Abuse of cycle to work scheme

Raiser · 01-05-2012 10:41pm #1

I'm sure some tiny proportion of people entered into this in good faith etc. and actually cycle to work as intended by the morons of the green party.....

- But anyone I've ever met or directly heard of who signed up for it drives to work (often ridiculous distances away making cycling never feasable), including seemingly the sad greens themselves

Heard recently that Done Deal and other advert websites have shedloads of these bikes for sale for €500-1000 making it nice little earner for smart gobshítes out there straight from the poor honest PAYE workers pocket. A quick glance seems to bear this out - ie. adverts like "brand new bike, 1 week old, my left leg fell off bargain at €750......"

Why hasn't this idiotic idea been axed yet? Theres a load of new shops open even on the strenght of this making the owners filthy rich on this absurd scheme (don't talk about job creation, its just 1 man and his new BMW)

- We can't afford the continue to indulge the Greens brain farts so long after they were run out of public life surely?

HeidiHeidi · 01-05-2012 10:48pm

I'm one of your "tiny proportion" who actually uses my bike for commuting (weather permitting

).

Most of the people I know who had acquired bikes under this scheme, basically half price, have got them for racing/triathlon/adventure-race purposes, and they'll never be seen locked up outside work.

I'm as sceptical as the next person (or you) about the whole thing - but the story I heard was that we (Ireland) have signed up to some deal to have so many people commuting to work using bikes instead of cars - so we're tied into the whole BTW thing and it can't be done away with, even though it's patently and obviously being abused.

No idea if that's right or wrong, but that's what I heard.....

Icepick · 01-05-2012 10:50pm

Raiser wrote: »

making it nice little earner for smart gobshítes out there straight from the poor honest PAYE workers pocket.

Yes, the person who actually bought the bike.

Mongfinder General · 01-05-2012 10:54pm

Raiser wrote: »

I'm sure some tiny proportion of people entered into this in good faith etc. and actually cycle to work as intended by the morons of the green party.....

- But anyone I've ever met or directly heard of who signed up for it drives to work (often ridiculous distances away making cycling never feasable), including seemingly the sad greens themselves

Heard recently that Done Deal and other advert websites have shedloads of these bikes for sale for €500-1000 making it nice little earner for smart gobshítes out there straight from the poor honest PAYE workers pocket. A quick glance seems to bear this out - ie. adverts like "brand new bike, 1 week old, my left leg fell off bargain at €750......"

Why hasn't this idiotic idea been axed yet? Theres a load of new shops open even on the strenght of this making the owners filthy rich on this absurd scheme (don't talk about job creation, its just 1 man and his new BMW)

- We can't afford the continue to indulge the Greens brain farts so long after they were run out of public life surely?

Long may it continue. It's one of the few tax reliefs that can be manipulated by those paying 60 odd % on everything they earn above €33k. Most of the people exploiting this are probably doing it to make their next mortgage payment or whatever ridiculous tax we get hit with next. These are the very people being battered just to pay for everything else in this country.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'll fill out the forms in work in the morning. Should be at least a 2 or 3 tonne in this for me.

K-9 · 01-05-2012 11:52pm

Raiser wrote: »

I'm sure some tiny proportion of people entered into this in good faith etc. and actually cycle to work as intended by the morons of the green party.....

- But anyone I've ever met or directly heard of who signed up for it drives to work (often ridiculous distances away making cycling never feasable), including seemingly the sad greens themselves

Heard recently that Done Deal and other advert websites have shedloads of these bikes for sale for €500-1000 making it nice little earner for smart gobshítes out there straight from the poor honest PAYE workers pocket. A quick glance seems to bear this out - ie. adverts like "brand new bike, 1 week old, my left leg fell off bargain at €750......"

Why hasn't this idiotic idea been axed yet? Theres a load of new shops open even on the strenght of this making the owners filthy rich on this absurd scheme (don't talk about job creation, its just 1 man and his new BMW)

- We can't afford the continue to indulge the Greens brain farts so long after they were run out of public life surely?

I'd assume these bikes are easily identifiable on donedeal, model or make, that type of thing.

Tax reliefs tend to get abused, I doubt there is any tax relief that isn't manipulated to some degree.

Thread is very close to "I heard down my pub" levels of discussion and has a short shelf life. "Greens brain farts" remarks don't help.

cee_jay · 02-05-2012 12:25am

K-9 wrote: »

I'd assume these bikes are easily identifiable on donedeal, model or make, that type of thing.

[/b]

I don't think they are. It is up to each individual person to choose the bike and equipment they want/need up to the agreed limit. So this seems like an anecdotal musing that the bikes seen on done deal are from the Bike to Work Scheme.

Jonny7 · 02-05-2012 2:03am

A 750 euro bicycle is not needed to get in and out to work.

Half that is more than enough.

stoneill · 02-05-2012 2:08am

I think it's a great scheme - I did the BTW work thing, now I have an option to cycle when weather permits, plus it's used for leisure.
I can't see very many people getting extremely rich from it, why would you buy a bike on done deal for €800 when you can have the same for €400 using the scheme?

Cookie_Monster · 02-05-2012 3:22am

Jonny7 wrote: »

A 750 euro bicycle is not needed to get in and out to work.
Half that is more than enough.

:rolleyes:
a 5k car isn't needed, a 1k one is enough. better yet just walk, it's free. etc. who are you to tell people how much their bike should cost, and what they're allowed use it for?

750 for a decent bike that'll last and not fall apart straight away is a fair price. If you want to go a bit further and use it for exercise at the weekends and buy the allowable gear (lights, lock, a few peices of comfortable kit) you're well over 1200 for anything decent.

It's a great scheme and should be used and lauded for trying to get the population fitter and healtheir. But I do think it's massivly abused by people who just want a non commuting bike for less. the real problem is most workplaces don't give a shite about people cycling and won't provide secure storage or shower facilities but will provide plenty of car parks for those looking to drive.

opti0nal · 02-05-2012 7:24am

Raiser wrote: »

I'm sure some tiny proportion of people entered into this in good faith etc. and actually cycle to work as intended by the morons of the green party.....Heard recently that Done Deal and other advert websites have shedloads of these bikes for sale for €500-1000 making it nice little earner for smart gobshítes ...We can't afford the continue to indulge the Greens brain farts so long after they were run out of public life surely?

Have you considered that maybe those bikes are being sold by people who've lost their jobs and have no work to cycle to?

Much like cars, bikes lose much of their value once they're walked out of the shop, and people who behave as you imagine would be risking prosecution for the sake of a few hundred euro profit.

Maybe find some other way of working through your hatred of the Greens. This is the wrong vehicle for you, I think.

ednwireland · 02-05-2012 8:19am

i bought a bike on it and i cycle to work on it most days

in fact here it is on my cycle home (no really that is on one of my routes home)

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/5461/197794.jpg

Raiser · 02-05-2012 9:12am

cee_jay wrote: »

I don't think they are. It is up to each individual person to choose the bike and equipment they want/need up to the agreed limit. So this seems like an anecdotal musing that the bikes seen on done deal are from the Bike to Work Scheme.

And be damn sure they do, apparently theres a well known bike shop in limerick where they are happy to throw in a couple of kids bikes too on a nod and a wink - sure why be short of the absurdly high limit? Gotta hit your targets $

Jonny7 wrote: »

A 750 euro bicycle is not needed to get in and out to work.

Half that is more than enough.

What sort of a bike would ya get for a mere €375 though, would it still be of carbon fibre construction with a gold plated chainset? I'd be cycling from Blackrock and have some pedestrian crossings and 6 sets of traffic lights to deal with, and a very tricky roundabout - oh and I'm fairly sure theres a slope

* Remember though the actual limit is €1,000 with BIK kicking in for anything in excess of that.....

stoneill wrote: »

I think it's a great scheme - I did the BTW work thing, now I have an option to cycle when weather permits, plus it's used for leisure.
I can't see very many people getting extremely rich from it, why would you buy a bike on done deal for €800 when you can have the same for €400 using the scheme?

I'd assume the vendors are taking advantage of peoples good nature as well as the State/taypayer.

Certainly its a crap scheme in any instance where its being abused and used to buy very expensive bikes for racing, triathlons or weekend mountain biking.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

:rolleyes:
a 5k car isn't needed, a 1k one is enough. better yet just walk, it's free. etc. who are you to tell people how much their bike should cost, and what they're allowed use it for?

750 for a decent bike that'll last and not fall apart straight away is a fair price. If you want to go a bit further and use it for exercise at the weekends and buy the allowable gear (lights, lock, a few peices of comfortable kit) you're well over 1200 for anything decent.

It's a great scheme and should be used and lauded for trying to get the population fitter and healtheir. But I do think it's massivly abused by people who just want a non commuting bike for less. the real problem is most workplaces don't give a shite about people cycling and won't provide secure storage or shower facilities but will provide plenty of car parks for those looking to drive.

Who are you to tell us we've no say as a public on a publically funded horseshít scheme?

I don't care if you want to spend €1,200 on a push bike because your notions of design, quality and performance are somehow wrapped up in an odd materialistic gauge where price paid is a substitute for common sense.

You should go to some European city such as Berlin or Amsterdam and watch in awe as thousands of people glide past you effortlessly on perfectly adequate bikes that obviously cost a fraction of what your skewed sense of entitlement leads you to believe to be acceptable.

Perhaps you're an unlucky exception seeing that obviously your workplace is located on the far side of the Alps or something?

optional wrote: »

Have you considered that maybe those bikes are being sold by people who've lost their jobs and have no work to cycle to?

Much like cars, bikes lose much of their value once they're walked out of the shop, and people who behave as you imagine would be risking prosecution for the sake of a few hundred euro profit.

Maybe find some other way of working through your hatred of the Greens. This is the wrong vehicle for you, I think.

Clutch at straws much? Yes I'm sure thats an accurate portrayal, poor innocent workers buying bikes for a grand cause they woke up some morning feeling like Lance Feckin' Armstrong and then they suddenly lose their jobs and have to sell it real quick in order to survive.

ednwireland wrote: »

i bought a bike on it and icycle to work on it most days

in fact here it is on my cycle home (no really that is on one of my routes home)

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/5461/197794.jpg

Heres a typical example of rampant abuse - This man bought himself an iCycle

Jonny7 · 02-05-2012 9:49am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

:rolleyes:
a 5k car isn't needed, a 1k one is enough. better yet just walk, it's free. etc. who are you to tell people how much their bike should cost, and what they're allowed use it for?

750 for a decent bike that'll last and not fall apart straight away is a fair price. If you want to go a bit further and use it for exercise at the weekends and buy the allowable gear (lights, lock, a few peices of comfortable kit) you're well over 1200 for anything decent.

It's a great scheme and should be used and lauded for trying to get the population fitter and healtheir. But I do think it's massivly abused by people who just want a non commuting bike for less. the real problem is most workplaces don't give a shite about people cycling and won't provide secure storage or shower facilities but will provide plenty of car parks for those looking to drive.

Poppycock! Its cycling to and from work, not Mammoth mountain.

350 euros is reasonable.

Nwm2 · 02-05-2012 9:56am

Is it true that the brother of one of the top Green ministers owns a bike shop, or is that just urban legend?

There is no doubt that it is a massively abused scheme. My company has processed over 200 bike invoices, and there is only a handful of bikes parked outside the front any day.

seamus · 02-05-2012 10:09am

Jonny7 wrote: »

Poppycock! Its cycling to and from work, not Mammoth mountain.

350 euros is reasonable.

Would you buy a 1 litre fiat punto to drive 200km a day to work?
A cheaper bike is fine for short distance. If someone is commuting 10km+ every day, then the difference between a cheaper bike and another few hundred euro becomes very apparent.

It's all a bit of a non-issue really. Research shows that every km which someone cycles to work instead of driving or bussing actually saves the state money, from things as varied as road maintenance and carbon taxes, to long-term things like health spending and community projects.

From what I can tell, the vast majority of people who bought a bike on this scheme did so with the intention of riding the bike to work. A small minority would go to the trouble of signing up to it, only to sell the bike on.

The IBBA published a report last year showing a fairly extensive list of benefits that the B2W scheme has brought to the economy.
http://ibba.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/IBBA_Report.pdf

Not least that each cycling trip to work actually earns the state €0.70 (versus a cost to the state for bus, LUAS or driving commuters), but that it also created 617 jobs and generated €20m in revenue for the state.

Now, there's a fair argument that the report above has biase, but I'll take their cited figures and shown calculations far above the hearsay and anti-cyclist rhetoric shown the OP.

gizmo555 · 02-05-2012 10:41am

The problem is with the way the scheme was designed. While the bikes must be used for commuting to be eligible for the tax relief, there is no way of enforcing this requirement. The Revenue leaflet says this:

The bicycle/safety equipment must be used by the employee or director mainly for qualifying journeys. Qualifying journeys means the whole or part (e.g. between home and train station) of a journey between the employee’s or director’s home and normal place of work, or between his or her normal place of work and another place of work.

but . . .

There is no obligation on an employer to keep a record of the usage of the bicycle/safety equipment by an employee or director. However, the employer should obtain a signed statement from the employee or director that the bicycle/safety equipment will be for his or her own use and will be used mainly for qualifying journeys.

All employees have to do is to sign the statements, then once they have the bikes simply say they have changed their mind and find for whatever reason cycling to work doesn't suit them after all.

As for "hearsay", my recent first hand experience buying a bike for my child was the shopkeeper insisting that I was entitled to the relief even though I explained that I work from a home office. I suppose I could do a lap of the house every morning before sitting down at my desk to qualify . . .

Stark · 02-05-2012 10:49am

Raiser wrote: »

Heard recently that Done Deal and other advert websites have shedloads of these bikes for sale for €500-1000 making it nice little earner for smart gobshítes out there straight from the poor honest PAYE workers pocket. A quick glance seems to bear this out - ie. adverts like "brand new bike, 1 week old, my left leg fell off bargain at €750......"

If it's on Scumdeal, chances are it was stolen from someone who bought it for cycling to work.

Gurgle · 02-05-2012 10:55am

The more people have a bike the more likely they are to use it and get some exercise every now and then.

Its for a bike + accessories of value up to €1k once every 5 years.
Taking it for the maximum, you'll save 51% of that cost, €510.

Fromhttp://www.bikescheme.ie/how-claim

The Government is trying to encourage commuters to give up the car for shorter journeys.

I think the fault with the scheme was calling it 'bike to work' instead of 'get some exercise before your heart bursts'.

Just this once, its a government health and environment initiative that actually doesn't involve a punitive tax. The only success of the greens in government.

Chips Lovell · 02-05-2012 11:11am

Bikes lose a massive amount of their value the minute you wheel them out of the store, so you'd be reliant on finding some idiot who'd be willing to pay nearer full whack. TBH, I've yet to hear of anyone using this as a money making scheme. It seems like a lot of trouble to go to for minimal and unguaranteed gains.

€700 is about the minimum I'd spend on a road bike. Below that and you're straying into the territory of paying more in maintenance than you would have on a better bike.

Kinski · 02-05-2012 11:18am

ednwireland wrote: »

i bought a bike on it and icycle to work on it most days

I see Apple are getting into the whole bike area now...;) Could sure go for an iCycle myself.

And I'd be delighted if more people in Dublin would cycle to work - this all sounds just a bit moany to me.

femur61 · 02-05-2012 11:36am

Yes I know people who have abused the system. One bought a ride on mower with the money, and how he did that is the sop which sells bikes happens to sell lawn mowers as well. The other bought a €600 bike and they got half the money back, but did he need such an expensive bike.

Gurgle · 02-05-2012 11:44am

femur61 wrote: »

Yes I know people who have abused the system. One bought a ride on mower with the money, and how he did that is the sop which sells bikes happens to sell lawn mowers as well.

That's not abusing the system, that's fraud.

femur61 wrote: »

The other bought a €600 bike and they got half the money back, but did he need such an expensive bike.

He spent barely over half the limit, but you call it abuse because you don't approve?

Permabear · 02-05-2012 11:55am

This post has been deleted.

seamus · 02-05-2012 12:04pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Citation please.

I got wet on my cycle home yesterday. Third time this year I've needed to wear a jacket on the commute to avoid getting wet. No, really. I had one morning with some light snow late last year and practically no ice most mornings this winter.

The "it's always raining and it's too cold" excuse is just that - an excuse. It's a complete fallacy that Ireland gets too much rain. Amsterdam gets 10% more rainfall than Dublin.

It's one of the most commonly trotted out excuses in this country, but in reality it's completely baseless.

AngryLips · 02-05-2012 12:21pm

Well the scheme works and the figures on the number of people cycling during rush hour between the canals would support that. To say that the scheme doesn't work and is open to fraud ignores the fact that the same point could be made about any of the low value tax credits on offer (union membership, rent relief etc). This would have been costed when the scheme was designed as it was for all the other unverified tax credits.

Stark · 02-05-2012 12:22pm

seamus wrote: »

Citation please.

I got wet on my cycle home yesterday. Third time this year I've needed to wear a jacket on the commute to avoid getting wet. No, really. I had one morning with some light snow late last year and practically no ice most mornings this winter.

Same here, cycle most days and have probably encountered rain only 2/3 times this year. It rains more often than that (had a run of miserable evenings over the past few weeks) but doesn't always rain during the commuting window.

antoobrien · 02-05-2012 12:27pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I have to disagree with you there. I've cycled & walked to work in Dublin for years, you don't get wet nearly as often as people make out. I think I needed to catch a bus/dart because of rain maybe a dozen times last winter.

Ice and snow is a problem, when it happens but that's so rare as to be laughable as an excuse.

No the biggest problem with cycling in Ireland is actually cyclists themselves. They cause so many problems for themselves it's unreal. From not paying attention to what they're at, not signaling, no lights/reflective gear, improperly maintained equipment (brakes in particular), inability to select the correct gear when approaching a junction (foolishly thinking it's the the clutch in a car), unwillingness to obey the rules of the road, blaming others for cycling into the side of cars that are turning (as opposed to the car turning into the bike) .......I could go on all day listing the sheer stupidity of cyclists that I've witnessed over the years.

It's no wonder people won't cycle when they witness that kind of crap on a regular basis.

Tipp Man · 02-05-2012 12:29pm

What a ridiculous opening post

It is obvious that the number of cyclists in Dublin has increased dramatically since the scheme was introduced.

I don't spend much time in Dublin now but this increase is blatantly obvious to me - especially on a fine day - my sister only last week commented on how many cyclists there are in the city

and with the huge levels of tax on petrol/diesel the number of cyclists is only going to increase

With regards to weather - bear in mind that there are significantly more rainy and wet days along the western seaboard than the are along the eastern seaboard. IMO Dublin has a lot less wet days than Limerick for example

Permabear · 02-05-2012 12:31pm

This post has been deleted.

seamus · 02-05-2012 12:43pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Most of the year, it rains constantly

Well, good for you; thankfully, we had an exceptionally mild winter this year. How did you fare during the winters of 2009-10 and 2010-11?

2010/11 was fun, but definitely for the more hardy cyclist. But then 2010/11 doesn't really prove any point since most people were incapable of driving during that weather as well.
I don't recall the winter of 2009/10. It obviously didn't inconvenience me in any serious way to make it memorable. I remember it snowed on New Year's Eve. That was pretty cool.

Amsterdam is also consistently ranked as one of the most bike-friendly cities in the world. Dublin is not.

True, but that wasn't the point. Amsterdam gets more rain than Dublin, but sees an immeasurable difference in cycling rates.

Therefore the weather is inconsequential in relation to cycling rates, it's a lazy red herring.

Gumbi · 02-05-2012 12:45pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

:rolleyes:
a 5k car isn't needed, a 1k one is enough. better yet just walk, it's free. etc. who are you to tell people how much their bike should cost, and what they're allowed use it for?

750 for a decent bike that'll last and not fall apart straight away is a fair price. If you want to go a bit further and use it for exercise at the weekends and buy the allowable gear (lights, lock, a few peices of comfortable kit) you're well over 1200 for anything decent.

It's a great scheme and should be used and lauded for trying to get the population fitter and healtheir. But I do think it's massivly abused by people who just want a non commuting bike for less. the real problem is most workplaces don't give a shite about people cycling and won't provide secure storage or shower facilities but will provide plenty of car parks for those looking to drive.

I've cycled to college for the past year (5 miles) on a 200 euro bike, bought last summer. I've only put 60 euro into it for a pair of good tyres. Lots of people have this or less to work.

Anyway, to address your comment. The analogy is not accurate as the government is not supporting your buying your car. One should not be able to buy a luxury bike (I've seen people buy 900 plus euro bikes simply because of the discount) simply to go in and out to work.

Abuse of cycle to work scheme

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