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Keep abortion out of Ireland

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    #842
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    prinz wrote: »
    Can a man force a woman to have his unborn child aborted if the mother says no?
    Nobody can force anyone to put their body through something against their wishes (abortion).
    prinz wrote: »
    Can a man take legal action to prevent his unborn child from being aborted against his wishes?
    Nobody can force anyone to put their body through something against their wishes (pregnancy).
    prinz wrote: »
    This isn't a male versus female issue and any attempt to portray it as such is childish and a sign of desperation. Your one step away from saying my vote/opinion shouldn't count because I'm male. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard that kind of ignorance either.

    Unfortunately, as much as we strive for equality in human affairs (and so we should), the arena of pregnancy and childbirth is always one-sided. I don't believe there is any way that you could realistically say that a man has the slightest idea about what carrying a child might be like. This works both ways - I cannot imagine being a man in a lot of situations. I'm not suggesting men can't understand or sympathise - but they can't empathise (at least, as I understand the word).

    The idea of being forced to carry a child against my wishes is horrific, truly truly horrific. Not just physically but, more importantly, emotionally (in case you think I'm merely slightly concerned about stretchmarks). The fact that any man suggests such a thing does nothing except indicate his lack of understanding of the situation.

    This obviously presents some problems when the people legislating on abortion are largely, um, men.


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    #843
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    There is an element of gender control in it.. Im not saying you shouldn't get a say when it's your gf or wife, it ideally should be a mutual decision, but when it's someone else's body, the choice should be there.

    Ideally it should but in reality it isn't, is it? So how come I haven't been accusing the pro-choice side of seeking to control the destinies of men? Where does the gender control lie when a man doesn't want to be a father? A man can walk away but he's still a father at the end of the day. He might be able to hide it better but that doesn't mean the child doesn't exist.
    hattoncracker wrote: »
    A woman cannot deny being pregnant unless she locks herself away. Its blindingly obvious.

    Jesus wept. You've gotten the short-straw alright. We'll wind back how many thousands of years of evolution?
    doctoremma wrote: »
    Nobody can force anyone to put their body through something against their wishes (abortion)..

    Great so a man can be forced into becoming a father against his wishes, and for some reason we are still complaining about who is controlling who? If men can't empathise with women, can a women empathise with a man becoming a father?
    doctoremma wrote: »
    The idea of being forced to carry a child against my wishes is horrific, truly truly horrific. Not just physically but, more importantly, emotionally (in case you think I'm merely slightly concerned about stretchmarks). The fact that any man suggests such a thing does nothing except indicate his lack of understanding of the situation..

    How about the father who desperately wants his child and it gets aborted against his wishes? How would you describe that? I mean when emotions are more important than physical issues then why isn't a father's emotion needs given equal weight?
    doctoremma wrote: »
    This obviously presents some problems when the people legislating on abortion are largely, um, men.

    ..and was it largely men who legalised abortion in the UK? ..and everywhere else? Do you have issues that they did legislate? Why does the fact that it's "largely, um, men" legislating on abortion only become an issue when it isn't legalised?

    Either way the male versus female divide is a false one.


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    #844
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Prinz, I'd like to know what you mean when you say I've gotten "the short straw".

    And it is to a certain extent, a male vs female debate.

    If a man doesn't want to be a father, use a condom.

    If a man does want to be a dad and the woman he is with does not, he should be with another woman.


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    #845
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    Prinz, I'd like to know what you mean when you say I've gotten "the short straw".

    By being born female. Your complaint seems to centre around the fact that women have wombs and men don't.
    hattoncracker wrote: »
    And it is to a certain extent, a male vs female debate.
    If a man doesn't want to be a father, use a condom.

    Is there something preventing women from using contraception? Natural and otherwise? Isn't it ironic that when I suggested if women didn't want to be mothers they should take better precautions contraception wise but that gets dismissed. Of course this use a condom nonsense, while floating in irony also ignores, the questions I asked.
    hattoncracker wrote: »
    If a man does want to be a dad and the woman he is with does not, he should be with another woman.

    ..and a woman who doesn't want to procreate shouldn't have sex, or at least should be more careful about contraception. Simples. Ah yes, equality between the sexes is right.


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    #846
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    What if she's raped? Not all pregnancies are as a result of failure of contaception.


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    #847
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    prinz wrote: »
    hattoncracker wrote: »
    Prinz, I'd like to know what you mean when you say I've gotten "the short straw".

    By being born female. Your complaint seems to centre around the fact that women have wombs and men don't.
    hattoncracker wrote: »
    And it is to a certain extent, a male vs female debate.
    If a man doesn't want to be a father, use a condom.

    Is there something preventing women from using contraception? Natural and otherwise? Isn't it ironic that when I suggested if women didn't want to be mothers they should take better precautions contraception wise but that gets dismissed. Of course this use a condom nonsense, while floating in irony also ignores, the questions I asked.
    hattoncracker wrote: »
    If a man does want to be a dad and the woman he is with does not, he should be with another woman.

    ..and a woman who doesn't want to procreate shouldn't have sex, or at least should be more careful about contraception. Simples. Ah yes, equality between the sexes is right.


    I see the irony of what I posted is totally lost on you. I was taking the exact same black and white approach to your questions as you take to mine. But did I turn around and blame the guy for getting me pregnant? No, because that's just dumb.

    If I say a man should use a condom if he doesn't want kids, you say the woman should be the one to use contraception.


    When I say if a woman doesn't want kids she should be with someone who doesn't want them either, you say she shouldn't have sex.

    Where's the mans responsibility?


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    #848
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    eviltwin wrote: »
    What if she's raped? Not all pregnancies are as a result of failure of contaception.

    That's an extremely difficult and harrowing case scenario but studies on women getting abortions shows that victims of rape/incest/abuse represent less than 1% or odd of abortions in reality. Do you think I haven't thought about that? How difficult the whole situation would be?


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    #849
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    prinz wrote: »
    eviltwin wrote: »
    What if she's raped? Not all pregnancies are as a result of failure of contaception.

    That's an extremely difficult and harrowing case scenario but studies on women getting abortions shows that victims of rape/incest/abuse represent less than 1% or odd of abortions in reality. Do you think I haven't thought about that? How difficult the whole situation would be?


    People who abort for eye colour are a minority too, they have been mentioned on this thread too.. Rape victims should be mentioned, however small a percentage that is.


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    #850
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    If I say a man should use a condom if he doesn't want kids, you say the woman should be the one to use contraception.
    When I say if a woman doesn't want kids she should be with someone who doesn't want them either, you say she shouldn't have sex.
    Where's the mans responsibility?

    Not quite. I think men and women should take equal responsibility in the pregnancy happening, but basically what you are saying is men should share equal responsibility in getting you pregnant, equal responsibility after birth. But during the 9 months of pregnancy shouldn't have a say whatsoever.... or that it would be great in an 'ideal' world. So you want your cake and you want to eat it... and then you accuse others of sexism.


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    #851
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    People who abort for eye colour are a minority too, they have been mentioned on this thread too.. Rape victims should be mentioned, however small a percentage that is.

    They were mentioned... and I responded.


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    #852
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Prinz have you ever known a woman who had considered or had an abortion? We are normal women. I was a married mother in my 30's. Do you really not think my decision was mine and mine alone to make based on what was best for my life and that of my family ?


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    #853
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Prinz have you ever known a woman who had considered or had an abortion? We are normal women.

    Yes I have. She went through with it, she's still a friend. Prior to that I was in a relationship with her, it became an issue with the guy after me.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    I was a married mother in my 30's. Do you really not think my decision was mine and mine alone to make based on what was best for my life and that of my family?

    Honestly, no. Again all the reasons why I have done earlier on the thread.


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    #854
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    prinz wrote: »
    They were mentioned... and I responded.

    I don't remember seeing anything in your post about how little a percentage of women get abortions because of eye colour or gender when you were responding about them..
    And yet you flippantly throw it out there that rape victims to have abortions are in the minority. Funny, that.


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    #855
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Well that I find very hard to understand. I can assure you I didn't go through with it lightly. It was not an easy thing to do. I agonised over it for weeks. The hardest part was being exported to the UK to do it. Ireland's dirty little secret. If we send women overseas then its okay. Well its not. It still happens, we just allow another country to deal with it. But I was lucky I could afford to go. What if I hadn't? Your opinion would have forced me to continue with a pregnancy that was not wanted or take matters into my own hands. I can't get that at all.


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    #856
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    I don't remember seeing anything in your post about how little a percentage of women get abortions because of eye colour or gender when you were responding about them..

    I haven't discussed women getting abortions because of eye colour whatsoever.:confused:. As for 'because of gender' I was responding to a poster making a claim that it didn't happen. Unfortunately it does, and 0.0000001% is too many IMO.
    hattoncracker wrote: »
    And yet you flippantly throw it out there that rape victims to have abortions are in the minority. Funny, that.

    I didn't flippantly throw it out. See above.. 000000001% is too many so legalising abortion for the sake of a tiny minority is not going to change my position realistically is it?


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    #857
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    prinz wrote: »
    Not quite. I think men and women should take equal responsibility in the pregnancy happening, but basically what you are saying is men should share equal responsibility in getting you pregnant, equal responsibility after birth. But during the 9 months of pregnancy shouldn't have a say whatsoever.... or that it would be great in an 'ideal' world. So you want your cake and you want to eat it... and then you accuse others of sexism.

    The effects of having a child are a lot more long-lasting than the effects of having an abortion. (ie-you have a child you have to provide for, educate, and it's there for the rest of your life, I'm not talking about the emotional side of it)..

    If there is disagreement over something that fundamental in a relationship, then the problems in that relationship need to be addressed before making a life-long commitment to a child. A child deserves to be loved, a child deserves to have the best in life. If you knowingly can't provide it, and the guilt of bringing a child into this world that would not have all that you wanted for it outweighed the guilt of having an abortion, then there should be no argument. This is not a simple decision, it has to be made clinically but from the heart, and the balance of which is very hard to maintain.


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    #858
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    prinz wrote: »
    I haven't discussed women getting abortions because of eye colour whatsoever.:confused:. As for 'because of gender' I was responding to a poster making a claim that it didn't happen. Unfortunately it does, and 0.0000001% is too many IMO.



    I didn't flippantly throw it out. See above.. 000000001% is too many so legalising abortion for the sake of a tiny minority is not going to change my position realistically is it?

    Would you legalise abortion for rape victims only?


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    #859
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Well that I find very hard to understand... I can't get that at all.

    You see there the difference lies. I try to understand where you're coming from. I do see where you are coming from but just can't say 'abortion is ok afterall'. Other people can't see where I'm coming and prefer to resort to accusations of misogyny etc.


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    #860
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    The effects of having a child are a lot more long-lasting than the effects of having an abortion. (ie-you have a child you have to provide for, educate, and it's there for the rest of your life, I'm not talking about the emotional side of it)..

    Adoption?
    hattoncracker wrote: »
    If there is disagreement over something that fundamental in a relationship, then the problems in that relationship need to be addressed before making a life-long commitment to a child.

    Before hopping into bed I'd say.
    hattoncracker wrote: »
    A child deserves to be loved, a child deserves to have the best in life. If you knowingly can't provide it, and the guilt of bringing a child into this world that would not have all that you wanted for it outweighed the guilt of having an abortion, then there should be no argument. This is not a simple decision, it has to be made clinically but from the heart, and the balance of which is very hard to maintain.

    A child deserves to be loved. This question is going to sound cruel and messed up but it's the only way I can think of of phrasing it: do you honestly think had you proceeded with your pregnancy that you would not have loved your child? A child deserves the best you can provide, not the best in life otherwise nobody would be having kids.
    Seriously do you think I was raised with everythng my parents would have liked/wanted for me? Were you? There has already been the account earlier on the thread from a pro-choice poster whose friend considered abortion but didn't and is thankful since.. do you think that lady feels more guilt now?


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    #861
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    prinz wrote: »
    You see there the difference lies. I try to understand where you're coming from. I do see where you are coming from but just can't say 'abortion is ok afterall'. Other people can't see where I'm coming and prefer to resort to accusations of misogyny etc.

    I do see where you're coming from. Growing up, I believed as you believed, was raised as Catholic, went to mass every week with my mum and sister, but then I saw that life is not so black and white, and much as believing as I did would have been a nice way to live, I knew it wasn't an accurate representation of the real world.


    I saw sixteen and seventeen year olds in my school get pregnant, and one sat her Leaving Cert two weeks after having her baby.. At the time I just accepted it, but when I go to about 22/23 I used to see them when I visited home and tried to imagine how frightened I'd be a 23 being pregnant, never mind 17. I also saw girls at the other school in my town which was a convent who got pregnant and were kicked out for it. I just thought to myself "what if it was my daughter? or my sister? What if I was the principal of that convent? How could I justify that?"


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    #862
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    prinz wrote: »
    You see there the difference lies. I try to understand where you're coming from. I do see where you are coming from but just can't say 'abortion is ok afterall'. Other people can't see where I'm coming and prefer to resort to accusations of misogyny etc.

    I'm not saying abortion is okay. I am pro choice not pro abortion. I would love nothing more than to live in a world where all pregnancies were wanted but I'm a realist. I think people need support and non biased advice but they should be treated with dignity and allowed to do what they feel is right for them. I wouldn't want any woman to go through what I went through.


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    #863
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    Would you legalise abortion for rape victims only?

    I have thought about it.. I just can't see it working in practice, then again I'd see the unborn as the result of rape a victim in the whole ordeal too.


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    #864
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    prinz wrote: »
    I have thought about it.. I just can't see it working in practice, then again I'd see the unborn as the result of rape a victim in the whole ordeal too.

    Agreed. How would you ever explain that to your child?


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    #865
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm not saying abortion is okay. I am pro choice not pro abortion.

    If you support the death penalty are you pro-death penalty or pro-choice? It's semantics really, another way people use to disassociate themselves with their actual position.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    I would love nothing more than to live in a world where all pregnancies were wanted but I'm a realist.

    As would I.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    I wouldn't want any woman to go through what I went through.


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    #866
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    prinz wrote: »


    .. and I wouldn't want a foetus lying on a table somewhere struggling for breath but being ignored by doctors and medical staff as they wait for it to die.

    Posting stuff like that to someone who's had an abortion shows you have not the slightest idea as to how hard a decision like that is to make. Poor taste and insensitive, prinz. Hate the sin, not the sinner, but don't forget to look past the sin, and SEE the sinner.


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    #867
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    Agreed. How would you ever explain that to your child?

    Good question.


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    #868
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    prinz wrote: »
    Adoption?

    Illegal if you're married. I hope you kept that in mind when you were responding to eviltwin.

    Before hopping into bed I'd say.

    True, but that's not very realistic in this day and age.

    A child deserves to be loved. This question is going to sound cruel and messed up but it's the only way I can think of of phrasing it: do you honestly think had you proceeded with your pregnancy that you would not have loved your child? A child deserves the best you can provide, not the best in life otherwise nobody would be having kids.

    Did you at least have four walls and a roof? Because my child wouldn't have? I know I would have loved my child. I am a very loving person, but love doesn't pay for food. But hating the sin and not the sinner, as I have stated before, can make it hard to see the sinner behind the sin. Money is not everything, but the less you have of it the more important it becomes.

    Seriously do you think I was raised with everythng my parents would have liked/wanted for me? Were you? There has already been the account earlier on the thread from a pro-choice poster whose friend considered abortion but didn't and is thankful since.. do you think that lady feels more guilt now?

    I also believe that if we are talking about the same poster, she said she would have had it if it had been legal here, and her view on that hasn't changed even though she loves her child, if my memory serves correctly.


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    #869
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    Posting stuff like that to someone who's had an abortion shows you have not the slightest idea as to how hard a decision like that is to make. Poor taste and insensitive, prinz.

    Perhaps but in a debate about abortion what's the point if you're not able to discuss what some go through, not just women but also the ones who are aborted. There's a tendancy to resort to appeals to emotion here, but when I do the same it's poor taste.
    hattoncracker wrote: »
    Hate the sin, not the sinner, but don't forget to look past the sin, and SEE the sinner.

    I see the sinner.


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    #870
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Prinz if that post was meant to cause upset or distress you wasted your time. As I said earlier I do not regret what I did. But some women and men might find it distressing. Perhaps you should remove it, I know the point you are trying to make.


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    #871
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    prinz wrote: »
    Perhaps but in a debate about abortion what's the point if you're not able to discuss what some go through, not just women but also the ones who are aborted. There's a tendancy to resort to appeals to emotion here, but when I do the same it's poor taste.



    I see the sinner.

    She's a mother, already has children. She already knows what its like to hold her baby in her arms and to feel it move and grow inside her, and that would have made her decision extremely difficult. Do you not think that she must have had a very good reason to give that up, whatever that reason may be?


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