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Abortion

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    #602
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    smash wrote: »
    Your sister and friends should have been more responsible then shouldn't they :rolleyes:


    Yet is probably still the most common form of contraception isn't it.
    True! but the friend was married and my sister in longterm relationship. and they did the resposible thing and had their babies.


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    #603
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Lorraine! Over here! Look at me!

    Why does the child's right to life vanish when the mother's life is in jeopardy?

    Is there a reason or is it simply what you believe to be fair?[/QUOTE

    sorry was on lunch here in work! ok my feeling is life is scared right. and if a mothers life is in serious jeprody her life precedes the life of the babies life if this is her wish. she can also choose to go ahead with the pregnancy up to her. Its a highly emotional issue but i would not sentence a woman to death and deny her an abortion. however i have no sympoathy for women who sleep with the wrong man get pregnant then run to England.
    These are extremely rare cases anyway! we arnt talking 1 a day here or even in terms of weeks. prob one in million chance. You can back me into as many corners as you wish. i only agree with abortion in order to save a life, its a necessary eveil if the child is lost in the process.
    Abortion because sally forgot her pill, or it failed etc is wrong in my book.
    And there are grey areas , as in serious medical risk to the mother but thank fully these instances are rare.
    Also if a child is dying inside or dead, or will not survive birth then i would agree with abortion if you want it. However the medical profession will tell you it is better to have the child and say goodbye than to have an abortion. I would not opt for this myself as earlier posted my aunt was told her child would not survive and the child is now 4.


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    #604
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    True! but the friend was married and my sister in longterm relationship.
    I fail to see what this has to do with anything
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    and they did the resposible thing and had their babies.
    It's nothing to do with responsibility, it was their choice because they decided it wasn't such a bad thing to happen. To a lot of women it is a bad thing.


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    #605
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    smash wrote: »
    I'm guessing the gender based termination will only be carried out by doctors with certain beliefs based on ethnic background. A lot of Asians and Indians don't like girls, I know that.

    But that's what I'm getting at. If you believe the foetus has no automatic right to life, then what difference does it make why a woman chooses to have an abortion. Why would somebody say 'well based on gender, thats a no-no,' ..... but for reason x, yes no problem. Either the right to choose is 100% the mother's or it isn't.. I don't see why they'd feel the circumstances of the decision are an issue...

    Now this becomes of particular relevance when that person turns around and tries to accuse the general pro-lifer of hypocrisy if they agree with abortion say in a case of rape, but not in another case... there they argue that circumstances of conception are irrelevant because the foetus has an automatic right or it doesn't.

    Can you see what I'm getting at?


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    #606
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    smash wrote: »
    I fail to see what this has to do with anything


    It's nothing to do with responsibility, it was their choice because they decided it wasn't such a bad thing to happen. To a lot of women it is a bad thing.
    smash my point is , it should not be their choice. the baby has a right to life, it didnt ask to be concieved. So called responsible adults concieved this baby, then one decided hey this is inconvenient for me i might struggle financially, so i will abort it. abort my childrens sibling, abort all that potential. Just think its very sad people cannot make smarter decisions about who they hop into bed with.


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    #607
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    ok my feeling is life is scared right. and if a mothers life is in serious jeprody her life precedes the life of the babies life if this is her wish. she can also choose to go ahead with the pregnancy up to her. Its a highly emotional issue but i would not sentence a woman to death and deny her an abortion.

    ...

    i only agree with abortion in order to save a life, its a necessary eveil if the child is lost in the process.

    But you are allowing her to take a life in order to save her own.

    You are jumping between "unborn children have as much right to life as anyone else" to "unborn children do not have a right to life if the mother's life is at risk".

    This isn't consistent. You provide a situation for when the child loses it's right to life.

    My question is, why is the mother's life more valuable?


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    #608
    up for anything
    Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭up for anything


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    smash my point is , it should not be their choice. the baby has a right to life, it didnt ask to be concieved. So called responsible adults concieved this baby, then one decided hey this is inconvenient for me i might struggle financially, so i will abort it. abort my childrens sibling, abort all that potential. Just think its very sad people cannot make smarter decisions about who they hop into bed with.

    Never say never. There are circumstances that might come up in the future that will take you to the UK to abort a pregnancy. You can never know.


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    #609
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Just think its very sad people cannot make smarter decisions about who they hop into bed with.

    Yeah, damn those sluts having all that sex.
    The sluts.


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    #610
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    prinz, I see what you're getting at. But sure even you say yourself it's illegal in the UK and it's for good reason. Gender based terminations should be illegal in my mind because the couple/woman set out to have a baby and that's what they got. It's not a new car purchase, they purposely set out to have a child! Sex can not be pre determined before having sex so it's right that sex should not be considered after falling pregnant.

    If they wanted a boy, they can take their chances and live with a girl or the adopt.


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    #611
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    smash my point is , it should not be their choice. the baby has a right to life, it didnt ask to be concieved.
    They didn't ask for it to be conceived either.
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    So called responsible adults concieved this baby, then one decided hey this is inconvenient for me i might struggle financially, so i will abort it.
    They didn't decide to conceive it.
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    abort my childrens sibling, abort all that potential. Just think its very sad people cannot make smarter decisions about who they hop into bed with.
    That's complete nonsense.


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    #612
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    Seachmall wrote: »
    But you are allowing her to take a life in order to save her own.

    You are jumping between "unborn children have as much right to life as anyone else" to "unborn children do not have a right to life if the mother's life is at risk".

    This isn't consistent. You provide a situation for when the child loses it's right to life.

    My question is, why is the mother's life more valuable?
    you will just have to accept that most people agree abortion ok in extreme medical conditons. and not ok as the norm. Nothing wrong with that opinion. your trying to get me to say a woman shud die, so you can attack me. but i wont cos i believe in these rare cases the mothers life is the most urgent.
    Your in the minority cos if we have a referendum here your yes vote will loose.


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    #613
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    up for anything wrote: »
    Never say never. There are circumstances that might come up in the future that will take you to the UK to abort a pregnancy. You can never know.
    yes i can no. i have my own set of morals and im old enough now to know nothing would shake them. Not even if i was raped would i have an abortion.


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    #614
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Your in th eminority cos if we have a referendum here your yes vote will loose.
    I think people have moved on enough, especially younger generations, that a yes vote would pass to be honest.
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    yes i can no. i have my own set of morals and im old enough now to know nothing would shake them. Not even if i was raped would i have an abortion.
    Have you ever taken the morning after pill?


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    #615
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    smash wrote: »
    prinz, I see what you're getting at. But sure even you say yourself it's illegal in the UK and it's for good reason. Gender based terminations should be illegal in my mind because the couple/woman set out to have a baby and that's what they got. It's not a new car purchase, they purposely set out to have a child! Sex can not be pre determined before having sex so it's right that sex should not be considered after falling pregnant.

    If they wanted a boy, they can take their chances and live with a girl or the adopt.
    but if you legalise abortion how can you be sure couples wont go in and lie and have a gender based abortion


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    #616
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    but if you legalise abortion how can you be sure couples wont go in and lie and have a gender based abortion

    Well you could guess based on the term at which they wish to terminate. How many weeks before you can find out the sex?


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    #617
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    smash wrote: »
    I think people have moved on enough, especially younger generations, that a yes vote would pass to be honest.


    Have you ever taken the morning after pill?
    irrelavant but no actually i havent taken it. why?


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    #618
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with that opinion.
    There is something wrong with that opinion; it's logically inconsistent.
    your trying to get me to say a woman shud die, so you can attack me. but i wont cos i believe in these rare cases the mothers life is the most urgent.

    No. I'm trying to get you to say
    in these rare cases the mothers life is the most urgent

    In other words, when push comes to shove the mother has a greater right to life than the child. So the child does not have an equal right to life as the mother.

    If "right to life" is not absolute it is not an argument.


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    #619
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    smash wrote: »
    I think people have moved on enough, especially younger generations, that a yes vote would pass to be honest.


    Have you ever taken the morning after pill?
    really was a motion about abortion not just smashed in the dail last week?
    i think your dreaming to be honest, most young liberals here are too damn lazy to even go to the polls or register:D


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    #620
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    smash wrote: »
    prinz, I see what you're getting at. But sure even you say yourself it's illegal in the UK and it's for good reason. Gender based terminations should be illegal in my mind because the couple/woman set out to have a baby and that's what they got. It's not a new car purchase, they purposely set out to have a child! Sex can not be pre determined before having sex so it's right that sex should not be considered after falling pregnant..

    Lack of conception in the vast majority of cases can not be pre-determined conclusively before having sex, as has been pointed out repeatedly on this thread, so why is it right that abortion can be considered after becoming pregnant?

    You have sex you roll the dice. If you get pregnant - abortion is always an option to choose... you get pregnant but not the gender you want - boo for abortion. :confused:
    smash wrote: »
    If they wanted a boy, they can take their chances and live with a girl or the adopt. ..

    ..and the pro-lifer would say if you have sex, you take your chances and you can live with the child or adopt/foster whatever.

    I just don't understand why someone body would scoff at somebody saying abortion is ok in cases of rape, but not in consensual sex cases... and then continue on to themselves say abortion is ok in this case, but should be illegal in that...


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    #621
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    Seachmall wrote: »
    If "right to life" is not absolute it is not an argument.

    according to you


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    #622
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    according to you

    No. According to logic.

    You can not use "absolute right to life" as an argument and then concede it's not a right applicable to the child.


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    #623
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    irrelavant but no actually i havent taken it. why?
    Just wondering. I'd like to know your opinion on it anyway.
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    really was a motion about abortion not just smashed in the dail last week?
    The dail? seriously, you think the dail speak the opinion of the general public?
    prinz wrote: »
    You have sex you roll the dice. If you get pregnant - abortion is always an option to choose... you get pregnant but not the gender you want - boo for abortion. :confused:
    As I said previously, this attitude is usually based on ethnic background beliefs and I don't think that has any rights in an abortion case.


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    #624
    MisterEpicurus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭MisterEpicurus


    If retrospective abortion existed, then I'm guessing AH'er's here would happily abort certain people such as Bertie Ahern and Anders Breivik. But then again, it doesn't exist.

    Freedom of choice IMHO, none of anyone else's business to be perfectly honest. Either way, it's not a 'black & white' argument...there'll always be exceptions to the rule. So while I accept freedom of choice as the benchmark, it does have notable exceptions....same with self-defensive murder I guess.


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    #625
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    really was a motion about abortion not just smashed in the dail last week?

    It was but probably not for the reasons you think.


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    #626
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    prinz wrote: »
    I just don't understand why someone body would scoff at somebody saying abortion is ok in cases of rape, but not in consensual sex cases... and then continue on to themselves say abortion is ok in this case, but should be illegal in that...

    I already said I'm pro choice regarding abortion, but I still don't agree with it when it's gender based.


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    #627
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    smash wrote: »
    Just wondering. I'd like to know your opinion on it anyway.

    The dail? seriously, you think the dail speak the opinion of the general public?
    where they not voted in by the public!?
    yet you think your side would win a debate on abortion, where were you when fine gael and labour got voted in then?

    also morning after pill and the dail is off topic here. i havent used it ever , but i married kinda young at 26 by todays standards so i never got into a situation where i would need it.
    as you take it a day after sex is it? does it stop conception? sorry you have to enlighten me on it. its ok by me. prob a more religious issue


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    #628
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    smash wrote: »
    As I said previously, this attitude is usually based on ethnic background beliefs and I don't think that has any rights in an abortion case.

    So you're not nearly as pro-choice as you would have people believe... I thought the only people relevant were the people making the actual decision for themselves? Now you seem to be arguing that you should have a say in their decision making process.


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    #629
    LorraineMcFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭LorraineMcFly


    smash wrote: »
    I already said I'm pro choice regarding abortion, but I still don't agree with it when it's gender based.
    so would you vote no , on the choice of a gender based abortion ? so you would take away peoples choice then?


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    #630
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    where they not voted in by the public!?
    Parties were, individuals were not given their positions by the public.
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    yet you think your side would win a debate on abortion, where were you when fine gael and labour got voted in then?
    WTF are you talking about now?
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    also morning after pill and the dail is off topic here. i havent used it ever , but i married kinda young at 26 by todays standards so i never got into a situation where i would need it.
    Age of marriage has nothing to do with the morning after pill. :confused:
    LorraineMcFly wrote: »
    as you take it a day after sex is it? does it stop conception? sorry you have to enlighten me on it. its ok by me. prob a more religious issue
    You don't know what the morning after pill is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_contraception


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    #631
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Out of curisousity, anybody know anyone, who had a baby and a couple of weeks later said, 'ya know what i'm fcukin snappin i didnt have that abortion when i had the chance' ?


    i doubt it


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