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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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  • Options
    #4652
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,492 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    golfwallah wrote: »
    The state is spending way more than it earns and deficit has to be reduced by a combination of taxation and spending cuts.

    Your home and site are in the state - therefore, the state has the right to impose tax on your ownership, once the necessary laws are passed in our parliament.

    That's democracy - whether you like it or not.

    To believe you can specify which of those taxes you will pay and won't pay just by putting up a reason like "I own my home", regardless for the laws passed by democratically elected government, is clearly undemocratic.

    Sure, you have the right to protest. But breaking the law, even for an unpopular tax, is not an acceptable principle that can be upheld in a democratic state. It's a recipe for chaos and anarchy.

    If you want to stand for election on a platform of making it legal to pay only the taxes you consider to be fair, please do so.

    Otherwise you should obey the laws of the land.

    Not if I consider that Law to be unjust.
    Originally Posted by Enda Kenny, 1994
    "It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home"


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    #4653
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    drkpower wrote: »
    You still havent distingushed the property tax/household charge from any other forms of taxation.

    In all seriousness,
    if the suggestions that you may be a retired doctor/consultant are true, out of sheer respect for you, I don't want to argue.

    I have much respect for doctors. Its how I was brought up.


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    #4654
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,492 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    drkpower wrote: »
    So are you saying that I, or anyne else, should not be legislatively obligated to pay income tax if I/we consider it unfair?

    Can you think of any practical repurcussions of that position?

    But I don't see Income Tax as unfair.
    If you do then you have the problem of conscience, not me.
    If I felt it was unfair I would do my best to oppose it but I don't.
    I do see the Property Tax as unfair though.


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    #4655
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I do see the Property Tax as unfair though.

    How is it unfair? The poor do not have pay it. Only those that can afford it are targeted.


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    #4656
    grindle
    Registered Users Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭grindle


    drkpower wrote: »
    Should I be entitled not to pay income tax if i consider it unfair?
    I'm certain there're vast amounts of mon€y wasted in your name that I don't think you should have to hand over, yes.
    Do I think you should pay none? No.
    drkpower wrote: »
    Its FOR the same thing as income tax is.
    Then fold it into income tax, stop calling it by another name. Deception isn't the best way to get people on-side.
    dvpower wrote: »
    It was in the EU/IMF MOU.
    December 2010. Previous government.
    Hardly a mandate by the public for the current government to do the same, gurramok. They weren't voted out because people thought they had great ideas.


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    #4657
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,492 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    gurramok wrote: »
    How is it unfair? The poor do not have pay it. Only those that can afford it are targeted.

    Do you think they will listen to the arguments of the poor sods who cannot afford it but are presented with the bill ? I don't.
    At the moment there are many people on the dole with more disposable income (because of other entitlements) than many a working man. But who will be exempt ? I know and so does everyone else.


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    #4658
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    gurramok wrote: »
    How is it unfair? The poor do not have pay it. Only those that can afford it are targeted.

    What a ridiculous comment to make at this stage in the thread. Read a newspaper or something.


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    #4659
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    grindle wrote: »
    December 2010. Previous government.
    Hardly a mandate by the public for the current government to do the same, gurramok. They weren't voted out because people thought they had great ideas.
    Did you seriously think that the bailout deal no longer applied on a change of government?


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    #4660
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Do you think they will listen to the arguments of the poor sods who cannot afford it but are presented with the bill ? I don't.
    At the moment there are many people on the dole with more disposable income (because of other entitlements) than many a working man. But who will be exempt ? I know and so does everyone else.

    Thats what you think. Have you reported the alleged infringement? Even dole threads here show responses from people on the dole that life ain't rosy.
    squod wrote: »
    What a ridiculous comment to make at this stage in the thread. Read a newspaper or something.

    Whats wrong with it? The people in social housing who are the poorest are exempt, at least thats fair.


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    #4661
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    gurramok wrote: »
    How is it unfair? The poor do not have pay it. Only those that can afford it are targeted.

    Only those that can afford it are targeted?

    Lets check out the excemptions list

    Which Properties Will Be Exempt from the Household Charge ?

    Mobile Homes will be exempt.
    The following buildings are not defined as residential property and will not be liable for the charge : Buildings that are….
    • Part of the trading stock of a business and from which no income has been derived since the building’s construction, and has never been used as a dwelling.
    OR vested in certain public authorities ( includes property under the Shared Ownership Scheme where the local authority still retains an ownership stake) ;
    OR owned by voluntary housing bodies;
    OR wholly used as dwellings and liable for commercial rates
    An owner of a residential property is exempt from the household charge if , on the liability date, the residential property is:
    • Comprised in a discretionary trust;
    OR Owned by an approved charity;
    OR Vacated by the owner by reason of long term mental or physical infirmity.
    Which People Will be Given a Waiver
    The following households will have the charge waived :
    1. Those in receipt of mortgage interest supplement – (about 18,000 households)
    2. Those in certain unfinished housing estates (Estimated to be less than 1300 estates)



    No other Waivers Apply – people on welfare and pensions are expected to pay.


    http://www.moneyguideireland.com/more-household-charge-exemptions-proposed.html

    There are pensioners and unemployed out there who won,t be able to fork out a €100 for this household tax.


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    #4662
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    dvpower wrote: »
    Did you seriously think that the bailout deal no longer applied on a change of government?

    Scenario tomorrow afternoon the goverment announce tomorrow afternoon the Household tax is being abolished due to low numbers registers, and annouces a new tax which will rasie the same amount of revenue which also takes into account of ones ability to pay, once the revenue is raised, do you really think the Imf/Eu care what method is used to raise the revenue once the currect amount of revenue is raised?


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    #4663
    golfwallah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Not if I consider that Law to be unjust.
    Originally Posted by Enda Kenny, 1994
    "It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home"

    So you don't believe in democracy, then!

    Now we know where you are coming from.

    Don't know where you got the Enda quote .... if he did say it, I'm sure it was in the context of a debate ..... and that was 18 years ago.

    Times and circumstances have changed - we now have to deal with today's issues, not those of 1994.

    Neither he, nor Sinn Fein nor any other political party that I know of, are advocating that people break the law of the land.


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    #4664
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    gurramok wrote: »
    .

    Whats wrong with it? The people in social housing who are the poorest are exempt, at least thats fair.

    What the hell are you on about? There's many thousands of people working in this country who can't make ends meet. Unless you've been living under a rock for your entire life you should realize this.
    70,000 homes have mortgage arrears and could well be worse off than those in social housing still have to pay. The official working poor are not let off the hook.

    Putting gurramok on ignore list. Obvious troll is obvious.


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    #4665
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Only those that can afford it are targeted?

    Lets check out the excemptions list

    http://www.moneyguideireland.com/more-household-charge-exemptions-proposed.html

    There are pensioners and unemployed out there who won,t be able to fork out a €100 for this household tax.

    Alot of pensioners can well afford it, their state pension is about 230quid a week and they are mortgage free. The poorest pensioners are in social housing.

    Most unemployed will be receiving MIS correct? They're entitled to it.


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    #4666
    grindle
    Registered Users Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭grindle


    dvpower wrote: »
    Did you seriously think that the bailout deal no longer applied on a change of government?

    No, but I'd expect somebody I'm debating not to obfuscate.
    gurramok wrote: »
    grindle wrote:
    So you think a law passed by any elected government is just?
    By this govt yes as they were recently elected where the electorate knew this tax was on the way. Sort of a mandate for it.

    We did not mandate this tax. Not even sort of.
    A fair tax would be the ones that fücked up having to pay their debts, or the morons who allowed unmanageable amounts of credit to get into the hands of idiots having to pay for their risk.
    An unfair tax is anybody having to pay off somebody else's loan.


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    #4667
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    gurramok wrote: »
    tayto lover wrote: »
    I do see the Property Tax as unfair though.

    How is it unfair? The poor do not have pay it. Only those that can afford it are targeted.


    It's unfair that there are exemptions there should be none everyone should have to pay end of story. Even those in rented accommodation should be liable for some equivalent charge and those in social housing should defo be made be sure aren't they using local services more than anyone else.


  • Options
    #4668
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Scenario tomorrow afternoon the goverment announce tomorrow afternoon the Household tax is being abolished due to low numbers registers, and annouces a new tax which will rasie the same amount of revenue which also takes into account of ones ability to pay, once the revenue is raised, do you really think the Imf/Eu care what method is used to raise the revenue once the currect amount of revenue is raised?
    Yes. They've explicitly specified a property tax and property taxes have the advantage of providing predictibility of the revenue stream.

    If they don't care what taxes we impose, why do you think they inserted specific taxes and charges?


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    #4669
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    dvpower wrote: »

    If they don't care what taxes we impose, why do you think they inserted specific taxes and charges?

    Why do you think they imposed a tax that has never succeeded in this country? Practically no-one paid it in '96. Very few people are paying it now.

    I couldn't care less what the previous or current administration agreed to. They can simply ask my bollox!


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    #4670
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    If you own a house or you are renting everyone should pay or no one should pay. Enough of the exemptions. Your using the same services this tax is supposed to be paying so why should anyone be exempt.


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    #4671
    heyjude
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭heyjude


    gurramok wrote: »
    How is it unfair? The poor do not have pay it. Only those that can afford it are targeted.

    The poor do have to pay it. It is not based on your income and not every person on a modest income lives in local authority housing or a rented property.
    So if you bought your house and then lost your job, you have to pay this tax and it applies to pensioners too, many of whom have only the state pension as income.

    Paying €100 even for the poor isn't the issue though, its what this tax will rise to next year or the year after. There has been speculation that it could eventually rise to €800-1000 per year, which is probably manageable for someone earning 50k a year, but to those with incomes of 12k a year, thats a full months income and will leave them with the choice of struggling to pay the tax or being forced to move home(if that is possible with negative equity).


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    #4672
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    squod wrote: »
    Why do you think they imposed a tax that has never succeeded in this country?
    They've specified a property tax despite it being unpopular because they feel quite strongly about the benefits of a property tax - that I've outlined above (and many times before on this thread).

    Why do you think they specified a property tax?


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    #4673
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    dvpower wrote: »

    Why do you think they specified a property tax?

    Poor research. Couple that with €€€ signs clouding their judgement and you have your answer.

    But do I care? No. I couldn't give a shite. As I've said before, we're paying huge wages to the shower who run this place and we're getting poor service from them in this regard.

    If they can't do the fuhken job they should stand aside. Simples.


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    #4674
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    donalg1 wrote: »
    It's unfair that there are exemptions there should be none everyone should have to pay end of story. Even those in rented accommodation should be liable for some equivalent charge and those in social housing should defo be made be sure aren't they using local services more than anyone else.

    I've been making that point here for weeks now, this tax discriminates against homeowners!
    One of several reasons I'm against it.


  • Options
    #4675
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    drkpower wrote: »
    Sell your house.

    Sell your ould wan....


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    #4676
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    Theres meant to be a story in tomorrows Irish daily mail relating to the household tax how the goverment and frightening old people with their recent threats, the blueshirts have sunk a new low frightening old people not even Fianna Fail sunk that low, there a lot of the rest of us who aren,t old people who won,t be frightned or Intimidated by goverment threats.


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    #4677
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Theres meant to be a story in tomorrows Irish daily mail relating to the household tax how the goverment and frightening old people with their recent threats, the blueshirts have sunk a new low frightening old people not even Fianna Fail sunk that low, there a lot of the rest of us who aren,t old people who won,t be frightned or Intimidated by goverment threats.
    Is this the suggestion that because it can't be paid at the post office, its more difficult for old people?

    Yes. This is certainly the lowest point that any government in the history of the state has ever sunk to.:rolleyes:


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    #4678
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    I've been making that point here for weeks now, this tax discriminates against homeowners!
    One of several reasons I'm against it.


    Income tax discriminates against income earners.
    Motor tax discriminates against car owners.
    TV license fee discriminates against tv owners
    Dog license fee discriminates against dog owners
    VAT discriminates against consumers.

    Enjoyed reading through the last few pages this morning - seems like the anti-tax crowd are becoming increasing hysterical as the deadline approaches.


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    #4679
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    grindle wrote: »
    We did not mandate this tax.

    Then why vote for the pro-bailout parties? No matter who entered govt, they had to implement these new charges. This was well known and highlighted as terms of the loan given to us by the IMF.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    It's unfair that there are exemptions there should be none everyone should have to pay end of story. Even those in rented accommodation should be liable for some equivalent charge and those in social housing should defo be made be sure aren't they using local services more than anyone else.

    The reason there is social housing is for the poorest of society, they don't own any housing, they rely on housing from the state for a roof over their heads.
    heyjude wrote: »
    The poor do have to pay it. It is not based on your income and not every person on a modest income lives in local authority housing or a rented property.
    So if you bought your house and then lost your job, you have to pay this tax and it applies to pensioners too, many of whom have only the state pension as income.

    If you bought your house and lost your job, you are entitled to Mortgage Interest Supplement hence exempt from the tax. As said already, pensioners get a generous state pension in this country. Unable to find less than a tenner a month for the tax is bordering outrageous.


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    #4680
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    gurramok wrote: »
    No, i'm not desperate. What I see is a few posters who intend to break the law.

    A few being 839 of the people who voted in the poll. Then there's the 85% of homeowners.


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    #4681
    golfwallah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    dvpower wrote: »
    It was in the EU/IMF MOU.

    Would you mind explaining briefly what the EU/IMF MOU is and what relevance has it to Household Charges?

    Acronyms and txt speak are not my strong suit!


This discussion has been closed.
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