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Dublin to Cork Express Coach

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13

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    #62
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    A note of caution because the term "Interurban Express" is used to describe services such as the current Galway to Dublin X20 service as well as the Rosslare to Tralee service route number 40 and the current Cork to Dublin service all provided by bus Eireann. there is nothing there that states this will actually be a Non-Stop service and there could be several stops en route.

    I don't necessarily think the BE licenses are the same services you are talking about. I think they possibly could be NEW services that are yet to start operating as they all appear to be ones which have been modified recently.

    My reasoning is that Interurban services seem to be issued for three year durations. The services you refer to all have expiry dates in 2015, which seems to suggest they have may have been modified or registered recently and are yet to become active.

    EG:
    The Dublin to Galway Interurban Express expires on 07/02/2015 along with the Interurban Multi-Stop. That to me would indicate that they were registered/changed sometime in February 20012. The most recent timetable for route X20 is from September 2011. Hence my belief there could be changes in the pipeline.

    Back on to topic, I notice Aircoach have posted this on their facebook page in response to someone asking them a question about their plans:
    At present that is a service that we are looking into, please keep watching our website at www.aircoach.ie for all up to date news and information.


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    #63
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,549 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Joko wrote: »

    Leaving tomorrow Dublin - Cork would take between 2hrs 45min to 3hrs on Irish Rail and cost €37.

    This new bus route will destroy Irish Rail. If the IMF cuts off their lifeline (old age pass) they will go bust.

    Not correct. Leaving tomorrow the train can take 2 hrs 30 min to 3 hrs.

    Who is to say that stopping patterns could be changed over the coming months, with fewer stops on Dublin/Cork services, as more 22k sets are commissioned? This could result in most of the slower trains being accelerated.


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    #64
    Joko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Joko


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Not correct. Leaving tomorrow the train can take 2 hrs 30 min to 3 hrs.

    Who is to say that stopping patterns could be changed over the coming months, with fewer stops on Dublin/Cork services, as more 22k sets are commissioned? This could result in most of the slower trains being accelerated.

    The Dublin/Cork Express bus will suck all the passengers away from the 2 end points of the route, all Irish Rail will have is the intermediate stops. Irish Rail failed to reduce their times despite billions given to them, and this increase in journey times will only continue to rise with funds drying up and their passenger numbers declining.

    Irish Rail are addicted to the teeth of government handouts that they have to pad their journey times to ensure they get their subvention. The token 2hr 30min is testiment to this.


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    #65
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,549 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think I'd prefer to wait and see what happens rather than making very swift judgements.


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    #66
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    devnull wrote: »
    I don't necessarily think the BE licenses are the same services you are talking about. I think they possibly could be NEW services that are yet to start operating as they all appear to be ones which have been modified recently.

    My reasoning is that Interurban services seem to be issued for three year durations. The services you refer to all have expiry dates in 2015, which seems to suggest they have may have been modified or registered recently and are yet to become active.

    EG:
    The Dublin to Galway Interurban Express expires on 07/02/2015 along with the Interurban Multi-Stop. That to me would indicate that they were registered/changed sometime in February 20012. The most recent timetable for route X20 is from September 2011. Hence my belief there could be changes in the pipeline.

    Back on to topic, I notice Aircoach have posted this on their facebook page in response to someone asking them a question about their plans:

    Take the X20, the previous licences for that service are most likely near expiring now so they are using the opportunity to make some small changes and renew the licence but I don't see a fully Non-Stop Dublin-Galway service or indeed a full non-stop Rosslare to Tralee service, others include Dublin-Ballina, Athlone-Westport, Dublin-Dundalk, Dublin-Waterford, Dublin-Rosslare, Ballina-Galway, Tralee-Limerick etc. most of the normal expressway routes are Interurban Express routes and as such this new route will be the same but there is nothing in the information we currently have that denotes it being a non-stop service.


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    #67
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Joko wrote: »
    The Dublin/Cork Express bus will suck all the passengers away from the 2 end points of the route, all Irish Rail will have is the intermediate stops. Irish Rail failed to reduce their times despite billions given to them, and this increase in journey times will only continue to rise with funds drying up and their passenger numbers declining.

    Irish Rail are addicted to the teeth of government handouts that they have to pad their journey times to ensure they get their subvention. The token 2hr 30min is testiment to this.

    If that was the case then nobody would be using the train between Dublin and Galway - Newsflash. They still are even though the train is slower pretty much all of the time. Some people like to have a smoother environment that trains offer, the chance of having a table etc.

    As I said I'm not big fan of Irish Rail, but there are obvious benefits of using the train even when such a direct service comes in. Sure IR will bleed a number of customers, but I know several of my colleagues would choose a train over a bus on many occasions no matter what the bus offered.

    foggy_lad - you'll have to be patient like the rest of us and wait and see then!!


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    #68
    Joko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Joko


    devnull wrote: »
    If that was the case then nobody would be using the train between Dublin and Galway - Newsflash. They still are even though the train is slower pretty much all of the time. Some people like to have a smoother environment that trains offer, the chance of having a table etc.

    As I said I'm not big fan of Irish Rail, but there are obvious benefits of using the train even when such a direct service comes in. Sure IR will bleed a number of customers, but I know several of my colleagues would choose a train over a bus on many occasions no matter what the bus offered.

    foggy_lad - you'll have to be patient like the rest of us and wait and see then!!

    Yes, but a state company which is reliant on hundreds of millions of state funding is competing against a private company. People might prefer traveling by train but why does the state have to subsidise their ticket when there is a equally good alternative.


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    #69
    jacko1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭jacko1


    Joko wrote: »
    The Dublin/Cork Express bus will suck all the passengers away from the 2 end points of the route, all Irish Rail will have is the intermediate stops. Irish Rail failed to reduce their times despite billions given to them, and this increase in journey times will only continue to rise with funds drying up and their passenger numbers declining.

    Irish Rail are addicted to the teeth of government handouts that they have to pad their journey times to ensure they get their subvention. The token 2hr 30min is testiment to this.

    Passneger numbers are not declining - was on the 07.30 Cork - Dublin this morning - approx 280 passengers on board - we arrived at 10.01

    great service and my return ticket cost €44 incl booking fee


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    #70
    jacko1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭jacko1


    Joko wrote: »
    Yes, but a state company which is reliant on hundreds of millions of state funding is competing against a private company. People might prefer traveling by train but why does the state have to subsidise their ticket when there is a equally good alternative.

    the state subsidises the ticket as Irish Rail provides and services the rail line

    GoBus doesnt build and maintain the roads


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    #71
    Joko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Joko


    jacko1 wrote: »
    Passneger numbers are not declining - was on the 07.30 Cork - Dublin this morning - approx 280 passengers on board - we arrived at 10.01

    great service and my return ticket cost €44 incl booking fee

    Anecdotal evidence means nothing. If a private bus company does a Dublin/Cork service, questions will be asked why the state continues to subsidise Irish Rail.
    Passenger numbers peaked in 2007 when 10.7 million journeys were made on the inter-city network. This fell to eight million last year.

    The major reason for the decline is because the roll-out of the motorway network means it is generally quicker to drive between cities than take the train.

    Iarnrod Eireann has spent more than 10 years bringing the network up to a basic standard. Since 1998, more than €1.6bn has been spent upgrading the railway network which includes replacing 500 miles of track, upgrading or closing 900 level crossings and replacing or upgrading 240 bridges.


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/passengers-ditching-train-for-cars-on-long-journeys-3026976.html


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    #72
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    devnull wrote: »
    foggy_lad - you'll have to be patient like the rest of us and wait and see then!!

    It appears that all trace of the X1 and X33 Express services to Belfast and Derry have been removed from the Bus Eireann website. is this a sign of impending changes? for some time there was a notice on the X33 timetable stating that free travel passes were not valid for use on the service. Are Bus Eireann setting up express services which will be for paying passengers only?


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    #73
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Who is to say that stopping patterns could be changed over the coming months, with fewer stops on Dublin/Cork services, as more 22k sets are commissioned? This could result in most of the slower trains being accelerated.
    They had an opportunity to accelerate the 0505 ex Cork by deleting the Ballybrophy stop and having the Nenagh branch service take it on...

    That said there is a programme to lay UIC60 on the mainline (which will release UIC54 panels for the likes of Nenagh Branch) which may increase the amount of 100mph Cork-Dublin running in the midlands.


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    #74
    Joko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Joko


    kieran4003 wrote: »

    Aswell, The old age free travel pass is not the lifeline of Irish Rail. An examination of internal revenue figures last year told me otherwise.

    Take away the Free Travel Pass and the trains will be ghost lines. It boasts numbers and gives justification to keep lines open. I'm not privy to current information but in 2009:

    195268.JPG

    http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/10005-0.pdf


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    #75
    kieran4003
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭kieran4003


    Your table proves my point that the FTP is only a very small part of the mix for Irish Rail.


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    #76
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    kieran4003 wrote: »
    Your table proves my point that the FTP is only a very small part of the mix for Irish Rail.

    Why do Irish rail require 5 times the unit subsidy per passenger journey that the other cie companies get?


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    #77
    LeftBlank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭LeftBlank


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Why do Irish rail require 5 times the unit subsidy per passenger journey that the other cie companies get?

    Because BE and DB don't have to maintain the roads.


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    #78
    xOxSinéadxOx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,604 ✭✭✭xOxSinéadxOx


    Got the 8pm Aircoach from Dublin to Cork about a month ago. Approx. 7 of us got in Dublin, nobody got on or off the whole way and we all got off in Cork.
    On the way back though there was way more people and lots of people got on and off on the way. That's my only experience of getting the bus to Cork. I used to get the train when you could get 10euro fares without having to book in advance. Now you have to book in advance to get them and they've slapped on a 2euro charge for paying with laser which wasn't there before either. I thought I would hate being on a bus for that long but it was actually grand. Bus on the way down was really comfy with extra leg room, no toilet. Toilet doesn't matter to me but seems to be a big issue for some people.. On the way back less comfortable bus, no extra leg room, I'm tall :( . But it had a toilet. Since then I would choose Aircoach over IE to Cork any day based mostly on price. Also the flexibility of getting the bus at any time, whereas if you book the train for a certain price you have to get that train or pay more. So if I'm choosing Aircoach over IE I'm obviously going to choose this new service too.

    Anybody know when this service is coming into effect? I'll be going to Cork again in a few weeks.


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    #79
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    jacko1 wrote: »
    Passneger numbers are not declining - was on the 07.30 Cork - Dublin this morning - approx 280 passengers on board - we arrived at 10.01

    Irish Rail themselves say they are, they published a consultants report into intercity rail just last month and it found that passenger numbers are down 20% over the last 3 years.
    Ixflyer wrote:
    I think I'd prefer to wait and see what happens rather than making very swift judgements.

    Fair enough, but I think the writing is on the wall.

    If you read the report that Irish Rail themselves published only a few weeks ago, the report clearly states that intercity rail would only remain competitive if the NTA didn't continue to license direct non stop bus services.

    The report found that where such licenses where issued, it had a major negative impact on passenger numbers. Again this report found that the currently passenger trips look like so:

    Cork - Dublin
    Car 50%, Rail 40%, Bus 10%

    Galway - Dublin
    Car 50%, Rail 25%, Bus 25%

    Now if Cork to Dublin (and also Limerick, Waterford, etc.) go the same way, then that would mean Irish Rail would lose 40% of their passengers on these routes, that is on top of recently losing 20% of their passengers!

    Let me repeat that, if the Galway pattern is followed then Irish Rail could lose 40% of it's passengers!

    Now I admit, Cork to Dublin is slightly different then Galway, Galway buses are faster then the train, where the Cork buses will be slightly slower then the train, so that will be an advantage to IR, but on the flipside, the cost difference between buses and trains is much greater on the Cork route (about 4 times) then the Galway route (about 2 times).

    Either way I expect a 30% drop in passengers at Irish Rail and yes, that would be devastating.

    Sure it won't happen over night and yes, people will continue to use the trains, but losing 30 to 40% of your customer will have a massive effect on your company, it will mean you either have to:

    - Look for massive increase in subsidy (not going to happen in the current economic climate)
    - Big increase in ticket prices (which will just widen the price gap with bus and drive more customers away)
    - Our significant cost cutting.

    Unfortunately I think the last is the most likely outcome. It really is the only feasible outcome.

    BTW I'm not just attacking Irish Rail, this will also have a major impact on BE and Aircoach.

    As has been pointed out, they currently survive on a combination of both direct and intermediate passengers. Now I don't know what the percentage mix is, but I would be very surprised if it isn't at least 50% direct, if not more. So this new service will take the majority of these passengers. Sure some people will still take what they are use to for whatever reason, but logically the majority will switch to a guaranteed scheduled service, specially if it has toilets onboard.

    So it will also have a major impact on them both. However BE at least should be better prepared to weather this storm then Irish Rail, while the Cork route is important for them, it isn't as important as it is for IR. BE network is far more spread through the whole country. Also BE can respond to changes in passenger demand more quickly, they can reduce scheduled services more easily due to their heavy use of contractors.

    It will be interesting to see if BE/Aircoach respond by introducing their own direct service (and thus perhaps reduce their stopping service frequency) as Citylink did in Galway when GoBus started their direct service to Galway.

    Of course that would put even more pressure on Irish Rail.

    One thing that I do think that all these coach services need, is dedicated bus stations in both Dublin and Cork. It is my opinion that the NTA should take ownership of the rail stations and develop them as integrated mutli operator, multi transport hubs.


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    #80
    mydiscworld
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    I'm delighted GoBus will give this Dublin to Cork direct route a chance.

    It will take a while for word to get out, so I hope they try it's viability over a min period of 18-24 months.

    3hrs 15mins is the max people will put up with, imo. I will be very interested to see if this is possible given the 100km speed limit for buses.

    On board toilets (which they will have) are essential for this duration, as is keeping them very clean.

    I have used Citylink Dublin to Galway direct 5 or 6 times in the past few weeks. It's taken 2hrs 35 on average, which included leaving 5 mins late each time, which seemed the norm (for late people I guess.)

    I enjoy the train when it's fast and when I get a good price. 20euro student return to Galway gets me on the train every time. 32-36euro (can't recall exactly) they tried charging me a week later forced me onto Citylink.

    If I can help it at all, I will only get the train Dublin to Cork now on a 5pm Friday train, which takes 2hrs 30 or so. Anything over 10 mins slower seems ridiculous when charging a student a whopping 50 euro return.

    I am aware of the current student offer for all students on Irish Rail:
    - 30euro return to Cork (plus booking fee 2/3euro)
    - 20euro return to Galway (plus booking fee 2/3euro)

    http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_offers.jsp?i=4479&p=118&n=144&ci=4

    This should not be an 'Offer'. It should be made permanent. I would get the train 100% of the time if it is always 30euro (and no booking fee, assuming they do indeed remove it in the next few weeks.)


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    #81
    dub_commuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭dub_commuter


    Aircoach vehicles have a toilet? Since when was this? All they were using is 2004 Setra's and those god awful Scania vehicles that are the same length as the Setra's, but having 10 more seats = squashed tomatoes. At least Bus Eireann use PB's that are much better vehicles.


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    #82
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dub_commuter wrote: »
    Aircoach vehicles have a toilet? Since when was this? All they were using is 2004 Setra's and those god awful Scania vehicles that are the same length as the Setra's, but having 10 more seats = squashed tomatoes. At least Bus Eireann use PB's that are much better vehicles.

    All GoBus buses have toilets and that is who we are talking about here.


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    #83
    dub_commuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭dub_commuter


    That is down to the moderators - stop the back seat moderating.

    Discussion about Aircoach is related to this topic as they operate a similar service.


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    #84
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,895 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Kumsheen wrote: »
    I would agree with you on the old routes via N roads and via multiple towns, but a direct motorway smooth ride at a constant speed is totally different.
    You wouldn't get me on one of those old routes with constant repetitive brake,accelerator,roundabout,traffic light,town....

    Good point. Took the bus to Cork one time thinking "It'll take longer than driving but I'll get some work done on the laptop". Turned out this was extremely impractical on all but the brief times we were on motorway due to bad road surfacing and being constantly jolted around. If it was motorway all the way, it would be a totally different story.


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    #85
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    dub_commuter wrote: »
    That is down to the moderators - stop the back seat moderating.

    Discussion about Aircoach is related to this topic as they operate a similar service.

    You are the one talking about Aircoach having toilets when clearly people are wondering if GoBus will have toilets. The poster above you was merely stating this.


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    #86
    dub_commuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭dub_commuter


    No - I was replying to xOxSinéadxOx who suggested there was toilets.


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    #87
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dub_commuter wrote: »
    No - I was replying to xOxSinéadxOx who suggested there was toilets.

    Aircoach normally don't have toilets (and wouldn't make sense on their shorter Dublin routes), but it is possible they have one or two buses with toilets or perhaps they contracted in an extra bus from another company to cover breakdown etc.

    Or perhaps they are preparing for competition with this new service.


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    #88
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    Do buses going from Cork to DUblin really need toilets? Is it really that hard for people to control their bladders? Just 'Go' before you go.:p

    Even if it is a problem. All they have to do is stop at a rest stop on the way up for 10-15 minutes.


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    #89
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Do buses going from Cork to DUblin really need toilets? Is it really that hard for people to control their bladders? Just 'Go' before you go.

    Lots of people can't wait 3+ hours. And even if they could, it's not comfortable and no-one wants to be uncomfortable for over 3 hours.


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    #90
    BazNuge
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭BazNuge


    devnull wrote: »
    How busy was each bus out of curiosity? I'm just wondering for reasons to how many people are going full distance and who are not.

    Only saw the Direct, but was i'd say 1/2 - 2/3rd's full. Definitely could have had more. But I didn't know they did direct until I got there. Its as if they have a problem with advertising their direct service.


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    #91
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    markpb wrote: »
    Lots of people can't wait 3+ hours. And even if they could, it's not comfortable and no-one wants to be uncomfortable for over 3 hours.

    Just go before hand?


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