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Is 2 euro a litre going to matter?

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    #32
    Crow92
    Registered Users Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭Crow92


    Ignoring how "oil changes the price of everything" and just focusing on transport, do people think if we had an oil crisis to see a drastic change?

    Also someone hit on the point of sending the kids to school by bike because of the short distance, I'd say that in itself (if it increased) would be the foundation of a future cycling country?


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    #33
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    JH_raheny wrote: »
    40 min - 1hour depending on wind/weather, it takes an hour in the car getting home when I leave at 5pm so something to said for it timewise as well
    One of the things that I love most about cycling to work is that it's reliable.

    I know how long it's going to take me to get in or out of work, to within a tolerance of about five minutes. The same can't be said of a car or a bus. In my experience, you can get the commute finely tuned and find the most efficient route, but it will only be the same about 90% of the time. 10% of the time your commute will be disrupted by unusually heavy traffic caused by weather, a crash backing everything up or just plain old transient currents. This compares with more than 99% of commutes going without incident on a bike, regardless of traffic or weather.

    Incidentally, I've never been late for work on the bike except when I've overslept. Once I didn't make it to work cos I crashed. The other time I made it to work, but realised I'd forgotten my shirt and had to go back home again :D


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    #34
    rp
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,227 ✭✭✭rp


    emigrate2012 wrote: »
    Of course it will,even if you cycle.Fuel cost's effect everything from private motorists to cyclists.How do you think the food you buy gets into the shop?On a truck. it's silly to think it won't effect you.
    yeah maybe I'll just have to forego eating tasteless veg trucked in from Spain, and go back to the locally grown produce - good opportunity for some enterprising farmers/market gardeners to open up a "pick your own"?


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    #35
    rp
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,227 ✭✭✭rp


    Inquitus wrote: »
    Nah but it might fecking stop me driving over to Three Rock and beyond for MTB spins :( and no it won't make me think a 60km round trip to the bottom of the hill is a good idea either!
    I've done it Maynooth/Ballinastoe (90km round trip), which makes for a nice warm-up/down, but it is much easier if you ride-up on Kojaks and change tyres in the car park.


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    #36
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    The only thing I would say about it is that people who are living at cycliable-distances from work are probably less likely to be impacted by a petrol price hike anyway.

    If you think about it, the majority of people who live in urban areas can opt to cycle or use public transport, if they live sufficiently close to work.

    The kinds of trips that will be mostly impacted by this will probably be longer ones. So, I don't know if you'll see that significant a jump in cycling.

    I live in Cork City and I know that because of the total lack of cycle facilities in most of the city and the fact that the streets are extremely narrow and hilly, you won't get very many people switching over to cycling. But, you will probably get a lot of people switching over to walking and getting buses.

    There are exceptions to that, if your commute for example was from the Westside (Bishopstown/Wilton etc) to say UCC or the City Centre, you'd be fine on a bike.

    Northside - Quite a scary cycle along narrow hilly streets.

    Southside - Narrow streets, no cycle lanes and a lot of traffic.

    Eastside - just too far away and no cycle lanes which results in you having to cycle down dual carriageways. There should be a cycle lane from the Lower Glanmire Road to Glanmire / Riverstown. There's loads of space for one!

    Most of Dublin is FAR more cycle-friendly than Cork. It's partially down to the local authority taking cycling more seriously in Dublin but it's also just down to the physical layout of the cities being quite different.


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    #37
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,066 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    An awful lot of people require their car for work, too.

    For instance I may have to travel over 100k with boxes of files and equipment some days at short notice. Neither public transport nor cycling are suitable for this. It might only happen twice a month, but as it's unpredictable I end up needing the car every day.

    I know a lot of people work a 9 to 5 in one office at all times of year but bear in mind that not everyone's able to just "ditch the car".


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    #38
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Some businesses will undoubtedly be impacted disproportionately by ever rising fuel prices, but others will benefit - hopefully local businesses, shops etc will derive something from people no longer trucking off to the large out of town shopping centres.

    Seasonality will come back into the food supply - new season potatoes will be just that, strawberries will become a summer fruit (and taste better) and beef will hang for longer.


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    #39
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    An awful lot of people require their car for work, too.

    For instance I may have to travel over 100k with boxes of files and equipment some days at short notice. Neither public transport nor cycling are suitable for this. It might only happen twice a month, but as it's unpredictable I end up needing the car every day.

    I know a lot of people work a 9 to 5 in one office at all times of year but bear in mind that not everyone's able to just "ditch the car".

    This always comes up in these types of discussions. Sure there are people for whom a bike is not practical, and who genuinely "need" a car, for reasons like you outline. But most people don't, and drive anyway.

    It would only require 3% of drivers to switch to a bicycle to double the number of cycle commuters. Don't tell me 100% of drivers currently commuting absolutely can't do it any other way.


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    #40
    manwithaplan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭manwithaplan


    Jawgap wrote: »
    beef will hang for longer.

    That's what happens when you get out of your car.


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    #41
    Seweryn
    Registered Users Posts: 4,487 ✭✭✭Seweryn


    StaggerLee wrote: »
    I dont think you'll get many more Bike commuters. I split my commuting between cycling and driving, its a 40k round trip. I dont want to cycle it 5 days a week.
    Why not? I started cycling only recently, I am not very fit and I commute by bike every day, 44km return trip (sometimes more, if I take a different route). It is easily managable even for me ;).


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    #42
    Crow92
    Registered Users Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭Crow92


    If you check in lyon, france they have a new car share programme in which works a bit like the dublin bike scheme, interesting read here.

    http://www.business.greaterlyon.com/economic-news-item-lyon.194+M57fefd2e52d.0.html?&L=1
    Lyon welcomes a new innovative mobility service: 200 car2go ready for use on 1st February 2012! Lyon is the first French city to enjoy the benefits of car2go.



    mod edit: you shouldn't quote more than a paragraph of an article, we will update guidelines as soon as we get them: Captain Havoc

    Not saying it's the most practical thing but interesting all the same.


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    #43
    rp
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,227 ✭✭✭rp


    Crow92 wrote: »
    If you check in lyon, france they have a new car share programme in which works a bit like the dublin bike scheme, interesting read here.
    http://www.business.greaterlyon.com/economic-news-item-lyon.194+M57fefd2e52d.0.html?&L=1

    We've already got something similar in Dublin (actually based out of the building I work in): GoCar


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    #44
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    There ya go, this American family moved house using bikes instead of removals vans: Link


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    #45
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,050 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Crow92 wrote: »
    And on a side note does anyone think the public transport fare increases will have caused more to cycle?

    Every time I get on a bus and pay the now extortionate fare, I promise next time I'll cycle instead. It's usually quicker, and essentially free.


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    #46
    ednwireland
    Registered Users Posts: 14,291 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    buffalo wrote: »
    , and essentially free.

    errrrrm no not really

    you obviousley dont read this thread
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055577641
    or this one
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056356968

    ;)

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



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    #47
    jameverywhere
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭jameverywhere


    my secondhand commuting bike plus a good lock cost roughly 200 quid.

    the bus to work and back each day is roughly 4 quid.

    50 days of cycling to work (only 5km each way) essentially pays for the bike.

    (this is, of course, ignoring the parts I swapped for the fun of it, and all the gear I bought as I started getting more serious about touring)

    I used to walk to save money and keep fit, but the walk is an hour compared to 25 min on the bike so.


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    #48
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    rp wrote: »
    We've already got something similar in Dublin (actually based out of the building I work in): GoCar

    It's actually rolled out quite well in Cork and Dublin, but I would wonder what the uptake is like. It seems quite expensive.

    http://www.gocar.ie/cms/carsharing/en/4/cms?cms_knschluessel=TARIFE

    UCC's been quite innovative with car pooling and bike services:

    Student car pooling with Avego using iPhone apps to locate lifts etc : http://collegenews.ie/index.php/1601/express/express-news/avego-to-launch-world-first-commuter-service-in-cork/

    Communal bike hire for staff : http://www.ucc.ie/en/build/commuting/campusbike/ (Small scale, but it has potential)

    Car Pooling : http://www.ucc.ie/en/build/commuting/CarPooling/

    Car Sharing : http://www.ucc.ie/en/build/commuting/CarSharing/

    UCC has about 20,000 people using its campus. Giving it a population that is as large as the entire town of Sligo or Athlone, except without any of the residential facilities so everyone using the campus has to get there on foot, by car, on a bike etc.

    Large academic campuses are ideal to try out and implement this kind of stuff.


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    #49
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    Seweryn wrote: »
    Less than three years ago fuel was almost half the price it is at the moment.
    Has anything changed since? Very little in terms of motorised traffic anyway.

    There has been a significant fall in road deaths which suggests the roads may be becoming a progressively safer cycling environment.

    There is a direct relationship between indicators like fuel prices or unemployment rates and levels of road deaths.

    It gets missed because the RSA and Garda like to claim credit and our national media aren't minded to rock the boat by asking awkward questions.


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    #50
    manwithaplan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭manwithaplan


    This crowd do their international comparisons based on the death and injury rates per million km travelled (unfortunately you have to pay for access but the data may be accessible elsewhere). A long time ago, I used to collate the Irish figures.

    It's a fairer basis of comparison and it gives a truer picture of 'how safe it is' but it's not used outside academic circles. In fairness to the authorities, they never empasised greater car use as a reason for high fatalities in former years. I suspect the 'per million km travelled' figures still show positive trends year-on-year in Ireland. Over 600 people were killed in some years in the 70s when usage was way below what it is now and the numbers killed did not rise in the 90s and the first half of the noughties when car ownership and use exploded.


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    #51
    Surveyor11
    Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭Surveyor11


    saa wrote: »
    I don't think so people seem to have a bigger mental block about cycling a distance further than across Dublin city centre (see I didn't say town), more so than the issue about paying more.

    Literally, when people see I have a bike and ask "Did you cycle" Duuurh no shizz, I brought it on the bus to show it off.
    And then they say where did you cycle from and people are usually horrified
    and I say ah its only 15 miles and I just get back a oh jesus I don't know how you do it.


    Got in the other morning, sat at my desk and turned on the pc, all in full lycra gear while waiting for a spot in the changing room, one of my colleagues asked me did I cycle, I replied no, got the bus. Didn't bat an eyelid. Most people working with me drive to the city, from far flung places like clonskeagh, rathmines and other places at the edge of the known world. They will also park the car on a meter for the entire day if they miss the spot in the small car park - can't get my head around that one


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    #52
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    manwithaplan wrote: »
    It's a fairer basis of comparison and it gives a truer picture of 'how safe it is' but it's not used outside academic circles. In fairness to the authorities, they never empasised greater car use as a reason for high fatalities in former years. I suspect the 'per million km travelled' figures still show positive trends year-on-year in Ireland. Over 600 people were killed in some years in the 70s when usage was way below what it is now and the numbers killed did not rise in the 90s and the first half of the noughties when car ownership and use exploded.

    Yes there is a thing called Smeeds Law that shows road deaths falling as a given country's level of motorisation increases. It appears to apply accross many countries - some countries have managed to do this and also maintain levels of walking and cycling (eg the Netherlands). Others have simply followed the expedient of allowing these modes to largely die out other than in city centres (the UK and Irl)

    The issue for us as cyclists is to separate out our death rate per million km travelled as a means of making one form of comparison between time periods.


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    #53
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    rp wrote: »
    I've done it Maynooth/Ballinastoe (90km round trip), which makes for a nice warm-up/down, but it is much easier if you ride-up on Kojaks and change tyres in the car park.

    I'm planning to go one better and get a bike trailer. I'll stick the full susser with the huge tires on the trailer and tow it with a road bike. Simples :)


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    #54
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    We'll never see these numbers on a garage forecourt again!

    http://maps.google.ie/maps?hl=en&ll=53.343557,-6.369925&spn=0.000077,0.061584&sll=53.343607,-6.370501&sspn=0.017755,0.061584&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.343607,-6.370501&panoid=NM5vNtUvJOEFTZ2CKatkGw&cbp=12,335.67,,1,-5.45


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    #55
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,743 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    manwithaplan wrote: »
    I suspect the 'per million km travelled' figures still show positive trends year-on-year in Ireland. Over 600 people were killed in some years in the 70s when usage was way below what it is now and the numbers killed did not rise in the 90s and the first half of the noughties when car ownership and use exploded.

    Is that not essentially Smeed's Law?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smeed%27s_law
    EDIT: Didn't see galwaycyclist's similar post.


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    #56
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,743 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Solair wrote: »
    It's actually rolled out quite well in Cork and Dublin, but I would wonder what the uptake is like. It seems quite expensive.

    http://www.gocar.ie/cms/carsharing/en/4/cms?cms_knschluessel=TARIFE

    I've been using it for two years. It seems to work out at about €8 per hour the way I tend to use it, which makes it more expensive than public transport, but usually cheaper than a taxi. I only use it for journeys where I have to bring the whole family on a journey where there are too many changes using public transport, or where it's a long journey not facilitated by public transport.

    The real savings are in not owning a car (or not owning a second car). I spend a few hundred a year on GoCar, which is a sum about an order of magnitude lower than the average car owner spends. Admittedly, I've spent years figuring out how to do things by bike (and to a lesser extent public transport) as much as possible, but I think many families with a second car could save a lot of money by phasing out the second car in favour of GoCar, or something similar.

    Similarly, public transport is a lot more competitive if you factor in the sunk costs of owning a car. Of course, you have to eschew owning a car in order to avail of the savings possible with public transport; if you already have paid for a car, it's often cheaper to drive.

    EDIT: I forgot to say that you have access to a Transit van as well as cars, which is a very nice bonus if you need to buy something larger, or are planning to move house.


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    #57
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,743 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    There has been a significant fall in road deaths which suggests the roads may be becoming a progressively safer cycling environment.

    There is a direct relationship between indicators like fuel prices or unemployment rates and levels of road deaths.

    It gets missed because the RSA and Garda like to claim credit and our national media aren't minded to rock the boat by asking awkward questions.

    Interestingly, the recession was invoked to explain the fall in road deaths in Dublin city centre, partly to dismiss the possibility that the 30 zone had had an effect.

    To be fair, it was the AA doing the dismissing, rather than the RSA. And again, to be fair, I don't know whether the 30 zone did have that large an effect. The 5-axle band seems more important to me, given the lack of enforcement of the 30 zone, much as I like the 30 zone.


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    #58
    doozerie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    As mentioned already I think there are significant hurdles that people would have to overcome in order to embrace the idea that cycling is a feasible alternative to commuting by car. One hurdle that still exists strongly, I believe, is the perceived image of cycling and what people believe it says about you. In my previous job I received a lot of sceptical looks when I arrived at client sites by bicycle. I wore regular clothes but I carried the signs of cycling such as helmet stuffed with lights and gloves under my arm. I believe I was seen as being a bit eccentric, my bicycle was the equivalent of sporting a handlebar moustache and plus fours. It simply wasn't seen as "professional" and I only got away with it by being good at my job so clients were willing to categorise my cycling as an anomaly that could be overlooked.

    Times have changed, economically and otherwise, but I don't believe that skewed view of cycling as being something you do out of absolute necessity, or because of being a hippy, has gone away. Incidentally, some individuals at client sites saw my cycling as being a positive thing but their corporate culture didn't so even if they themselves saw it as a viable alternative for themselves their employer essentially seemed to discourage it. Image, apparently, is more important than many other factors. In my current job the philosophy is very different and many people commute by bike, but in my experience this is the exception.

    Misconceptions about cycling create other significant hurdles too. For example, people believe that cycling is dangerous, they believe that they'll get rained on every other day, they believe bike maintenance is beyond them and expensive, they believe their bike will likely be stolen the first time they lock it somewhere public, etc. An increase in fuel prices won't eliminate those fears - it may well make people reassess whether such fears are rational, of course, but some of those fears seem to be simply accepted as basic facts and it'll take a lot more than financial concerns to challenge them.


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    #59
    doozerie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    Actually I suspect that even among cycling enthusiasts the bicycle isn't seen as all that it could be. How many people here, for example, would willingly give up their car(s) in favour of relying entirely on their bike(s) (plus public transport where necessary)?

    I know that I'd be reluctant to make that choice. I only learned to drive in my mid 30's and I've had a car since then. Up to that point I commuted everywhere by bike, I shopped by bike, holidays were often by bike, etc. Being so dependent on a bike at that age made it hard for people to categorise me - I'd long since stopped being a student, and it wasn't that I couldn't afford a car, so hippy seemed to be the only category I could be slotted into. Since I bought a car I can harp on about how much more practical it is to, for example, do the weekly shopping by car - there's no denying it's easier, but in actual fact if I were to add a trailer to the bike then it would be perfectly feasible to so the same amount of shopping by bike instead. I reckon that a lot of us are clearly happy being cycling hippies, but cycling-with-a-trailer hippy-ism is perhaps a kaftan too far :)

    I'd consider myself very open to the idea of cycling being a core part of daily life, and it is indeed a very important part of my family's life (my wife and I both commute by bike, we have a child trailer, my daughter already has a mini fleet of bikes :), etc.), but despite my dim view of motoring culture I can't deny that I've bought into it too to a certain extent. So while I can look at people who commute by car and wonder how they can possibly make that choice where cycling is a viable alternative, I reckon I should also challenge my own perception that I need my car in other situations.

    Living a life entirely without a car is really a topic for another discussion but it might perhaps identify misconceptions, prejudice even, even on the part of some of those of us who consider commuting by bicycle to be the logical choice. And those same misconceptions may be at the heart of the dim view of cycling held by many people - maybe trying to explore our own misconceptions would help us understand the misconceptions of others, which may ultimately help us to find ways of addressing that negative view of cycling held by what seems to be a lot of people. Before we know it maybe we'll have convinced a lot of people of the benefits of cycling, and then we'll just have to figure out how to accommodate the increased numbers of fellow cyclists on the roads!

    ...whew, after such a hippy post I feel the need to go and wax my moustache, man.


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    #60
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,743 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    doozerie wrote: »
    In my previous job I received a lot of sceptical looks when I arrived at client sites by bicycle. I wore regular clothes but I carried the signs of cycling such as helmet stuffed with lights and gloves under my arm. I believe I was seen as being a bit eccentric, my bicycle was the equivalent of sporting a handlebar moustache and plus fours.

    I had a similar experience when I was carrying out a crowd count at Croke Park with my brother. We had clipboards and documentation, so were presenting a somewhat professional exterior, but I had a bicycle helmet with me hanging off my backpack -- this was back when I wore a helmet -- and this was commented on by a shopkeeper when we went in to buy lunch. He made some sarcastic comment about this very important person arriving on a bicycle. A very odd comment to make about a stranger.

    Mind you, that was years ago. I think cycling is a little more, eh, fashionable now.

    As for the eccentricity angle, I find it hard to tell, as very many things I decide to do are treated as the product of a wayward mind by my friends and family.


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    #61
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,743 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    doozerie wrote: »
    I reckon that a lot of us are clearly happy being cycling hippies, but cycling-with-a-trailer hippy-ism is perhaps a kaftan too far :)

    I have sunk that low.

    126007.jpg

    It may be down to being, shall we say, "careful with money", as Elaine Benes describe George Costanza. I would go to considerable physical effort to save several grand a year. Actually, I also enjoy physical effort more than most, I think.

    I also don't enjoy driving, so renting cars a few times a year suits me fine. I know that most people do enjoy driving, at least in some scenarios. I'd rather not in just about every scenario.


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