Will the new generetion in Gaza want peace? Maybe not.

The Israeli

As I have been telling before, sadly, the ill education in the Palestinian territories teaches to hatred and rooting the problem within the young generation's mind, making them new peace opposers that want death, instead of compromisers that want peace.
I can't generalize because this is talking about special kindergartens but it seems like a vast problem.

I wouldn't say that in Israel it's all good, but it's not nearly like that.
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4241588,00.html

Gaza kindergartners want to 'blow up Zionists'.
Kids at Islamic Jihad kindergarten celebrate end of year by demonstrating how Palestinian prisoners are 'tortured' in Israel. Teacher: We educate them to love resistance, Palestine.

Elior Levy
Published:
06.12.12, 18:08 / Israel News



Children attending a kindergarten in Gaza that is run by Islamic Jihad celebrated their graduation by dressing up in army attire, waving toy rifles and chanting anti-Israel slogans.
"It is our obligation to educate the children to love the resistance, Palestine and Jerusalem, so they will recognize the importance of Palestine and who its enemy is," the kindergarten's director said.
The children were dressed up in uniforms of Jihad's armed-wing, the al-Quds Brigades, and each of them received a toy rifle. Some of them held up photos of Islamic Jihad founder Fathi Shaqaqi.
The event was attended by the children's relatives, some of whom belong to Islamic Jihad and other armed Palestinian factions.
During the ceremony the children were asked to stand next to mock coffins draped with flags of the various armed factions. The flags bore the images of "shahids (martyrs)."
One child, Hamza, said "When I grow up I'll join Islamic Jihad and the al-Quds Brigades. I'll fight the Zionist enemy and fire missiles at it until I die as a shahid and join my father in heaven.
"I love the resistance and the martyrs and Palestine, and I want to blow myself up on Zionists and kill them on a bus in a suicide bombing," he said.
During the ceremony the children "demonstrated" how Israel treats Palestinian prisoners. In the display, handcuffed children depicting inmates were placed in cages, with an "Israeli guard" standing nearby.
Another child depicting an Israeli prison guard placed the head of a "Palestinian prisoner" in a bucket of water to demonstrate how Palestinian prisoners are "tortured" in Israel.
"At every kindergarten graduation ceremony we focus on the children to represent the role of struggling and resistance in the way of Allah so they will grow up to love the resistance and serve the cause of Palestine and Holy Jihad, as well as to make them leaders and fighters to defend the holy soil of Palestine," one of the teachers said.

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

.............
I can't generalize because this is talking about special kindergartens but it seems like a vast problem.
........

You can't generalise because this is a place run by a minority extremist group, but you'll go on to say the problem is "vast". Great stuff.

The Israeli wrote: »

making them new peace opposers that want death, instead of compromisers that want peace.........

....considering that Gaza is no longer occupied or being colonised, but the areas run by the moderates are, what kind of message do you think that sends?

hatrickpatrick

Define "peace"?
A lot of people take "peace" to simply mean an end to the conflict. Without a resolution of the issues driving the conflict, true peace is impossible.

The Israeli

I think that a true peace is possible. But not in the next 10-20 years.
About the occupied by moderated territories - they may be moderates but they put obstacles in the peace process too. So does our current government. But the previous one was a much more willing, and still..

Should we go into it again? Maybe not this time.. it's just not the subject and I want for a change to keep to it, and make it a short thread. Let's not tire ourselves with old stuff.

The education of the young generation should be the subject, and how can peace be possible if the younger generation isn't an improvement on top of the old one. If people were willing to end the conflict it would have been only because they were tired of it. Unfortunately, it's always being inflamed in the minds of young people who are going to be the leaders of the next decade. Pretty sad.
Even if the Jihadists are a minority, without peace from their side, peace is impossible.

Eggy Baby!

There would be no martyrs to worship if Israel didn't make them every so often.

cyberhog

The Israeli wrote: »

As I have been telling before, sadly, the ill education in the Palestinian territories teaches to hatred and rooting the problem within the young generation's mind, making them new peace opposers that want death, instead of compromisers that want peace.

No mention of the anguish that Palestinian children have to endure living in a drawn-out conflict. How the daily grind of occupation makes life a misery for so many Palestinian children. No mention of the aggressive and oppressive policies and practices of the Israeli occupation. No mention of the violence, humiliation and brutality meted out by Israeli soldiers and settlers since 1967.

No mention of the 15 Palestinian children killed in 2011 ,13 by Israeli security forces and 2 by settlers, or the 384 children injured by Israeli forces and 41 by settlers, which the UN say is a significiant increase compared with the previous year. You say Palestinian children are taught to hate without considering the inhumane treatment they endure at the hands of Israeli forces.

If Israel is really conncerned about the next generation's mind it should stop the violent and degrading treatment of Palestinian children, end the occupation and then you will find peace.

The Israeli

cyberhog wrote: »

No mention of the anguish that Palestinian children have to endure living in a drawn-out conflict. How the daily grind of occupation makes life a misery for so many Palestinian children. No mention of the aggressive and oppressive policies and practices of the Israeli occupation. No mention of the violence, humiliation and brutality meted out by Israeli soldiers and settlers since 1967.

No mention of the 15 Palestinian children killed in 2011 ,13 by Israeli security forces and 2 by settlers, or the 384 children injured by Israeli forces and 41 by settlers, which the UN say is a significiant increase compared with the previous year. You say Palestinian children are taught to hate without considering the inhumane treatment they endure at the hands of Israeli forces.

If Israel is really conncerned about the next generation's mind it should stop the violent and degrading treatment of Palestinian children, end the occupation and then you will find peace.

Children aren't born to hate. Grown ups teach them that. Starting from the age of 0.
I know that many Palestinians have died. What's the real point? Why did they die? On purpose or because of the actions of their grown ups?
The second and first intifadas, the countless terror attacks, the thousands of missiles.

Please don't forget the 2000 + Israeli casualties since the year 2000.
Numbers are tricky because it seems that we care about our lives more, while they are willingly blow up themselves or throw stones at soldiers with guns.
They are often an organized crowd and encouraged by adults. (an example)

We don't learn to hate in our schools. We don't educate to hatred. On the contrary - I remember how my teachers used to tell that they hope that when we will be at the army age, hopefully there will be peace.
A sad joke - when I was enlisted to the army the second intifada was unfolding really badly. I don't really think that my children will have that desired peace when they will go to the army.
When young children are taught that ****e, and are sent to throw stones (I have seen countless of stone throwers) peace is a really funny word.


Settlements or not, until there is that hatred and not "lets solve this out", there will be war.
Education has a big role in the conflict. They plant the seed of hatred and nurture it. It will not easily go away when it's rooted from a so young age.
We can give up on lands, but they want everything because they are being raised that way. Like a pre programmed machines.
Why would they stop if their goals would be far from achieved at the 67's borders. They are being taught of different things.
We also have our lunatics but the differences are noticeable.

JustinDee

What they'll want is a democracy. However with Hamas' cast-iron grip on Gaza, it doesn't look like they'll get it.
Still no opposition representatives permitted and still no elections forthcoming.

wes

A place under siege like Gaza, is a fertile breeding ground for extremists. When people are treated like crap, no one should be surprised that some will resort to extremism. Still, the OP seems to be engaged in hyperbole, as this isn't a group that runs all the schools.

There is also the fact that in the West Bank, that the people trying to work with Israel, are getting more land stolen, regular attacks from Israeli colonists (protected by the IDF), not to mention IDF attacks, and the general daily humilation of the occupation.

Its very much a case of damned if they do and damned if they don't, working with Israel results in the continuation of violence, occupation, and colonistion, and going against them result in a inhuman siege.

Also, for those who doubt the inhumanity of the siege, this report is food for taught:
Gaza water too contaminated to drink, say charities

There is of course no excuse for attack on civilians launched from Gaza, but by the same token, Israels siege is an attack on the entire population and hurt civilians more than anyone else. It is rank hypocrisy from the West to allow the siege to go on, because if they truly believe what they say in regards to attacks on civilians, they would put a stop to this.

JustinDee

As usual, "no excuse for violence but . . . " :rolleyes:

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

As usual, "no excuse for violence but . . . " :rolleyes:

So you another person, who can't understand the difference between, explaning why something happens and making excuses for it. Perhaps, you don't really care, and are happy to ignore why both sides are killing each other. If the conflict is going to end, then whether you like it or not, people tend to need to know why such things are happening. I will say it again, treat people like crap, and you can't really be surprised by some embracing extremism. You can choose to ignore that, and reap what you sow.

mmalaka

How can you convince them to make peace with an army occupying their lands and attacking them on every possible occasion?

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

So you another person, who can't understand the difference between, explaning why something happens and making excuses for it. Perhaps, you don't really care, and are happy to ignore why both sides are killing each other. If the conflict is going to end, then whether you like it or not, people tend to need to know why such things are happening. I will say it again, treat people like crap, and you can't really be surprised by some embracing extremism. You can choose to ignore that, and reap what you sow.

It is long past 'who started it'. Hamas especially have plenty of changing to do. As long as they have Gaza by the gullet, there won't be any change in tact against them.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

It is long past 'who started it'.

I wasn't talking about who started it. I was talking about, why its still going on. If you ignore the reason for why either side does what it does, then there is little chance for ending the violence.

JustinDee wrote: »

Hamas especially have plenty of changing to do.

Yes, they do, but seeing as the Palestinians in the West Bank are working with Israel, and are getting attacks from colonists and the IDF on a regular basis, more and more colonies, and the entire occupation business, there is really very little incentive for change on there part. Regardless of what Palestinians do, Israel will punish them.

JustinDee wrote: »

As long as they have Gaza by the gullet, there won't be any change in tact against them.

So you support an inhuman siege that hurts the civilians more than it ever will Hamas? Sorry, but the support for Israels siege, is support for what is an attack on civilians. The West has shown its complete and utter hypocrisy when it comes to this conflict, but not putting a stop to the siege.

Even if Hamas change, there is no evidence that Israel will change in response, in fact we know exactly how Israel reacts to Palestinians trying to work with them, we see in the West Bank, with the constant colonial expansion on violence from Israel.

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Children aren't born to hate. Grown ups teach them that. Starting from the age of 0.
I know that many Palestinians have died. What's the real point? Why did they die? On purpose or because of the actions of their grown ups?
The second and first intifadas, the countless terror attacks, the thousands of missiles.
.

...or because the colonisation project of their neighbour, which you seemed to have forgotten.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

I wasn't talking about who started it. I was talking about, why its still going on. If you ignore the reason for why either side does what it does, then there is little chance for ending the violence

You do realise what a vicious circle is, don't you? I'm not ignoring anything. The root tinders of the conflict are Hamas in Gaza and Israeli govt relying on (hardline) fringe parties for forming cabinets. From there stems the likes of free rein for the Hamas to run Gaza as they do and for an Israeli cabinet to turn a blind eye to apartments being built in the likes of East Jerusalem.
The blockade on Gaza won't change until an unflinching Hamas are out regardless of who is in power in Israel. The power to change governance in Israel is in the power of the electorate of a divided country. In Gaza, it is with those in governance and not even an inch closer to its inhabitants.

Until these differences can implement themselves, the conflict continues.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

You do realise what a vicious circle is, don't you? I'm not ignoring anything.

Yes, its a vicous circle, but we see even when some Palestinians work with Israel, they get nothing but the same old crap in return. How can anything change, when even when Palestinians work with Israel, they get nothing in return from them?

JustinDee wrote: »

The root tinders of the conflict are Hamas in Gaza and Israeli govt relying on (hardline) fringe parties for forming cabinets. From there stems the likes of free rein for the Hamas to run Gaza as they do and for an Israeli cabinet to turn a blind eye to apartments being built in the likes of East Jerusalem.

There not turning a blind eye at all, there actively planning them:
Israel announces plans for new settler homes

Also, there is the constant settler violence, that occurs under the complete protection of the IDF. There is no blind eye being turned to anyrthing, the Israeli government is actively involved in the violence and oppression in the West Bank.

Its not the fringe parties anymore either, the Likud can hardly be described as a fringe party at this point. Netanyahu, has never had any interest in any kind of peace, and never will, and his party is more popular than ever.

JustinDee wrote: »

The blockade on Gaza won't change until an unflinching Hamas are out regardless of who is in power in Israel. The power to change governance in Israel is in the power of the electorate of a divided country. In Gaza, it is with those in governance and not even an inch closer to its inhabitants.

Until these differences can implement themselves, the conflict continues.

Sorry, but we know exactly how the Palestinian are treated when Hamas are not in power, as we have the West Bank to compare. They get more settlements, more violence, and more occupation. Hamas doesn't matter to Israel, they will continue there policies in regards to the Palestinians regardless.

Either way, the inhuman siege needs to end now. The West needs to ends it rank hypocrisy and put an end to it.

caff

I find this website quite informative to read about the experiences of people who have visited the regions http://972mag.com/the-round-trip/

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

Yes, its a vicous circle, but we see even when some Palestinians work with Israel, they get nothing but the same old crap in return. How can anything change, when even when Palestinians work with Israel, they get nothing in return from them?

You're attempting to make this all a one-sided affair when it is very much far from that.

wes wrote: »

Its not the fringe parties anymore either, the Likud can hardly be described as a fringe party at this point. Netanyahu, has never had any interest in any kind of peace, and never will, and his party is more popular than ever

Fringe parties running hardline agendae are necessary for every coalition government. The country is split. When the other half mobilises enough, the fringe parties are no longer required. Obviously I'm not referring to Likud *sigh*

wes wrote: »

Sorry, but we know exactly how the Palestinian are treated when Hamas are not in power, as we have the West Bank to compare. They get more settlements, more violence, and more occupation. Hamas doesn't matter to Israel, they will continue there policies in regards to the Palestinians regardless

Hamas matters in every regard. You're once again ignoring the roots of the current powerbases - the problems as seen in the eyes of each side of the conflict. The settlements are an effect. They are co-ordinated. As are the attacks on Israelis. The instigators are the problems and there are more than one, despite your constant and misinformed insistance that this is all down to one side.

wes wrote: »

Either way, the inhuman siege needs to end now. The West needs to ends it rank hypocrisy and put an end to it.

Hamas needs to loosen its grip over its inhaibitants' and allow elections and an opposition line to contest them.
"The West" indeed . . . just "The West" . . .

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

You're attempting to make this all a one-sided affair when it is very much far from that.

In the West Bank, its is largely one sided actually. The Palestinians are working with Israel and are getting more of the same from Israel in return.

JustinDee wrote: »

Fringe parties running hardline agendae are necessary for every coalition government. The country is split. When the other half mobilises enough, the fringe parties are no longer required. Obviously I'm not referring to Likud *sigh*

At this point in time, Likud doesn't need the fringe btw, as they are have Kadima in coalition, and yet we see more settlment expansion. I am not seeing any real split here, when every single Israeli government has engaged in settlement expansion, and even when the Palestinian try to work with Israel they get more of the same.

JustinDee wrote: »

Hamas matters in every regard.

In regards to Gaza they do matter, but they don't hold power in the West Bank, so they don't really matter all that much there. You essentially refuse to acknowledge Palestinians working with Israel in the West Bank.

JustinDee wrote: »

You're once again ignoring the roots of the current powerbases - the problems as seen in the eyes of each side of the conflict. The settlements are an effect. They are co-ordinated. As are the attacks on Israelis.

Palestinians in the West Bank are actively helping prevent attacks and in return get more colonies. Again, Hamas does not run the West Bank. Using Hamas as the reason for settlements is ridiculous. Settlements existed long before Hamas existed, and are still going strong, even when Hamas have no power in the West Bank, and the people running the West Bank are working wth Israel and get nothing in return.

You are simply ignoring Fatah who run the West Bank, and constantly talk about Hamas this and Hamas that, but in the case of the West Bank, they are largely irrelevant, as they don't run the place. You have yet to address why Israel has given the Palestians who actually try to work with them more colonies in return for cooperation.

JustinDee wrote: »

The instigators are the problems and there are more than one, despite your constant and misinformed insistance that this is all down to one side.

In the West Bank it is down to one side, as Hamas do not control it. Using Hamas to explain Israel actions in the West Bank is absurd. They don't run the West Bank, and have little say in what happens there.

JustinDee wrote: »

Hamas needs to loosen its grip over its inhaibitants' and allow elections and an opposition line to contest them.

Sure they do, but even if they do that. Colonial expansion in the West Bank, Israeli violence from both settlers and the IDF will continue regardless. There is ample evidence that clearly show no matter what Palestinians, Israel will not stop what there doing.

JustinDee wrote: »

"The West" indeed . . . just "The West" . . .

Seeing as the West are the ones who support Israel, its on them to end the siege. As it stands the Wests concern for civilians is a complete lie. FFS, the West can't even be bothered to put an end to expanding colonies in the West Bank. I stand by my earlies statement, the Palestinians are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they work with Israel thet get violence, if they work against them, they get the same. There is ample evidence of this unfortunate fact.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

In the West Bank, its is largely one sided actually. The Palestinians are working with Israel and are getting more of the same from Israel in return

You're ignoring what I mentioned about root tinders.

wes wrote: »

At this point in time, Likud doesn't need the fringe btw, as they are have Kadima in coalition, and yet we see more settlment expansion. I am not seeing any real split here, when every single Israeli government has engaged in settlement expansion, and even when the Palestinian try to work with Israel they get more of the same

You wouldn't see a split. You're most likely cherry-picking the wrong reading material to do so and also obviously have never lived in Israel. Have you ever been to the West Bank?? I'd say never even been in region.

wes wrote: »

In regards to Gaza they do matter, but they don't hold power in the West Bank, so they don't really matter all that much there. You essentially refuse to acknowledge Palestinians working with Israel in the West Bank

I don't refuse to acknowledge anything. Abbas went to Hamas and tried to form an alliance but this is far from workable. Hamas are at war with Israel and will not change, despite some of the rhetoric that their apologists chuck out on the media airwaves.

wes wrote: »

Palestinians in the West Bank are actively helping prevent attacks and in return get more colonies. Again, Hamas does not run the West Bank. Using Hamas as the reason for settlements is ridiculous. Settlements existed long before Hamas existed, and are still going strong, even when Hamas have no power in the West Bank, and the people running the West Bank are working wth Israel and get nothing in return

Hamas are involved with the Palestinian side of talks, in a plastic coalition.

wes wrote: »

You are simply ignoring Fatah who run the West Bank, and constantly talk about Hamas this and Hamas that, but in the case of the West Bank, they are largely irrelevant, as they don't run the place. You have yet to address why Israel has given the Palestians who actually try to work with them more colonies in return for cooperation

In the West Bank it is down to one side, as Hamas do not control it. Using Hamas to explain Israel actions in the West Bank is absurd. They don't run the West Bank, and have little say in what happens there.

Again, not ignoring anything. Fatah's coalitive attempts with Hamas have forced the split in negotiations and provided an excuse for Netanyahu to continue as is.

wes wrote: »

Seeing as the West are the ones who support Israel, its on them to end the siege. As it stands the Wests concern for civilians is a complete lie. FFS, the West can't even be bothered to put an end to expanding colonies in the West Bank

How does "The West" do this? Why doesn't "The East" desist from its proxy operations in helping fan the flames and why do you not seem to consider this an option? (don't bother answering. that was rhetorical).

wes wrote: »

I stand by my earlies statement, the Palestinians are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they work with Israel thet get violence, if they work against them, they get the same. There is ample evidence of this unfortunate fact.

Apologetic excuses for a continued modus operandi by one severe faction that is a MAJOR instigator in this conflict.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

You're ignoring what I mentioned about root tinders.

I disagree with you actually, but the root cause of why Israel is doing what its doing the West Bank. What Israels wants there is clearly land. Hamas is just a convient excuse for them, despite the fact Fatah is bending over backwards to work with Israel.

JustinDee wrote: »

You wouldn't see a split. You're most likely cherry-picking the wrong reading material to do so and also obviously have never lived in Israel. Have you ever been to the West Bank?? I'd say never even been in region.

No, I have never been there. I see you have resorted to playing the man and not the ball. Tends to be pretty clear evidence of someone who can't come up with a proper reply.

BTW, every single Israeli government since 1967 have expanded settlement to some degree. If any such split exists, it seemt to be largely irrelevant when it comes to settlement expansion.

JustinDee wrote: »

I don't refuse to acknowledge anything. Abbas went to Hamas and tried to form an alliance but this is far from workable. Hamas are at war with Israel and will not change, despite some of the rhetoric that their apologists chuck out on the media airwaves.

Israel is at war with all Palestinians, and not just Hamas. Again, just look at what Israel doing in the West Bank, where Hamas isn't in charge.

Yes, you are ignoring Fatah, as you seem completley unable to explain why Israel is doing its doing in the West Bank, where Hamas has no power.

Also, Israel opposed any unity deal:
Israel Holds Palestinian Funds as Deal Nears

JustinDee wrote: »

Hamas are involved with the Palestinian side of talks, in a plastic coalition.

Really, care to provide a link, as last time I checked they were completley uninvolved in any peaces talks.

JustinDee wrote: »

Again, not ignoring anything. Fatah's coalitive attempts with Hamas have forced the split in negotiations and provided an excuse for Netanyahu to continue as is.

Israel is against any unity government. They have said it time and again.

Israel needs no excuse to expand settlements, they did it long before there was a Hamas, they did it during the Oslo process. They have been expanding settlements constantly, even during the so called "freeze" settlement exapanded. I have yet to see a single thing from you, ton convince me that Hamas are some how responsible for Israel expanding settlements, when all evidence clearly shows that Israel will keep expanding regardless.

JustinDee wrote: »

How does "The West" do this?

Very easily actually. The US could stop funding Israel to the tune of billiosn of dollars, and the EU could slap tariffs on Israeli goods etc. Plenty the West could do, but they rather support Israels violence instead.

JustinDee wrote: »

Why doesn't "The East" desist from its proxy operations in helping fan the flames and why do you not seem to consider this an option? (don't bother answering. that was rhetorical).

You mean like this:

Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

The East has done a hell of lot more than the West has ever done to end the conflict.

JustinDee wrote: »

Apologetic excuses for a continued modus operandi by one severe faction that is a MAJOR instigator in this conflict.

There an instigator in Gaza, yes, but you are happily making every excuse for Israel refusal to end there violence, by invoking Hamas. If Hamas was wiped off the face of the planet tomorrow, you can be damn sure you would see settlements expand. You have yet to explain why any change from Hamas, would stop settlements, and have done your best to pretend that Fatah who runs the West Bank working with Israel doesn't matter.

Again, what Israel is doing in the West Bank, is proof that you are completely wrong. Palestinians work with Israel and they get violence and settlements for there trouble.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

No, I have never been there. I see you have resorted to playing the man and not the ball. Tends to be pretty clear evidence of someone who can't come up with a proper reply

Pontificating about how Israelis are and how the electorate thinks or is divided from the comfort of an armchair is pretty far fetched moral relativism.

wes wrote: »

Israel is at war with all Palestinians, and not just Hamas. Again, just look at what Israel doing in the West Bank, where Hamas isn't in charge.

Yes, you are ignoring Fatah, as you seem completley unable to explain why Israel is doing its doing in the West Bank, where Hamas has no power.

Also, Israel opposed any unity deal:
Israel Holds Palestinian Funds as Deal Nears
Really, care to provide a link, as last time I checked they were completley uninvolved in any peaces talks.

Until Hamas desists, there won't be any talks with Fatah as they have sided with them as per their coalition effort last year.
Just saying, fella. Thats the way it is.

wes wrote: »

Israel is against any unity government. They have said it time and again

How can Hamas be involved in a democratic government in the first place??

wes wrote: »

Israel needs no excuse to expand settlements, they did it long before there was a Hamas, they did it during the Oslo process. They have been expanding settlements constantly, even during the so called "freeze" settlement exapanded. I have yet to see a single thing from you, ton convince me that Hamas are some how responsible for Israel expanding settlements, when all evidence clearly shows that Israel will keep expanding regardless

Again with the contrarian and disingenuous twisting of what anyone who disagrees with you says. I never said Hamas was a cause for expansion of settlements.

wes wrote: »

Very easily actually. The US could stop funding Israel to the tune of billiosn of dollars, and the EU could slap tariffs on Israeli goods etc. Plenty the West could do, but they rather support Israels violence instead

That would require an equivalent blockade of all other parties involved in violence too.

wes wrote: »

You mean like this:
Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

That is a list of demands. Not the basis for treaty of compromise or otherwise. 1967 borders again? They know that will never happen. Israel would ever give up the Golanim? It is of vital strategic importance and no-one in its control, including its previous occupiers, Syria would ever relinquish it. Know how 'open' Jersualem was before June 1967?

wes wrote: »

The East has done a hell of lot more than the West has ever done to end the conflict

Utterly naive. Russia and in its former guise of USSR has stoked just as much and treated it as an theatre of operations as any other proxy power.

wes wrote: »

There an instigator in Gaza, yes, but you are happily making every excuse for Israel refusal to end there violence, by invoking Hamas. If Hamas was wiped off the face of the planet tomorrow, you can be damn sure you would see settlements expand. You have yet to explain why any change from Hamas, would stop settlements, and have done your best to pretend that Fatah who runs the West Bank working with Israel doesn't matter

Yet again . . . sticking fingers in ears, closing eyes and singing 'la-la-la'. If Any government who is involved in the removal of Hamas as a threat will receive the most widespread support from the Israeli electorate. This is difficult to accomplish via diplomacy and democracy as Hamas obviously have no inclination towards either.

wes wrote: »

Again, what Israel is doing in the West Bank, is proof that you are completely wrong. Palestinians work with Israel and they get violence and settlements for there trouble.

You really have to see how it is in West Bank rather than from second-hand one-eyed carefully preferred material. The army do not sit back and let ultra-orthodox settlers carry on as they like. Some areas are no go for even IDF, IP or Civil Guard.
Changes start from government, under the majority's mandate. No coalition. Conducive compromise is refused by both sides of the Hamas/Israel conflict. Fatah should distance themselves entirely until Hamas are gone if any progress is to be made.

You can carry on with your apologetics, 'wes'. Everything you keep banging about with has been said before and thanked for by the usual posters ...

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

Pontificating about how Israelis are and how the electorate thinks or is divided from the comfort of an armchair is pretty far fetched moral relativism.

The fact remains that every single Israeli government since 1967 has expanded settlments. Yes, some people oppose the settlments, but the simple fact is that they have been essentially irrelevant since 1967, as evidence by every single Israeli government since 1967 expanding settlements.

JustinDee wrote: »

Until Hamas desists, there won't be any talks with Fatah as they have sided with them as per their coalition effort last year.
Just saying, fella. Thats the way it is.

How have they sided with them? The talks broke down. Your talking some nonsense right now. The way things are is that Fatah and Hamas are not on the same side.

Fatah has bent over backwards for Israel and has recieve violence and colonies in return. You can overlook that fact all you like and shout Hamas at the top of you lungs, but that excuse is worthless. Israel has been expanding there settlements since 1967, long before Hamas existed, long before they came into power and so on.

JustinDee wrote: »

How can Hamas be involved in a democratic government in the first place??

Neither Palestinian faction is democratic at this point, due there terms expiring.......

JustinDee wrote: »

Again with the contrarian and disingenuous twisting of what anyone who disagrees with you says. I never said Hamas was a cause for expansion of settlements.

Fair enough my mistake. I still fail to see there relevance in regards to them, as they do not control the West Bank.

JustinDee wrote: »

That would require an equivalent blockade of all other parties involved in violence too.

No, it wouldn't, as we clearly see from the siege of only Gaza, all the while Israel doesn't stop any of its violence.

Having said that, it could easily be targetted, in the beginning at settlements for example, which shouldn't be controversial to anyone, as everyone says there against them.

Hamas are already under various sanctions btw.

JustinDee wrote: »

That is a list of demands. Not the basis for treaty of compromise or otherwise.

No, its a proposal :rolleyes:, that Israel has ignored for 10 years. Still far superior to any effort from the US, who have acted in bad faith as a "honest broker", while being completely biased towards Israel.

JustinDee wrote: »

1967 borders again? They know that will never happen.

Then there will never be peace. The 1967 border with minor land swaps is the only way for a viable Palestinian state. If Israel is against that, then there against peace.

JustinDee wrote: »

Israel would ever give up the Golanim? It is of vital strategic importance and no-one in its control, including its previous occupiers, Syria would ever relinquish it.

Again, if Israel is against this, then there can't be peace.

JustinDee wrote: »

Know how 'open' Jersualem was before June 1967?

Reather irrelevant to the current solution. No East Jerusalem, no 2 state solution.

JustinDee wrote: »

Utterly naive. Russia and in its former guise of USSR has stoked just as much and treated it as an theatre of operations as any other proxy power.

Well, the USSR doesn't exist anymore. Secondly, it was the US, who was the "honest broker" during the peace process, all the while supporting Israel to the hilt.

JustinDee wrote: »

Yet again . . . sticking fingers in ears, closing eyes and singing 'la-la-la'. If Any government who is involved in the removal of Hamas as a threat will receive the most widespread support from the Israeli electorate. This is difficult to accomplish via diplomacy and democracy as Hamas obviously have no inclination towards either.

Why would they? Talking to Israel gets you violence and settlements as per the West Bank. Again, you ignore the fact that Israel will engage in violence regardless of what Palestinians do.

JustinDee wrote: »

You really have to see how it is in West Bank rather than from second-hand one-eyed carefully preferred material.

So you can't find fault with anything I say, and resort to this again. Again, play the ball not the man.

JustinDee wrote: »

The army do not sit back and let ultra-orthodox settlers carry on as they like.

So I must have imagined all those news stories, video etc of the IDF doing exactly that, when settlers attack Palestinians and they do nothing.

JustinDee wrote: »

Some areas are no go for even IDF, IP or Civil Guard.

Really, the best armed military in the region, with billions of dollars from the US, with access to the latest military tech, is unable to handle the settlers. Somehow I don't believe that.

JustinDee wrote: »

Changes start from government, under the majority's mandate. No coalition. Conducive compromise is refused by both sides of the Hamas/Israel conflict. Fatah should distance themselves entirely until Hamas are gone if any progress is to be made.

Yet, when Hamas had no power, Fatah also got nothing from Israel. Go figure, your constant Hamas excuse doesn't stand up very well. Before Hamas came to power in Gaza, settlements expanded, after they came to power they still expand. The settlements were expanding decades before Hamas even existed.

Even during Oslo, settlements expanded. You can use Hamas as a convient excuse, but the evidence show they don't matter in regard to Israel grabbing more land.

JustinDee wrote: »

You can carry on with your apologetics, 'wes'. Everything you keep banging about with has been said before and thanked for by the usual posters ...

Coming from someone who response to any and all of Israeli violence, colonisations etc in the West Bank, is Hamas, that is a bit rich. FFS, even a failed unity government is seen as reason enought to damn Fatah as being on the same side as Hamas according to you.

Sure Israel can have extremists like Avigidor Lieberman (who lives in a West Bank settlement), but the Palestinians have to get rid of Hamas completely, otherwise Israel will continue to steal land. Imagine if Israel was held to the same standard, and were hit with sanctions as long as Liberman and his ilk were in government..... How about the Israeli government distance itself from Liberman and his ilk as well, or do we accept that whether we like it or not they do represent a portion of Israeli opinion and have to be dealt with at the negotiation table? Why one standard for Hamas, but a completely different one for the settler crazies in the Israeli government? Hamas must be gotten rid of, but the crazies on Israel side are to be ignored.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

The fact remains that every single Israeli government since 1967 has expanded settlments. Yes, some people oppose the settlments, but the simple fact is that they have been essentially irrelevant since 1967, as evidence by every single Israeli government since 1967 expanding settlements

I told you how this happens. If you're going to keep ignoring that then there's no point.

wes wrote: »

How have they sided with them? The talks broke down. Your talking some nonsense right now. The way things are is that Fatah and Hamas are not on the same side.

Fatah has bent over backwards for Israel and has recieve violence and colonies in return. You can overlook that fact all you like and shout Hamas at the top of you lungs, but that excuse is worthless. Israel has been expanding there settlements since 1967, long before Hamas existed, long before they came into power and so on

They went into cahoots with Hamas to push for a UN statehood motion, which quite flatly went belly up precisely because of involvement with Hamas.

wes wrote: »

Neither Palestinian faction is democratic at this point, due there terms expiring...

Hamas have not one inkling of what a term entails. They don't need to. No-one is permitted to oppose them hence no elections.

wes wrote: »

No, its a proposal :rolleyes:, that Israel has ignored for 10 years. Still far superior to any effort from the US, who have acted in bad faith as a "honest broker", while being completely biased towards Israel

It is a list of demands steered at undoing what was done in the Six Day War.

wes wrote: »

Then there will never be peace. The 1967 border with minor land swaps is the only way for a viable Palestinian state. If Israel is against that, then there against peace

Unrealistic demand with no room for any compromise. You're claiming Israel is the only proponent of this tact yet prove that it most certainly isn't.

wes wrote: »

Again, if Israel is against this, then there can't be peace

Golan Heights will never be let go.

wes wrote: »

Well, the USSR doesn't exist anymore. Secondly, it was the US, who was the "honest broker" during the peace process, all the while supporting Israel to the hilt

It is irrelevant what the name of Russia is. They are part of a particular bloc that operates vividly in the Middle East hence not the only poker and prodder despite your endless claims that it is just 'west, west, west'.

wes wrote: »

So you can't find fault with anything I say, and resort to this again. Again, play the ball not the man.

So I must have imagined all those news stories, video etc of the IDF doing exactly that, when settlers attack Palestinians and they do nothing

As said earlier, its your chosen media outlet or publication, just like this is your cause du jour.

wes wrote: »

Really, the best armed military in the region, with billions of dollars from the US, with access to the latest military tech, is unable to handle the settlers. Somehow I don't believe that

Because you most likely choose not to. It doesn't suit your agenda.

wes wrote: »

Yet, when Hamas had no power . . . etc etc

You've already said this and I've replied.

wes wrote: »

Coming from someone who response to any and all of Israeli violence, colonisations etc in the West Bank, is Hamas, that is a bit rich. FFS, even a failed unity government is seen as reason enought to damn Fatah as being on the same side as Hamas according to you

That's how diplomacy works. Fatah undid a lot of work when they turned face. Now they've to start all over again. Played right into Netanyahu's hands despite all the advice not to.

wes wrote: »

Sure Israel can have extremists like Avigidor Lieberman (who lives in a West Bank settlement), but the Palestinians have to get rid of Hamas completely, otherwise Israel will continue to steal land. Imagine if Israel was held to the same standard, and were hit with sanctions as long as Liberman and his ilk were in government..... How about the Israeli government distance itself from Liberman and his ilk as well, or do we accept that whether we like it or not they do represent a portion of Israeli opinion and have to be dealt with at the negotiation table? Why one standard for Hamas, but a completely different one for the settler crazies in the Israeli government? Hamas must be gotten rid of, but the crazies on Israel side are to be ignored.

Ignoring a perfectly simple descript of why hardliners get into government with more bland moral relativism. The electorate is who is to be worked upon for a solution on the Israeli side. The people in Gaza don't have that option. You say no matter what happens in Israel's elections that nothing can be done without forcing it upon them. Utterly ill-educated and misinformed answer, I would think.

You can have last word 'wes'. Nothing that can be said hasn't been said already.

Nodin

JustinDee wrote: »

............

You wouldn't see a split. You're most likely cherry-picking the wrong reading material to do so and also obviously have never lived in Israel. Have you ever been to the West Bank?? I'd say never even been in region.

............

The fact is that the settlements have been continually expanded in the West Bank, despite the pacifistic attitude of the Abbas administration there. I fail to see what the location or holiday pictures of the person who made that observation have to do with that fact.

thecommietommy

The Israeli wrote: »

As I have been telling before, sadly, the ill education in the Palestinian territories teaches to hatred and rooting the problem within the young generation's mind, making them new peace opposers that want death, instead of compromisers that want peace.
I can't generalize because this is talking about special kindergartens but it seems like a vast problem.

I wouldn't say that in Israel it's all good, but it's not nearly like that.
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4241588,00.html

Accusing the Palestinians, or anyone else for that matter, for teaching hatred and rooting the problem within the young generation's mind is as usual very rich but typical of course from a Zionist. Even the Hitler Youth didn't drop down to the level of having children sign artillery and tank shells before been sent to bombard defenceless children and adults -

Israeli children signing shells



MOD SNIP: As has been pointed out in other Israel-related threads, showing graphic photos of bombing victims does little to further discussion and is highly inflammatory. Please do not post these kinds of photos directly in threads.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

I told you how this happens. If you're going to keep ignoring that then there's no point.

I am well aware of how it happens. Doesn't change the fact that its still happening. Kind of hard to make peace over land, when one side refuses to stop taking more and more of it.

JustinDee wrote: »

They went into cahoots with Hamas to push for a UN statehood motion, which quite flatly went belly up precisely because of involvement with Hamas.

They were in cahoots with Hamas during the statehood bid? Well, thats news to me and to Hamas too:
Hamas popularity hits a new low after opposing UN statehood bid

Seriously, your making this up.....

JustinDee wrote: »

Hamas have not one inkling of what a term entails. They don't need to. No-one is permitted to oppose them hence no elections.

Both side terms expired ages ago. BTW, Fatah (with US backing) planned to oust Hamas, before Hamas ousted them in Gaza:
The Gaza Bombshell
]
Both Hamas and Fatah democratic credentials are not the best.

JustinDee wrote: »

It is a list of demands steered at undoing what was done in the Six Day War.

No its a peace proposal, which was completely ignored. A starting point, that is still on the table, and has been ignored for a decade.

JustinDee wrote: »

Unrealistic demand with no room for any compromise. You're claiming Israel is the only proponent of this tact yet prove that it most certainly isn't.

So the 67 borders with minor swap are unrealistic, then the 2 state solution is a non-started then.

JustinDee wrote: »

Golan Heights will never be let go.

So who is being unrealistic now? The entire peace process is based on land for peace, and btw saying that Golan will never be let go, is clearly an uncompromising position.......

JustinDee wrote: »

It is irrelevant what the name of Russia is. They are part of a particular bloc that operates vividly in the Middle East hence not the only poker and prodder despite your endless claims that it is just 'west, west, west'.

The USSR is gone. The USSR and Russia are not the same. The USSR doesn't exist anymore. If you want to complain about the actions of a entity that no longer exists, then go right ahead, for all the good that it will do. Sure, we may as well complain about the Ottomans and Austro-Hungarian empire while your at it.

JustinDee wrote: »

As said earlier, its your chosen media outlet or publication, just like this is your cause du jour.

Its not just one media outlet btw. Plenty of them the world over record settler attacks, while the IDF do nothing. So, if you want to minimise Israels violence, go right ahead. You credibility is already pretty thin, when you start making up non-existent pacts between Hamas and Fatah.

JustinDee wrote: »

Because you most likely choose not to. It doesn't suit your agenda.

As opposed to your own agenda, where you claim that the best armed military in the region and one of the best armed in the world, is unable to handle some settlers. Sorry, I find your claims rather unbelievable, especially considering that the Israeli government is directly responsible for settlement expansion, so as such are responsible imho.

JustinDee wrote: »

You've already said this and I've replied.

It needed repeating.

JustinDee wrote: »

That's how diplomacy works. Fatah undid a lot of work when they turned face. Now they've to start all over again. Played right into Netanyahu's hands despite all the advice not to.

They undid nothing. The Israeli's were giving them nothing. They tried the unity government out of desperation, because they were getting no where with Israel.

The fact still remains that they are working with Israel and have recieving nothing but violence and settlement in return, before and after there attempts at a unity government.

JustinDee wrote: »

Ignoring a perfectly simple descript of why hardliners get into government with more bland moral relativism.

If your ok with Israeli hardliners you should be ok with the Palestinian one, anything less than that is hypocrisy. Its pretty clear one rule for Israel, and another for Palestinians.

JustinDee wrote: »

The electorate is who is to be worked upon for a solution on the Israeli side. The people in Gaza don't have that option. You say no matter what happens in Israel's elections that nothing can be done without forcing it upon them. Utterly ill-educated and misinformed answer, I would think.

I would think ignoring the fact that since 1967, every Israeli government has expanded settlements clearly shows that your completely wrong, and tbh putting sanctions on one side and not the other is utter hypocrisy. If its ok to put sanctions on Hamas, then the same goes for Israel, as long as they break international law, they should be subject to sanction like anyone else. Right now Israel can do whatever it pleases, and the West will support it 100%. There is 0 incentive for Israel to do anything as the West will let them get away with it.

Meanwhile, an inhuman siege, that does not hurt Hamas, but rather civilians is allowed to continue. Again, utter hypocrisy

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

If you can't make a point without hyperbole, graphic photos of bombing victims, or name calling, this is not the forum for you. At a minimum, any graphic photos showing victims of violence should be hyperlinked with a warning, rather than posted directly. Let me say, however, that the mods do not look kindly upon violence porn.

There won't be any more warnings in this thread.

laoch na mona

Palestine will be fine once Israel leaves

Chuck Stone

The Zionists pretend they want the Palestinians to sit still and talk about sharing the cake while they're greedily stuffing their faces with it.

I don't even like thinking about what is happening in the West Bank because of the enormous sense of powerlessness it engenders in me. If you want to know how to control and subdue an underclass then Israeli treatment of the Palestinians is the blueprint.

This is why the topic gets discussed so much in spite of the bleating fools who parrot the Zionist cries of 'anti-Semitism' and 'look elsewhere for more pressing concerns' - this conflict concerns us all as human beings.

KyussBishop

A good article on the probable future of the Israel/Palestine conflict:
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/one-state-two-states-and-the-art-of-the-possible.html

That site in general, which I found recently, seems a good source of news on the subject.

JustinDee

KyussBishop wrote: »

A good article on the probable future of the Israel/Palestine conflict:
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/one-state-two-states-and-the-art-of-the-possible.html

That site in general, which I found recently, seems a good source of news on the subject.

Mondweiss is Weiss & Horowitz isn't it? (can't open as site is taking an age on my phone). They're an even more monocular version of John Pilger but meeker, less hedonistic and with a university education.

KyussBishop

Their articles are pretty good thus far; they don't seem to have any significant media criticism apart from the usual "anti-Israel" slurs.

opinionated3

Oh great....another israel / Palestine thread! My thoughts on the original post that started this thread is that if that is what young Palestinian children are being educated to do, well then it's going to be a never ending conflict isn't it? No solution forthcoming from either side, just a bloodthirsty hamas telling kids to end their precious lives early in the false hope that Israel will somehow give in because of their efforts. Fantastically backward thinking! they will never defeat the IDF militarily so surely the time is upon them to seek a better more peaceful way of trying to solve the region's issues? That is, of course, if they had their peoples best wishes at heart? But no, send their kids out to blow themselves up instead - that ought to get you your statehood!! Idiots.

opinionated3

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The Zionists pretend they want the Palestinians to sit still and talk about sharing the cake while they're greedily stuffing their faces with it.

I don't even like thinking about what is happening in the West Bank because of the enormous sense of powerlessness it engenders in me. If you want to know how to control and subdue an underclass then Israeli treatment of the Palestinians is the blueprint.

This is why the topic gets discussed so much in spite of the bleating fools who parrot the Zionist cries of 'anti-Semitism' and 'look elsewhere for more pressing concerns' - this conflict concerns us all as human beings.

Why? Why are there not huge amounts of threads on china v Tibet, the brainwashing of north Koreans etc. the anti Israeli sentiment on boards is quite frankly shocking. I never understood the Irish pro Palestinian agenda. We are a historically Christian nation ( not that you would notice that much these days) but yet we seem to take the side of a bunch of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists ( not all of Palestine, but a sizeable proportion).

Chuck Stone

opinionated3 wrote: »

Why? Why are there not huge amounts of threads on china v Tibet, the brainwashing of north Koreans etc.

Consensus of the abuse of human rights and suppression of freedom.

the anti Israeli sentiment on boards is quite frankly shocking.

Shocking? What's shocking is the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli state.

I never understood the Irish pro Palestinian agenda.

You're misrepresenting people - I'm fairly sure most people are pro-peace settlement rather than pro Palestinian militants.

We are a historically Christian nation ( not that you would notice that much these days) but yet we seem to take the side of a bunch of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists ( not all of Palestine, but a sizeable proportion).

Doesn't deserve a considered reply so 'bleh' will have to do.

Patrick Cleburne

opinionated3 wrote: »

Why? Why are there not huge amounts of threads on china v Tibet, the brainwashing of north Koreans etc. the anti Israeli sentiment on boards is quite frankly shocking. I never understood the Irish pro Palestinian agenda. We are a historically Christian nation ( not that you would notice that much these days) but yet we seem to take the side of a bunch of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists ( not all of Palestine, but a sizeable proportion).

Propaganda is the answer to your question.

The propaganda against Israel can be comparable to propaganda in the war of Northern aggression.

The Israeli

The only thing that picture with the artillery shells shows is that children have access to a military camp probably besides the Lebanese border and that they hate Nasrallah...

Maybe it's from the second Lebanese war in 2006. idk
ahmm. Very inspiring...

Chuck Stone

The Israeli wrote: »

The only thing that picture with the artillery shells shows is that children have access to a military camp probably besides the Lebanese border and that they hate Nasrallah...

Can we not agree that exposing children to militarism and violence is bad rather than pretending that one brand is less nasty than the other? I mean, we'll never live in peace unless we can agree that kids should be insulated from this type of shit as much as possible.

You started this thread with the purpose of highlighting how children are brought up in a culture of violence and yet you try to waft away how Israelis can do it too.

The Israeli

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Can we not agree that exposing children to militarism and violence is bad rather than pretending that one brand is less nasty than the other? I mean, we'll never live in peace unless we can agree that kids should be insulated from this type of shit as much as possible.

You started this thread with the purpose of highlighting how children are brought up in a culture of violence and yet you try to waft away how Israelis can do it too.

It's a good thing that you raise this point, because it gives me the chance to say what is the difference between the too cases, as i see it.

Let's start with the Israeli side:

You see children writing on artillery shells, and we agree that somehow they have access to it.
I don't know where this picture was taken or anything. I just assume it was taken near the Lebanese border during the 2006 war because of the writings on the shells.
First of all, this children were already exposed to violence by the Katiosha rockets that were fired on them daily during the war.
They have been sitting in bomb shelters almost everyday for weeks.
The violence was already there.
Many temporary idf camps aren't heavily guarded against civilians.
Is it intentionally to make children used to war? I have never read or heard that idea. It's much more likely to do with the IDF's indifference with some things. In the end - IDF is made of normal people and its purpose is defending Israel. When they'll grow up they will have to join the IDF (at least some). They will join the army as in many other countries.
What's so terrible about them being accustomed to an organization that their lives are so dependent upon and in which they are going to spend 2-3 years?
Haven't you seen military shows world wide? It's not that different.

IDF means violence and death? You don't join the IDF to "kill arabs", you join to defend the country.
The ones that join the military groups of Hamas and Islamic Jihad join in order to kill Israelis. No? listen and read their speeches.
Do they defend their people? mm they shot Fatah soldiers, they use civilian areas to launch rockets. They aren't in the same category.

We don't educate our children to kill. We don't educate them that sacrificing your life for the lives of your "enemies civilians" is a noble cause.
Actually, we always differentiate between civilians and militants. Though, the first often suffer because of the last.

I don't understand how you an take a picture of children painting on shells, and take a story of little children brainwashed into being martyrs and say: "yea, it's the same. you are a hypocrite."

No, it's not the same. Just read what is written on one of the shells: to Nasrallah. Not to the Lebanese people, and that is whole the difference.

Nodin

I was trying to stay out of this, however the high horsing is getting to me....

A new program launched in Kiryat Gat schools has the expressed purpose of preventing Jewish girls from becoming romantically involved with Israeli Bedouin.
The program enjoys the support of the municipality and the police, and is headed by Kiryat Gat's welfare representative, who goes to schools to warn girls of the "exploitative Arabs."
The program uses a video entitled "Sleeping with the Enemy," which features a local police officer and a woman from the Anti-Assimilation Department, a wing of the religious organization Yad L'ahim, which works to prevent Jewish girls from dating Muslim men.

(my bold and underline)
http://www.haaretz.com/news/video-kiryat-gat-tells-its-school-girls-no-romancing-with-bedouin-1.248771

In 2001 shocking reports surfaced from Gaza of summer schools being organised by Islamic Jihad, which were teaching Palestinian adolescents to become suicide bombers. The Israeli government denounced the camps as evidence that a new generation was being brought up to hate and to kill.

What went unreported was that at a purpose-built barracks in the Negev desert, every summer hundreds of Jewish teenagers from Europe, Mexico and America pay to spend nine weeks saluting, marching, firing guns and otherwise pretending to be soldiers.

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2007/09/middle-east-israel-british-idf

christmas2012

nodin what has that got to do with the topic and question posed that was previously discussed?

okay seeming that were on side issues,ill bring up one,there was a woman in ireland who was impregnated by an arab from morroco,he had a bomb in the suitcase,this was in the 1980's,he asked his then 'partner' to board the plane to jordan,and then to israel,he planned to blow up a plane with his pregnant girlfriend on it..thankfully the bomb was intercepted before it got to that stage..

Nodin

christmas2012 wrote: »

nodin what has that got to do with the topic and question posed that was previously discussed?

..

Did you read the post before mine....?

Chuck Stone

The Israeli wrote: »

I don't understand how you an take a picture of children painting on shells, and take a story of little children brainwashed into being martyrs and say: "yea, it's the same. you are a hypocrite."

No, it's not the same. Just read what is written on one of the shells: to Nasrallah. Not to the Lebanese people, and that is whole the difference.

So if Palestinian kids wrote 'to Netenyahu' on Katusha rockets it would make it okay?

FFS man... let's just make it non-negotiable that it's not good how kids are exposed to the failure of adults to be at peace.

If we can't insulate our kids from this shit how can we expect future generations to come up with peace plans?

woodoo

Gaza is a complete kip. How do Israelis think they are ever going to accept that.

mmalaka

The Israeli wrote: »

It's a good thing that you raise this point, because it gives me the chance to say what is the difference between the too cases, as i see it.

Let's start with the Israeli side:

You see children writing on artillery shells, and we agree that somehow they have access to it.
I don't know where this picture was taken or anything. I just assume it was taken near the Lebanese border during the 2006 war because of the writings on the shells.
First of all, this children were already exposed to violence by the Katiosha rockets that were fired on them daily during the war.
They have been sitting in bomb shelters almost everyday for weeks.
The violence was already there.
Many temporary idf camps aren't heavily guarded against civilians.
Is it intentionally to make children used to war? I have never read or heard that idea. It's much more likely to do with the IDF's indifference with some things. In the end - IDF is made of normal people and its purpose is defending Israel. When they'll grow up they will have to join the IDF (at least some). They will join the army as in many other countries.
What's so terrible about them being accustomed to an organization that their lives are so dependent upon and in which they are going to spend 2-3 years?
Haven't you seen military shows world wide? It's not that different.

IDF means violence and death? You don't join the IDF to "kill arabs", you join to defend the country.
The ones that join the military groups of Hamas and Islamic Jihad join in order to kill Israelis. No? listen and read their speeches.
Do they defend their people? mm they shot Fatah soldiers, they use civilian areas to launch rockets. They aren't in the same category.

We don't educate our children to kill. We don't educate them that sacrificing your life for the lives of your "enemies civilians" is a noble cause.
Actually, we always differentiate between civilians and militants. Though, the first often suffer because of the last.

I don't understand how you an take a picture of children painting on shells, and take a story of little children brainwashed into being martyrs and say: "yea, it's the same. you are a hypocrite."

No, it's not the same. Just read what is written on one of the shells: to Nasrallah. Not to the Lebanese people, and that is whole the difference.

Most of what you said here would be applicable to the the Palestinians in Gaza...so if we just edit and replace words like IDF with Palestinians equivalent it would express exactly how Palestinians feel about what they are doing and teaching their kids....

The Israeli wrote: »

Actually, we always differentiate between civilians and militants.

How? or perhaps you see all the Palestinians as militants??

Eggy Baby!

JustinDee wrote: »

As usual, "no excuse for violence but . . . " :rolleyes:

Sounds a hell of a lot like your logic.

The Israeli

Chuck Stone wrote: »

So if Palestinian kids wrote 'to Netenyahu' on Katusha rockets it would make it okay?

FFS man... let's just make it non-negotiable that it's not good how kids are exposed to the failure of adults to be at peace.

If we can't insulate our kids from this shit how can we expect future generations to come up with peace plans?

Should you be reminded that Nassrallah is standing in the head of a terror organization? The 2006 war was his adventure and the killing and kidnapping the bodies of two Israeli reserves soldiers patrolling the border.

Listen, you can't isolate kids from this **** because they are being exposed to it anyway. Rockets launches, terror attacks close to the borders (like today done by the Islamic Jihad from the Sinay side), and suicide bombers in the cities (more relevant to the past). The images on the TV, and the newspapers.. Maybe in Ireland you can isolate them... not here.

The difference that I'm talking about are not if children know what weapons are, but what should they be used for.
One side thinks much more than the other that innocent civilians are a legitimate target for using weapons.

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Should you be reminded that Nassrallah is standing in the head of a terror organization? The 2006 war was his adventure and the killing and kidnapping the bodies of two Israeli reserves soldiers patrolling the border.

........

Kidnapping and killing aren't exactly the sole preserve of one side....

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

Did you read the post before mine....?

He did, and presumably saw that it was a big heap of whataboutery based on what he replied back to you.