Was the Republican campaign justifiable?

Fiatach · 13-12-2011 12:15am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Come back to me when you want to debate without petty insults and fiction.

Have you found a war yet which had no civilian casulties? Look at the Tan War for instance. The majority of deaths caused by Irish Republicans from 1969 onwards was around 1,100 British forces, armed to the teeth. It was the longest armed campaign the British military faced in their entire history.

Fiatach · 13-12-2011 12:19am

I think this thread should be in the military section as it was a military campaign carried out by the 32 county Irish army.

Liam Byrne · 13-12-2011 12:20am

Fiatach wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Come back to me when you want to debate without petty insults and fiction.

Have you found a war yet which had no civilian casulties? Look at the Tan War for instance. The majority of deaths caused by Irish Republicans from 1969 onwards was around 1,100 British forces, armed to the teeth. It was the longest armed campaign the British military faced in their entire history.

1,100 is a "majority" over 1,000 - the 1,000 is still completely unacceptable and could easily have been avoided had cowards not left bombs in crowded shopping areas while they scarpered off home to safety.

If you want to engage an enemy, then work away.....but do not murder innocent people.

Fiatach · 13-12-2011 12:26am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

1,100 is a "majority" over 1,000 - the 1,000 is still completely unacceptable and could easily have been avoided had cowards not left bombs in crowded shopping areas while they scarpered off home to safety.

If you want to engage an enemy, then work away.....but do not murder innocent people.

I dont think the IRA killed 1000 civilians. They detonated tens of thousands of bombs and the figure of civilian causlties is quite low for a 30 year campaign. But I agree with you, the economic war put too many innocents at risk and should have been halted the first time a bombing operation went wrong. Thankfully bombing economic targets and expecting the enemy to clear the area of civilians is a thing of the past as they used it to their advantage.

Liam Byrne · 13-12-2011 12:41am

Fiatach wrote: »

I dont think the IRA killed 1000 civilians. They detonated tens of thousands of bombs and the figure of civilian causlties is quite low for a 30 year campaign. But I agree with you, the economic war put too many innocents at risk and should have been halted the first time a bombing operation went wrong. Thankfully bombing economic targets and expecting the enemy to clear the area of civilians is a thing of the past as they used it to their advantage.

OK - I'm out. Too much apologist phrasing that for me to be able to stomach.

junder · 13-12-2011 2:25am

Fiatach wrote: »

jiffybag wrote: »

Not a clue do you have OP .

I can still smell the burning flesh , still hear the screams and still taste the horror that was the Omagh bomb . If you ever get that close to such horror and can still be proud to be a Republican or what ever then you have no morals or no soul!

All this done at 3pm on a busy Saturday afternoon in the name of a free Ireland . Balls!! Murders and nothing more !

Do you think Irish Republicans set out to kill people in a mainly nationalist town like Omagh? As I said lessons of mistakes like Omagh seem to be learned, bombs in town centres are thankfully a thing of the past.

According to the HET team in the Case of Enniskillen the ira did indeed set out to kill civilians

Fratton Fred · 13-12-2011 8:03am

Fiatach wrote: »

I dont think the IRA killed 1000 civilians. They detonated tens of thousands of bombs and the figure of civilian causlties is quite low for a 30 year campaign. But I agree with you, the economic war put too many innocents at risk and should have been halted the first time a bombing operation went wrong. Thankfully bombing economic targets and expecting the enemy to clear the area of civilians is a thing of the past as they used it to their advantage.

Economic war? What is that?

Last I heard they were fought with tariffs and embargos. Who did Irish terrorists fight an economic war?

LordSutch · 13-12-2011 1:21pm

Not sure that we should be feeding this 'Fiatach' character, he seems to be a new strain of PIRA supporter thats even more impervious to normal sensibilities than the previous crop. Mentally he seems to have been locked in an ice block (similar to Wesley Snipes in Demolition man), a man from the past, with brutish ideas, and who supports the murderous ideas from the past too.

I am steering well clear of that one!

maccored · 13-12-2011 2:08pm

junder wrote: »

According to the HET team in the Case of Enniskillen the ira did indeed set out to kill civilians

The HET team? Isnt that the boys employed by themselves to investigate themselves? The Historical Enquiries Team is laughable in that it is a unit of the PSNI. Very fair Im sure.

KeithAFC · 13-12-2011 3:12pm

maccored wrote: »

The HET team? Isnt that the boys employed by themselves to investigate themselves? The Historical Enquiries Team is laughable in that it is a unit of the PSNI. Very fair Im sure.

The PSNI is supported by Sinn Fein. If it doesn't fit in with the Republican view point, it is biased and not worth taking note of.

Fratton Fred · 13-12-2011 3:26pm

maccored wrote: »

The HET team? Isnt that the boys employed by themselves to investigate themselves? The Historical Enquiries Team is laughable in that it is a unit of the PSNI. Very fair Im sure.

The HET team is the one that we like if it says things we want to hear and ridicule when it doesn't. Simples.

trendyvicar · 13-12-2011 3:31pm

What firm historical conclusions has HET reached so far?

maccored · 13-12-2011 4:50pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

The PSNI is supported by Sinn Fein. If it doesn't fit in with the Republican view point, it is biased and not worth taking note of.

SF have never agreed with HET. From day one they said it was too biased - and as usual were ignored

Fratton Fred wrote:

The HET team is the one that we like if it says things we want to hear and ridicule when it doesn't. Simples.

Its completely up to you Fratton Fred, what you say and when. Simples. (I am assuming the 'we' you refer to is yourself)

KeithAFC · 13-12-2011 6:02pm

maccored wrote: »

SF have never agreed with HET. From day one they said it was too biased - and as usual were ignored

Its completely up to you Fratton Fred, what you say and when. Simples. (I am assuming the 'we' you refer to is yourself)

Sinn Fein talk for effect. They say they want an international independent inquiry and yet we all know they are bluffing because it would look really bad on Sinn Fein and are just saying it because they know the British government doesn't want one.

Sinn Fein though support the PSNI. Unless it supports a Republican view point which they agree with (Bloody Sunday for example), they don't want to know.

Hannibal · 13-12-2011 7:05pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Sinn Fein talk for effect. They say they want an international independent inquiry and yet we all know they are bluffing because it would look really bad on Sinn Fein and are just saying it because they know the British government doesn't want one.

Sinn Fein though support the PSNI. Unless it supports a Republican view point which they agree with (Bloody Sunday for example), they don't want to know.

Keith there's no republican point of view on Bloody Sunday, people have always known what happened and the fact the British army murdered 26 unarmed civilians.

SF were the first party to call for an independent truth commission in 2008. You're right in saying the British government don't want one and it's because they have far more to hide about their involvement than republicans ever will, the extent on which their collusion extended into the troubles is something that would cause great embarassment for them if it were to come to light.

SF supports the PSNI because they recognise the fact that for any functioning society to work it needs a police force that's reliable, unbiased and fair across all communities which is precisely why the RUC was disbanded.

trendyvicar · 13-12-2011 7:27pm

Dotsey wrote: »

Keith there's no republican point of view on Bloody Sunday, people have always known what happened and the fact the British army murdered 26 unarmed civilians.

SF were the first party to call for an independent truth commission in 2008. You're right in saying the British government don't want one and it's because they have far more to hide about their involvement than republicans ever will, the extent on which their collusion extended into the troubles is something that would cause great embarassment for them if it were to come to light.

SF supports the PSNI because they recognise the fact that for any functioning society to work it needs a police force that's reliable, unbiased and fair across all communities which is precisely why the RUC was disbanded.

I doubt SF want details on all those Republican murders (over 2000 of them) put into the public domain, including, not only details on those who pulled triggers and planted bombs, but also those who gave the orders. There's quite a number of Republicans now who have substantial personal assets that PIRA victims could attack in the civil courts. Not to mention the time those involved might have to serve in jail, even if released early.

By the way, The RUC wasn't disbanded, it was incorporated into The PSNI, having been awarded The George Cross - The UK's highest civilian award for valour.

KeithAFC · 13-12-2011 7:43pm

trendyvicar wrote: »

I doubt SF want details on all those Republican murders (over 2000 of them) put into the public domain, including, not only details on those who pulled triggers and planted bombs, but also those who gave the orders. There's quite a number of Republicans now who have substantial personal assets that PIRA victims could attack in the civil courts. Not to mention the time those involved might have to serve in jail, even if released early.

By the way, The RUC wasn't disbanded, it was incorporated into The PSNI, having been awarded The George Cross - The UK's highest civilian award for valour.

Not to mention Gerry Adams and his disappearing squad and Martin and his expertise in bombing.

To say the British Government have far more to hide than Sinn Fein is just nonsense. Sinn Fein have a lot of dirty "secrets".

Fiatach · 13-12-2011 8:11pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK - I'm out. Too much apologist phrasing that for me to be able to stomach.

Id say the real reason is you were caught out inventing civilian casulties to score points in an online debate :cool:

Fiatach · 13-12-2011 8:13pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Economic war? What is that?

Last I heard they were fought with tariffs and embargos. Who did Irish terrorists fight an economic war?

Strategic bombing is a military tactic in Economic warfare.

junder · 13-12-2011 9:16pm

Dotsey wrote: »

KeithAFC wrote: »

Sinn Fein talk for effect. They say they want an international independent inquiry and yet we all know they are bluffing because it would look really bad on Sinn Fein and are just saying it because they know the British government doesn't want one.

Sinn Fein though support the PSNI. Unless it supports a Republican view point which they agree with (Bloody Sunday for example), they don't want to know.

Keith there's no republican point of view on Bloody Sunday, people have always known what happened and the fact the British army murdered 26 unarmed civilians.

SF were the first party to call for an independent truth commission in 2008. You're right in saying the British government don't want one and it's because they have far more to hide about their involvement than republicans ever will, the extent on which their collusion extended into the troubles is something that would cause great embarassment for them if it were to come to light.

SF supports the PSNI because they recognise the fact that for any functioning society to work it needs a police force that's reliable, unbiased and fair across all communities which is precisely why the RUC was disbanded.

As I have already pointed out sinn fein are playing a double bluff with thus call for a truth commission, they are calling for because the are safe in the knowledge that the British government won't call one, last thing sinn fein wants is those all those new voters finding out exactly how blood thirsty the pira really are.

junder · 13-12-2011 9:19pm

maccored wrote: »

junder wrote: »

According to the HET team in the Case of Enniskillen the ira did indeed set out to kill civilians

The HET team? Isnt that the boys employed by themselves to investigate themselves? The Historical Enquiries Team is laughable in that it is a unit of the PSNI. Very fair Im sure.

So you wil disregard all findings of the HET team?

Fratton Fred · 13-12-2011 9:33pm

Fiatach wrote: »

Strategic bombing is a military tactic in Economic warfare.

Yes I suppose it is, if you bomb economic targets.

The vast majority, if not all, civilians killed by Irish Terrorists were not killed by any form of economic war though or through the bombing of economic targets.

laoch na mona · 13-12-2011 9:46pm

do unionists accept nationalists right to have a different political opinion?
I can accept unionism(non militant style) can ye accept nationalism(non militant style)
(this is a genuine question so please don't take any offence none is intended )

KeithAFC · 13-12-2011 9:49pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

do unionists accept nationalists right to have a different political opinion?
I can accept unionism(non militant style) can ye accept nationalism(non militant style)
(this is a genuine question so please don't take any offence none is intended )

Yes. It is up to Republicanism to accept that some people are Unionists/Loyalists/Ulster nationalists.

laoch na mona · 13-12-2011 9:54pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yes. It is up to Republicanism to accept that some people are Unionists/Loyalists/Ulster nationalists.

you had to work in an insult? most nationalists do it was a sinn fein mayor who celebrated the 300th anniversary of the siege of derry or londonderry if you prefer

KeithAFC · 13-12-2011 10:05pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

you had to work in an insult? most nationalists do it was a sinn fein mayor who celebrated the 300th anniversary of the siege of derry or londonderry if you prefer

What is the point you are making? A Sinn Fein mayor only recently insulted a young cadet because he thought it would look bad to fellow Republicans and ended up embarrassing himself.

laoch na mona · 13-12-2011 10:11pm

im saying give nationalists a chance don't judge us all as one

Fiatach · 13-12-2011 10:18pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes I suppose it is, if you bomb economic targets.

The vast majority, if not all, civilians killed by Irish Terrorists were not killed by any form of economic war though or through the bombing of economic targets.

How where they killed then, and what statistics can you show to back this up?

Fratton Fred · 13-12-2011 10:32pm

Fiatach wrote: »

How where they killed then, and what statistics can you show to back this up?

They were murdered in terrorist attacks.

laoch na mona · 13-12-2011 10:37pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They were murdered in terrorist attacks.

like the dublin and monaghan bombs?

Fiatach · 13-12-2011 10:37pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They were murdered in terrorist attacks.

No stats then, plucked from your mighty cranium.

Fratton Fred · 13-12-2011 10:40pm

Fiatach wrote: »

No stats then, plucked from your mighty cranium.

What stats are you looking for? Are you trying to claim that Irish Terrorists didn't kill civilians?

Fratton Fred · 13-12-2011 10:42pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

like the dublin and monaghan bombs?

Can you name a war where civilians aren't killed.........

laoch na mona · 13-12-2011 10:45pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Can you name a war where civilians aren't killed.........

no but you keep condemning republicans when unionists and army and the police and the b specials did the same lets move one

Fratton Fred · 13-12-2011 10:51pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

no but you keep condemning republicans when unionists and army and the police and the b specials did the same lets move one

To be honest, I'm interested in this concept of Economic Warfare. It seems to be a way kids can justify idolising a terrorist organisation.

Writing off an attack on a restaurant, a shopping centre or a pub as economic warfare is simply trying to justify cold blooded murder, just as claiming the Dublin or Monaghan bombs were economic.

laoch na mona · 13-12-2011 10:54pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

To be honest, I'm interested in this concept of Economic Warfare. It seems to be a way kids can justify idolising a terrorist organisation.

Writing off an attack on a restaurant, a shopping centre or a pub as economic warfare is simply trying to justify cold blooded murder, just as claiming the Dublin or Monaghan bombs were economic.

you want the other lad (i think he's crazy)
when your not being oppressed there is no need for violence

snafuk35 · 13-12-2011 10:56pm

What happened in Northern Ireland is the sectarian and political conflict was created by sociopathic personalities at every level of authority on both sides who got off on power and manipulation. They sowed hatred in the hearts of impressionable young people and drove them against each other. The vast majority of ordinary people were waiting for which way the wind blew while keeping the head down and waiting until it had to end.

What says it all is how many innocent Catholics and members of the IRA were killed by the IRA itself and how few IRA members the UVF and other loyalist groups actually killed instead of the vast majority of innocent Catholic victims they did kill. The UVF killed more their members before you start counting the numbers of IRA members they killed.

The numbers of innocent Catholics killed by the British security forces shows how they came to either equate them with the IRA or that killing them would embarrass the IRA into action.

You basically had sociopaths in the IRA, sociopaths in the loyalist community and sociopaths in London involved in a Mexican stand off.

The ordinary people of Northern Ireland payed the price.

And for what? The egos of self-seeking power mad retards on all sides.

The conflict only ended not because right won out in the end but because it was politically expedient.

laoch na mona · 13-12-2011 11:07pm

snafuk35 wrote: »

What happened in Northern Ireland is the sectarian and political conflict was created by sociopathic personalities at every level of authority on both sides who got off on power and manipulation. They sowed hatred in the hearts of impressionable young people and drove them against each other. The vast majority of ordinary people were waiting for which way the wind blew while keeping the head down and waiting until it had to end.

What says it all is how many innocent Catholics and members of the IRA were killed by the IRA itself and how few IRA members the UVF and other loyalist groups actually killed instead of the vast majority of innocent Catholic victims they did kill. The UVF killed more their members before you start counting the numbers of IRA members they killed.

The numbers of innocent Catholics killed by the British security forces shows how they came to either equate them with the IRA or that killing them would embarrass the IRA into action.

You basically had sociopaths in the IRA, sociopaths in the loyalist community and sociopaths in London involved in a Mexican stand off.

The ordinary people of Northern Ireland payed the price.

And for what? The egos of self-seeking power mad retards on all sides.

The conflict only ended not because right won out in the end but because it was politically expedient.

you sir are a genius

Fiatach · 13-12-2011 11:13pm

snafuk35 wrote: »

What happened in Northern Ireland is the sectarian and political conflict was created by sociopathic personalities at every level of authority on both sides who got off on power and manipulation. They sowed hatred in the hearts of impressionable young people and drove them against each other. The vast majority of ordinary people were waiting for which way the wind blew while keeping the head down and waiting until it had to end.

What says it all is how many innocent Catholics and members of the IRA were killed by the IRA itself and how few IRA members the UVF and other loyalist groups actually killed instead of the vast majority of innocent Catholic victims they did kill. The UVF killed more their members before you start counting the numbers of IRA members they killed.

The numbers of innocent Catholics killed by the British security forces shows how they came to either equate them with the IRA or that killing them would embarrass the IRA into action.

You basically had sociopaths in the IRA, sociopaths in the loyalist community and sociopaths in London involved in a Mexican stand off.

The ordinary people of Northern Ireland payed the price.

And for what? The egos of self-seeking power mad retards on all sides.

The conflict only ended not because right won out in the end but because it was politically expedient.

In one fell swoop you have managed to airbrush from history one of the two main belligerent's in the conflict, the British army and its allies, who suffered over 1,100 casulties.

trendyvicar · 13-12-2011 11:14pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

no but you keep condemning republicans when unionists and army and the police and the b specials did the same lets move one

The first step Nationalists need to make when moving on is to stop grouping the activities of the security forces in with Republican/Loyalist paramilitaries. There is no quantitative/qualitative comparison.

trendyvicar · 13-12-2011 11:16pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

you want the other lad (i think he's crazy)
when your not being oppressed there is no need for violence

Resistance to oppression should be proportionate.

Fiatach · 13-12-2011 11:18pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What stats are you looking for? Are you trying to claim that Irish Terrorists didn't kill civilians?

The legitimate army of Ireland did kill civilians in some bombing raids which had gone wrong. They let of tens of thousands of bombs usually giving warnings to clear the area of civilians to inflict damage to infrastructure and economic assets. Civilians were not the targets or there would have been no warnings.

trendyvicar · 13-12-2011 11:19pm

snafuk35 wrote: »

What happened in Northern Ireland is the sectarian and political conflict was created by sociopathic personalities at every level of authority on both sides who got off on power and manipulation. They sowed hatred in the hearts of impressionable young people and drove them against each other. The vast majority of ordinary people were waiting for which way the wind blew while keeping the head down and waiting until it had to end.

What says it all is how many innocent Catholics and members of the IRA were killed by the IRA itself and how few IRA members the UVF and other loyalist groups actually killed instead of the vast majority of innocent Catholic victims they did kill. The UVF killed more their members before you start counting the numbers of IRA members they killed.

The numbers of innocent Catholics killed by the British security forces shows how they came to either equate them with the IRA or that killing them would embarrass the IRA into action.

You basically had sociopaths in the IRA, sociopaths in the loyalist community and sociopaths in London involved in a Mexican stand off.

The ordinary people of Northern Ireland payed the price.

And for what? The egos of self-seeking power mad retards on all sides.

The conflict only ended not because right won out in the end but because it was politically expedient.

Can you substantiate that ludicrous claim?

Fiatach · 13-12-2011 11:21pm

trendyvicar wrote: »

The first step Nationalists need to make when moving on is to stop grouping the activities of the security forces in with Republican/Loyalist paramilitaries. There is no quantitative/qualitative comparison.

The British government colluded with Loyalist paramilitaries. The UDR hailed as a 'security force' was a infested with Loyalist terrorists. The Miami showband masacre is one circumstance which proves that.

laoch na mona · 13-12-2011 11:23pm

trendyvicar wrote: »

Resistance to oppression should be proportionate.

i think you will find it was Britain cast the first stone

Fear Uladh · 13-12-2011 11:28pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

terrorist organisation

Your wonderful government know all about colluding with a number of so-called terrorist organisations.

trendyvicar · 13-12-2011 11:44pm

Fiatach wrote: »

The British government colluded with Loyalist paramilitaries. The UDR hailed as a 'security force' was a infested with Loyalist terrorists. The Miami showband masacre is one circumstance which proves that.

Saying something doesn't make it true. Saying something repeatedly (as all Irish Nationalists repeatedly do) still doesn't make it true.

trendyvicar · 13-12-2011 11:46pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

i think you will find it was Britain cast the first stone

What does your statement have to do with mine?

Fiatach · 14-12-2011 12:22am

trendyvicar wrote: »

Saying something doesn't make it true. Saying something repeatedly (as all Irish Nationalists repeatedly do) still doesn't make it true.

Its not just me saying it. 'Brigadier' David Millar 'OBE' stated if he sacked members of the UDR because they were loyalist paramilitaries he would be left without a regiment.

Liam Byrne · 14-12-2011 12:30am

Fiatach wrote: »

.... the British army and its allies, who suffered over 1,100 casulties.

So much for your pretence of disliking exaggerated claims!

621[2]-644,[3] civilians killed by Provisional IRA.
188 civilians killed by British forces.[4]

1,000 is a lot closer to 644 than 1,100 is to 118.

But don't let the facts stand in your way of absolute and utter drivel.

Was the Republican campaign justifiable?

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