday for weeks.
    The violence was already there.
    Many temporary idf camps aren't heavily guarded against civilians.
    Is it intentionally to make children used to war? I have never read or heard that idea. It's much more likely to do with the IDF's indifference with some things. In the end - IDF is made of normal people and its purpose is defending Israel. When they'll grow up they will have to join the IDF (at least some). They will join the army as in many other countries.
    What's so terrible about them being accustomed to an organization that their lives are so dependent upon and in which they are going to spend 2-3 years?
    Haven't you seen military shows world wide? It's not that different.

    IDF means violence and death? You don't join the IDF to "kill arabs", you join to defend the country.
    The ones that join the military groups of Hamas and Islamic Jihad join in order to kill Israelis. No? listen and read their speeches.
    Do they defend their people? mm they shot Fatah soldiers, they use civilian areas to launch rockets. They aren't in the same category.

    We don't educate our children to kill. We don't educate them that sacrificing your life for the lives of your "enemies civilians" is a noble cause.
    Actually, we always differentiate between civilians and militants. Though, the first often suffer because of the last.

    I don't understand how you an take a picture of children painting on shells, and take a story of little children brainwashed into being martyrs and say: "yea, it's the same. you are a hypocrite."

    No, it's not the same. Just read what is written on one of the shells: to Nasrallah. Not to the Lebanese people, and that is whole the difference.

    Most of what you said here would be applicable to the the Palestinians in Gaza...so if we just edit and replace words like IDF with Palestinians equivalent it would express exactly how Palestinians feel about what they are doing and teaching their kids....
    The Israeli wrote: »
    Actually, we always differentiate between civilians and militants.

    How? or perhaps you see all the Palestinians as militants??


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    #48
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    JustinDee wrote: »
    As usual, "no excuse for violence but . . . " :rolleyes:

    Sounds a hell of a lot like your logic.


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    #49
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    So if Palestinian kids wrote 'to Netenyahu' on Katusha rockets it would make it okay?

    FFS man... let's just make it non-negotiable that it's not good how kids are exposed to the failure of adults to be at peace.

    If we can't insulate our kids from this shit how can we expect future generations to come up with peace plans?

    Should you be reminded that Nassrallah is standing in the head of a terror organization? The 2006 war was his adventure and the killing and kidnapping the bodies of two Israeli reserves soldiers patrolling the border.

    Listen, you can't isolate kids from this **** because they are being exposed to it anyway. Rockets launches, terror attacks close to the borders (like today done by the Islamic Jihad from the Sinay side), and suicide bombers in the cities (more relevant to the past). The images on the TV, and the newspapers.. Maybe in Ireland you can isolate them... not here.

    The difference that I'm talking about are not if children know what weapons are, but what should they be used for.
    One side thinks much more than the other that innocent civilians are a legitimate target for using weapons.


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    #50
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Should you be reminded that Nassrallah is standing in the head of a terror organization? The 2006 war was his adventure and the killing and kidnapping the bodies of two Israeli reserves soldiers patrolling the border.

    ........

    Kidnapping and killing aren't exactly the sole preserve of one side....


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    #51
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Nodin wrote: »
    Did you read the post before mine....?

    He did, and presumably saw that it was a big heap of whataboutery based on what he replied back to you.


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    #52
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    He did, and presumably saw that it was a big heap of whataboutery based on what he replied back to you.


    Not at all. The poster was trying to claim that there was clear water between what goes on one side and what goes on on the other. Thats not quite the case.


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    #53
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Nodin wrote: »
    Not at all. The poster was trying to claim that there was clear water between what goes on one side and what goes on on the other. Thats not quite the case.

    Nodin, I really don't think that your two links are closely related to the subject.

    My story was about killing the civilians of your enemy and not making peace with it.
    You bring up a link about a group that tells some girls not to marry Beduins.
    Well, it's bad but do you see the difference between those two? It's not a mild one.

    The second link was about "Marva, run by the Educational and Youth Corps of the Israel Defence Force and conducted entire year old members of the Diaspora. Dressed in boots and olive fatigues, aly in Hebrew, simulates the basic training of Israeli conscripts for 18-28nd obliged to carry an M16 assault rifle."

    How shocking.. Israel wants to attract young Jewish people to Israel to IDF service and Aliyah (immigration). Horrible.

    Look, if you carry a gun, it doesn't mean that you want to use it against innocents. Ask the local policeman..

    My point was quite different at start.


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    #54
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    ..........Look, if you carry a gun, it doesn't mean that you want to use it against innocents. Ask the local policeman
    .

    Our police are mostly unarmed.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    My point was quite different at start.

    Yes, the evil "other". We can all do that one.


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    #55
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Nope. My point was to give an example to one of the obstacles to lasting peace.

    You and many others often claim that if only Israel retreats to 67th borders, there will be peace.
    I say that with badly educated new generation of "freedom fighters" it is a much more complicated story. They don't do what they do in order to make peace in return to the 67th borders.
    Just another angle to the conflict. I'm not against the Palestinian people, and I don't present them as evil, though you like to make me sound that way.


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    #56
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Nope. My point was to give an example to one of the obstacles to lasting peace..

    ....by highlighting a minority group in Gaza, which conveniently draws attention away from the West Bank where this kind of thing goes on...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18344116
    Theres nobody with a gun at Israels head making them build these things.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    You and many others often claim that if only Israel retreats to 67th borders, there will be peace.
    I say that with badly educated new generation of "freedom fighters" it is a much more complicated story. They don't do what they do in order to make peace in return to the 67th borders...

    There was no Islamic Jihad in 1967. Nor was there an Hamas. Yet as time goes on and justice is denied the palestinians these extremist groups arise. And oddly enough, Gaza is the place where this fanaticism has had a hand in preventing colonisation, because its not like the Abbas approach has paid off.


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    #57
    Patrick Cleburne
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 141 ✭✭Patrick Cleburne


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Should you be reminded that Nassrallah is standing in the head of a terror organization? The 2006 war was his adventure and the killing and kidnapping the bodies of two Israeli reserves soldiers patrolling the border.

    Listen, you can't isolate kids from this **** because they are being exposed to it anyway. Rockets launches, terror attacks close to the borders (like today done by the Islamic Jihad from the Sinay side), and suicide bombers in the cities (more relevant to the past). The images on the TV, and the newspapers.. Maybe in Ireland you can isolate them... not here.

    The difference that I'm talking about are not if children know what weapons are, but what should they be used for.
    One side thinks much more than the other that innocent civilians are a legitimate target for using weapons.
    The kids should not be isolated from it anyway. In order to keep your country from being invaded and wiped off the face of the earth, the young Jewish kids need to understand they have to defend the future of the Jewish race and Israel.

    If Israel is destroyed, the victors will write the history and portray the Jewish people as the bad guys who are only defending their historic home. You should not apologise for anything on this forum mate.


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    #58
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Patrick Cleburne wrote: »
    The kids should not be isolated from it anyway. In order to keep your country from being invaded and wiped off the face of the earth, the young Jewish kids need to understand they have to defend the future of the Jewish race and Israel. .

    There are Jews outside Israel, you know. And 20% of Israelis are Palestinian muslims.


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    #59
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Nodin wrote: »
    There are Jews outside Israel, you know. And 20% of Israelis are Palestinian muslims.

    KeithAFC can only see the Israel situation in terms of the siege mentality he has been brought up with.

    A 'little Ulster' on the Mediterranean with a pesky dispossessed minority.


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    #60
    Patrick Cleburne
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 141 ✭✭Patrick Cleburne


    Nodin wrote: »
    There are Jews outside Israel, you know. And 20% of Israelis are Palestinian muslims.
    Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. A Jewish state for a Jewish people. They are fully entitled to defend themselves and the land.


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    #61
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Nodin wrote: »
    There was no Islamic Jihad in 1967. Nor was there an Hamas. Yet as time goes on and justice is denied the palestinians these extremist groups arise. And oddly enough, Gaza is the place where this fanaticism has had a hand in preventing colonisation, because its not like the Abbas approach has paid off.

    There was a PLO in 1967, attacking Israel from Jordan, which had been occupying the West Bank since 1948. The Jordanians would finally get fed up with the PLO terrorists and went all Black September on them a few years later.

    Regarding Gaza, it wasn't "fanaticism" that influenced the Israeli pullout from Gaza, it was a political act from Ariel Sharon, if Israel had wanted the dismal uneconomic land of Gaza, it would have stayed there. The West Bank has much more productive land so is more attractive to settle, I'm not justifying it btw, just calling it as it is.

    Also, you seem to ignore that although settlement activities unfortunately continue in the West Bank, the Abbas governments less-hostile approach has led to an increase in living standards for the palestinian citizens of the West Bank and an increase in economic activity whereas Hamas's approach has led to the exact opposite in Gaza, aside from an increase in black market activity from which Hamas garners "taxes".


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