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International Tier 2/3/4 Thread

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  • 12-06-2012 12:57pm
    #1
    KenSwee
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭KenSwee


    I'm always interested in the nations performances and news below tier 1 so thought I'd put this thread up.

    This is cool site for Europe's very own Tri Nations tournament; Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
    I noticed that Norway has an Irishman, Neil Ryan, playing for them.

    http://www.clashofthevikings.com/


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    #2
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,603 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    I follow Cyprus rugby on Twitter, they post full vids of all of their games online which is pretty sweet.


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    #3
    Taco Corp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭Taco Corp


    European Nations Cup on Setanta Ireland today

    All three of today's games are live

    http://www.irb.com/nationscup/fixturesresults/index.html

    According to their TV listings, Setanta will also be showing some Pacific Nations Cup matches as well this weekend


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    #4
    funky penguin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    I've been following the Pacific Nations, rooting for Japan. Painstakingly close in their two games, but it's gone for them this year.

    I didn't realise until it started that it's hosted annually by a nation (at least I think it is). I'm pissed off that I didn't know sooner, I would have taken time off work/saved money and headed to Tokyo for a weekend.


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    #5
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Russia V Uruguay on Setanta right now. Fairly competitive.


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    #6
    decisions
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭decisions


    Does Emerging Italy = Italy A?


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    #7
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Yeah, it's Italy A.


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    #8
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    KenSwee wrote: »
    I'm always interested in the nations performances and news below tier 1 so thought I'd put this thread up.

    This is cool site for Europe's very own Tri Nations tournament; Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
    I noticed that Norway has an Irishman, Neil Ryan, playing for them.

    http://www.clashofthevikings.com/
    I was selected for Norway but missed out through an injury (which was actually my last ever game). Been one or two Irish there but mainly English, Aussie and Kiwi playing with Norwegians.


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    #9
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Wasn't there a bit of a documentary before the World Cup following some Irish lad who declared for Azerbaijan and played for them?


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    #10
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    JustinDee wrote: »
    I was selected for Norway but missed out through an injury (which was actually my last ever game). Been one or two Irish there but mainly English, Aussie and Kiwi playing with Norwegians.

    What standard would you say you were yourself Justin?

    Often wondered what it would take to play for an international side like that. Met some of the Maltese rugby team out when I was over there. Looked like fellas that enjoyed a few pints!


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    #11
    [Jackass]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    Once you go below sort of the top 15 - 20 in world rankings, you're really looking at low AIL standard after that.

    The lad who played out in Azerbijan or wherever it was was fairly useless by AIL / Irish standards, never played firsts or anything, so I'd imagine it's all pretty week.

    After all, it's all amature, but probably wouldn't have half as decent a set up as most AIL clubs in terms of coaching, player pool and finance etc.


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    #12
    wicklowwonder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭wicklowwonder


    Former Wicklow GAA player Barry O'Donovan played for Austria a few times. http://austriantimes.at/?id=8822


    He is back home now playing GAA, says in the article he hadn't played since school boy days. He was a quality GAA player, I think he use to fly home for championship etc.


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    #13
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    What standard would you say you were yourself Justin?

    Often wondered what it would take to play for an international side like that. Met some of the Maltese rugby team out when I was over there. Looked like fellas that enjoyed a few pints!
    Played McCorry Cup in 88 when it was u19 but left Ireland not long afterwards. Played club and regional rugby league in NSW Country divisions in Australia. By time I moved back to Ireland seven years ago I was 35 and done.
    There are some very handy players playing in lower tiered European sides who would get onto a 1A or 1B AIL side here. Mainly ex-pats from various countries just giving it a whirl while playing a code of rugby.


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    #14
    xplosive
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭xplosive


    "Once you go below sort of the top 15 - 20 in world rankings, you're really looking at low AIL standard after that"

    Definately higher than that. The likes of Russia, Germany, Poland, Spain, Uraguay, Portugal would be a better level than most AIL sides bar the top 3 or 4 of AIL Division 1.


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    #15
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,608 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    xplosive wrote: »
    The likes of Russia, Germany, Poland, Spain, Uraguay, Portugal would be a better level than most AIL sides bar the top 3 or 4 of AIL Division 1.

    don't understand why Russia arnt the equivalent of Italy - they have a proffesional league, they are genetically very strong and big , and is a massive wealthy country - never understood also why america are not stronger - i played there for a while , and they were a lot bigger than us , if a bit naive tactically, so many ex American footballers who were great atheletes


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    #16
    KenSwee
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭KenSwee


    In my opinion, Poland have been the most progressive European nation up the rankings. They have gone from ENC2C to ENC1B* in only 5 years.

    I visited their base in Warsaw about 6 years ago and was impressed that the plans they had then have nearly all come to fruition.

    They have a decent following in their homeland and combined with the recruitment of players of Polish decent based in the likes of France, along with a decent French coaching staff have all gone to give them a real improvement. They are also very cleaver in the fact that they play their home games in different parts of their country, thus allowing access to potential new fans.

    I can see them realistically qualifying for the world cup with in the next ten years.

    Their website is in English and you can check it out here.

    http://pzrugby.pl/?gtlang=en

    *European Nations Cup


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    #17
    KenSwee
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭KenSwee


    This is probably the most important site for those interested in T2 and below.

    http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/


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    #18
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    thebaz wrote: »
    don't understand why Russia arnt the equivalent of Italy - they have a proffesional league, they are genetically very strong and big , and is a massive wealthy country - never understood also why america are not stronger - i played there for a while , and they were a lot bigger than us , if a bit naive tactically, so many ex American footballers who were great atheletes
    They are not professional. Semi-professional at best. Paying a player to play a match doesn't make it a professional scenario. Many players are part-timers or amateurs dividing time between main jobs and playing for a match fee. Players being paid a match fee isn't unusual to club rugby in any of the six nations, for example. I know Spanish players who get paid per match but work regular jobs.


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    #19
    KenSwee
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭KenSwee


    Given that there are a few posters here who have had involvement with emerging rugby nations, what is the general consensus about the involvement of foreign players representing nations other then their own?

    Is it a good thing or bad thing?
    Should there be less recruitment and more focus on local talent.
    Does the use of foreign imports in national sides boost performance and skill levels with emerging nations?

    Tim Visser makes his 'Scotland' début on Saturday against Fiji and nobody doubts that he would be a tremendous asset to Holland. It's amazing to think that if the Dutch could find another 5 or 6 players across the field, then they would be a far better proposition.
    Nobody can fault his decision to play; He wants to play at the highest level but could their be a compromise in the sense that he could also represent Holland in some form as well?
    Unlikely given the professional demands nowadays I suppose.


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    #20
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    KenSwee wrote: »
    Given that there are a few posters here who have had involvement with emerging rugby nations, what is the general consensus about the involvement of foreign players representing nations other then their own?

    Is it a good thing or bad thing?
    Should there be less recruitment and more focus on local talent.
    Does the use of foreign imports in national sides boost performance and skill levels with emerging nations?
    It is a good thing. The alternative is the game dying on its keyster.
    They're not imported players. They are players who qualify via residency and citizenship. Entirely different scenario.

    Example of Norway: The one big obstacle for rugby union's development in Norway is not really soccer (where premier league supercedes any indigenous leagues) or any other sport. Its not even the climate. It is the mollycoddling 'Soccer Mom'.
    For the main part, parents are not wanting their kids playing full-contact sports such as rugby union. Bringing the sport through schools is tough enough work as it is.
    This is why Ice Hockey in Norway is suffering so much over the past decade.


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    #21
    funky penguin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    That's also a massive obstacle for Japan. Most Junior High Schools here won't allow rugby as it's too dangerous, so most kids have their first interaction in High School, aged 15/16. Some private schools start early (hohoho!), and lately I've noticed a couple of kids telling me they've joined an outside club. That's a tough ask in itself, as Junior High kids here are expected to join an after school club and participate until about 6/7 pm. So to have rugby training on top of that three days a week......


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    #22
    KenSwee
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭KenSwee


    The official rankings page on the IRB website.

    http://www.irb.com/rankings/full.html


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    #23
    KenSwee
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭KenSwee


    JustinDee wrote: »
    They're not imported players. They are players who qualify via residency and citizenship. Entirely different scenario..

    Bad choice of word. I agree they are residency players.


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    #24
    KenSwee
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭KenSwee


    funky penguin wrote: »
    That's also a massive obstacle for Japan. Most Junior High Schools here won't allow rugby as it's too dangerous, so most kids have their first interaction in High School, aged 15/16. Some private schools start early (hohoho!), and lately I've noticed a couple of kids telling me they've joined an outside club. That's a tough ask in itself, as Junior High kids here are expected to join an after school club and participate until about 6/7 pm. So to have rugby training on top of that three days a week......

    I've seen some ideas trying to address problems like size and weight in Asian countries such as the 80-80 tournaments (no player can weigh more then 80kgs) but I think it was a bit pie in the sky and I'm not sure if it's the right road for rugby to go down in those countries.


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    #25
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    In the Japanese High School league system I'm pretty sure that all players must wear a scrum cap. Interesting concept. I know scrum caps don't stop concussion but they do take the sting out of knocks.


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    #26
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    I go to Lanzarote a few times a year and coach their rugby team each trip. There are seven teams playing in the Canaries league and cup, including two university sides.
    The Lanza team has been steered by an ex-pat from N.Ireland for some years now and they have done a massive job. Senior Men, u19, minis and now a Women's side all hitting the field. Main playerbase source is of locals and mainland Spanish (some having played rep Spanish level) who have taken to the game with gusto. A few Argies and British in addition.
    Great to see.
    Penned this article a few years back following a trip over and meeting Los Conejeros for the first time
    http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/7192.php


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    #27
    funky penguin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    Teferi wrote: »
    In the Japanese High School league system I'm pretty sure that all players must wear a scrum cap. Interesting concept. I know scrum caps don't stop concussion but they do take the sting out of knocks.

    From what I've seen, it's a half truth. Over half the pack in the High School I occasionally visit wear caps, but it's not compulsory (in this specific High School anyway, it could differ radically in a different HS or prefecture).

    One other thing I forgot to mention is the casual sportsman/woman nature of Japan. Many of the players in the club I'm in have absolutely no idea about rugby outside the games we play, not even Japan itself. The Pacific Nations may as well not exist, let alone the World Cup. It's not just in rugby. In other sports*, people just play for the casual fun and exercise. Once the practice session or game is over, rugby may never feature in their lives again until the squad meets again. It's really odd (for me) and something that took a long time to wrap my head around, especially since I love talking about huge games that happened on the weekend or what have you.

    *Soccer is perhaps the only exception.


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    #28
    funky penguin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    KenSwee wrote: »
    I've seen some ideas trying to address problems like size and weight in Asian countries such as the 80-80 tournaments (no player can weigh more then 80kgs) but I think it was a bit pie in the sky and I'm not sure if it's the right road for rugby to go down in those countries.

    I agree. Also, the idea of Japanese people all being small and squat is also very misleading I've found. There's a 14 year old kid I teach that is ridiculously tall for his age (taller than me at my 183cm), and quite built. But he plays basketball, and has done so for the past 7 years of his life. This is one of the major hurdles rugby has to overcome in Japan - it's a small fish in a big pond of various sports Japanese kids play in school. To the system's credit, the variety is excellent, but rugby just can't compete with basketball, volleyball (!), tennis, soccer and of course....baseball.


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    #29
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    funky penguin wrote: »
    From what I've seen, it's a half truth. Over half the pack in the High School I occasionally visit wear caps, but it's not compulsory (in this specific High School anyway, it could differ radically in a different HS or prefecture).

    Ah fair enough, my comment was based upon this video



    Which I saw on a different rugby forum and someone commented about how scrum caps were compulsory in Japanese schools.


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    #30
    KenSwee
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭KenSwee


    funky penguin wrote: »
    I agree. Also, the idea of Japanese people all being small and squat is also very misleading I've found. There's a 14 year old kid I teach that is ridiculously tall for his age (taller than me at my 183cm), and quite built. But he plays basketball, and has done so for the past 7 years of his life. This is one of the major hurdles rugby has to overcome in Japan - it's a small fish in a big pond of various sports Japanese kids play in school. To the system's credit, the variety is excellent, but rugby just can't compete with basketball, volleyball (!), tennis, soccer and of course....baseball.

    But it is professional though isn't it?
    If so, how is it compared to say the Super 15 in terms of pay packet?
    I know Shane Williams has done a u turn and is heading there so there must be some decent money?


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    #31
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Teferi wrote: »
    Wasn't there a bit of a documentary before the World Cup following some Irish lad who declared for Azerbaijan and played for them?


    John O'Sullivan used to run a little column of rugby snippets in the Irish Times in which people would write in and tell him about Irish mates of theirs who played for out of the way places like Israel, Andorra and Luxembourg.

    I even did it myself once ;)

    (Wrote in to tell them about a mate who played international rugby that is)

    Most of the really small places in the world depend heavily on passing trade. Which is fair enough. It's still largely an amateur game after all and is spread by the virus of people actually wanting to play.


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