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Was the Republican campaign justifiable?
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They would have been wiped out anyway, adhering or not adhering. Without NATO support the rebels would have found it very difficult to win unless there was mass defections from the army, which seemed unlikely.
That's debatable really. And almost pointless because neither of us have any way of verifying how much support they may have had if there were a guerilla campaign instead. I certainly believe it possible large regions of the country could have been made no-go areas for Libyan troops. That's what the IRA never achieved - not even in South Armagh because the BA could still get around by helicopter. Once they did that it could have ended with gaddafi standing down eventually or even partitionAgain they didn't adhere to these things as a way of winning, they adhered to them (imperfectly as you point out) as a statement of legitimacy. They won because of NATO air support (something they probably wouldn't have gotten without legitimacy).
To say they would have been utterly destroyed if they adhered to the rules of war is not to say they did it as a way of winning so you're misrepresenting me with that first sentence. I think they did it because they could but if they didnt have the nato backing they would have been wiped out or would have had to change methods. and I therefore ask if changing their tactics would have made their cause less legitimate?
and I don't agree at all about nato. I think those in charge of the big countries wanted rid of Gaddafi and would have assisted the ntc with any armed campaign - though perhaps not as openly so if it were a guerilla campaign. civillians being massacred in other nations you don't see any nato air strikes
To bring back to my original point - adhering to rules of war essentially means the ones in charge will win no matter how rotten the government. even trendyvicar who i posted it to accepted that somewhat0 -
Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »That's debatable really. And almost pointless because neither of us have any way of verifying how much support they may have had if there were a guerilla campaign instead. I certainly believe it possible large regions of the country could have been made no-go areas for Libyan troops. That's what the IRA never achieved - not even in South Armagh because the BA could still get around by helicopter. Once they did that it could have ended with gaddafi standing down eventually or even partition
To say they would have been utterly destroyed if they adhered to the rules of war is not to say they did it as a way of winning so you're misrepresenting me with that first sentence. I think they did it because they could but if they didnt have the nato backing they would have been wiped out or would have had to change methods. and I therefore ask if changing their tactics would have made their cause less legitimate?
and I don't agree at all about nato. I think those in charge of the big countries wanted rid of Gaddafi and would have assisted the ntc with any armed campaign - though perhaps not as openly so if it were a guerilla campaign. civillians being massacred in other nations you don't see any nato air strikes
To bring back to my original point - adhering to rules of war essentially means the ones in charge will win no matter how rotten the government. even trendyvicar who i posted it to accepted that somewhat
You raise a number of points.
Firstly, you seem to indicate that the ends justify the means. Ditch the rules of war and win? Is that what you're saying regardless of all other factors?
Of course, evil has to be weighed in the balance. The Jews in Warsaw had a bit more of a right to ditch the rules of war than The Provos. I'm not an absolutist.
Ultimately, it comes down to the nature and magnitude of the evil you're opposing. To a degree, this influences what actions may be taken.
Unfortunately for PIRA, they failed this test as well.0 -
The British Army, RUC, UVF, Unionist political parties etc all followed similar paths in alienating the other side of the community. Whether it was through the shooting dead of unarmed civilians, widespread collusion and in the case of the political parties they were putting out beliefs to their people that were rooted in hatred. Most unionists/loyalists always miss the point in why the IRA returned to military action in 1969 and the events in the previous years in the apartheid protestant state particularly in the period from 1966 to 1969.trendyvicar wrote: »The IRA made a fundamental strategic mistake in that they failed to distinguish between an operating environment in which they had at least the passive support of the majority of the population (as in The Irish War of Independence) and one in which they had only (at least) the passive support of a third of the population, as in Northern Ireland. Worse than that, within Northern Ireland they were aggressively opposed by two thirds of the population, who not only hated their methods, but also despised their goals. This was a recipe for disaster.
Fundamentally, of course, it came down to The IRA not having a majority mandate within Northern Ireland - in other words they failed the democratic test.
Tragically for Irish Nationalism, The IRA's campaign solidified Unionist opposition to any form of United Ireland, something that is unlikely to disappear anytime soon, if ever. Not only did The IRA fail to deliver Irish Unity, but they completely queered the pitch for moderate, non-violent Nationalism. No amount of votes on The Falls Road, or limited electoral success in The Irish Republic will change this reality.
Even better, from a Unionist point of view, is that SF continues to celebrate PIRA 'martyrs' and engages in other 'tribalistic' behaviour, continuously reminding Unionists of what they believe and why. This process is aided by rejectionist Republicans continuing to engage in violence.
You had a situation were loyalist secterian violence was targeted against nationalist communities and resulted in many nationalists being run out of their homes. Discrimination was widespread across the board on issues regarding housing, voting and getting jobs. There was the gerrymandering of electoral districts in order to make sure nationalists were under-represented. It was essentially as the slogan went a "Protestant state for a protestant people" and to hell with the then other third of the population.
SF may celebrate some IRA martyrs but for you critices them from engaging in tribalistic behaviour is beyond belief. This tribalistic behaviour you alledge from them is nothing compared to the secterian, triumphalist, supremacist and fascist beliefs that the orange order and the DUP have spit out. The change is voting demographs has unionists worried because they know the pendulam is swinging against them and it's coming sooner rather than later.0 -
The IRA showed restraint. They had/have the capacity to drench London with HCN-Warheads, they didn't. They had/have the capacity to remove half of London from the map with thermobaric bombs, they didn't. A 10,000lb bomb was debated for Birmingham in 1997 - that would've torn the heart out of that city - it was abandoned and the IRA chose peace - for the better of the people they were protecting and to unify the Country over a longer arc.
In the end, its primary concern were the Nationalists of the 06 Counties. Thats who the IRA protected, and the IRA was who they looked to for protection. When people are attacked, its okay to talk crap and pontificate, i.e. free staters or the OIRA, but it was the IRA whom the 06 Nationalists embraced because they didn't condescend from the safety of Wexford, they acted. Should there be a repeat of British aggression, it'll be the same quarters the Nationalist Community will look to - The IRA. Not Dissidents, not holier-than-though know-nothings, experienced less Southerners, not the British army, not the UN.... The IRA.
Like it or not, in the 06 we overwhelmingly voted for the IRA's political wing. Its a stupid question anyway. Is defending your house from burglary justifiable? What else do you do when a mob comes to burn your house? If the IRA has any lamentable tendencies, they certainly learned it from the 'Irish Republic' and its blood-soaked foundation.0 -
the IRA wether its the old,official,provo,continuity,real ...........................derives its mandate from the british presence in ireland. so yes the provo campaign was justified. as long as britian violates irish soverignity then men will take arms against that violation.
thats not my opinion just a view of how the ira would see it.0 -
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The British Army, RUC, UVF, Unionist political parties etc all followed similar paths in alienating the other side of the community. Whether it was through the shooting dead of unarmed civilians, widespread collusion and in the case of the political parties they were putting out beliefs to their people that were rooted in hatred. Most unionists/loyalists always miss the point in why the IRA returned to military action in 1969 and the events in the previous years in the apartheid protestant state particularly in the period from 1966 to 1969.
You had a situation were loyalist secterian violence was targeted against nationalist communities and resulted in many nationalists being run out of their homes. Discrimination was widespread across the board on issues regarding housing, voting and getting jobs. There was the gerrymandering of electoral districts in order to make sure nationalists were under-represented. It was essentially as the slogan went a "Protestant state for a protestant people" and to hell with the then other third of the population.
SF may celebrate some IRA martyrs but for you critices them from engaging in tribalistic behaviour is beyond belief. This tribalistic behaviour you alledge from them is nothing compared to the secterian, triumphalist, supremacist and fascist beliefs that the orange order and the DUP have spit out. The change is voting demographs has unionists worried because they know the pendulam is swinging against them and it's coming sooner rather than later.
You seem to see PIRA as some form of militant civil rights campaigners.
There is no indication that voters in NI would support Irish Unity - none whatsoever. In Stormont it is meaningless who has the largest number of seats - The Belfast Agreement insured that - a double veto exists.0 -
Border-Rat wrote: »The IRA showed restraint. They had/have the capacity to drench London with HCN-Warheads, they didn't. They had/have the capacity to remove half of London from the map with thermobaric bombs, they didn't. A 10,000lb bomb was debated for Birmingham in 1997 - that would've torn the heart out of that city - it was abandoned and the IRA chose peace - for the better of the people they were protecting and to unify the Country over a longer arc.
In the end, its primary concern were the Nationalists of the 06 Counties. Thats who the IRA protected, and the IRA was who they looked to for protection. When people are attacked, its okay to talk crap and pontificate, i.e. free staters or the OIRA, but it was the IRA whom the 06 Nationalists embraced because they didn't condescend from the safety of Wexford, they acted. Should there be a repeat of British aggression, it'll be the same quarters the Nationalist Community will look to - The IRA. Not Dissidents, not holier-than-though know-nothings, experienced less Southerners, not the British army, not the UN.... The IRA.
Like it or not, in the 06 we overwhelmingly voted for the IRA's political wing. Its a stupid question anyway. Is defending your house from burglary justifiable? What else do you do when a mob comes to burn your house? If the IRA has any lamentable tendencies, they certainly learned it from the 'Irish Republic' and its blood-soaked foundation.
Nice one! LOL. What if The UK had unleashed it's nuclear, biological and chemical arsenal against The Irish Republic? LOL
What if The UK had unleashed it's entire armed forces against The Nationalist population in NI with a view to expulsion/extermination?
Madness...0 -
Border-Rat wrote: ». Should there be a repeat of British aggression, it'll be the same quarters the Nationalist Community will look to - The IRA. Not Dissidents, not holier-than-though know-nothings, experienced less Southerners, not the British army, not the.[/QUOTE
if the provos support the cops and their bed fellows in british military intel how could they possibly be called on to help the irish in the 06
the ira didnt start or end with the provos. its been around since the war of independence and it continues to exist since the 1997 surrneder. the provos were right to attack british interests in ireland just like sean south and the men of the border campaign were right to attack the british and just like the lads of today are right to challenge the british establishment in ireland today.0 -
round tower huntsman wrote: »the IRA wether its the old,official,provo,continuity,real ...........................derives its mandate from the british presence in ireland. so yes the provo campaign was justified. as long as britian violates irish soverignity then men will take arms against that violation.
thats not my opinion just a view of how the ira would see it.
They're not getting very far. Why do you think that is?0 -
trendyvicar wrote: »You raise a number of points.
Firstly, you seem to indicate that the ends justify the means. Ditch the rules of war and win? Is that what you're saying regardless of all other factors?
Of course, evil has to be weighed in the balance. The Jews in Warsaw had a bit more of a right to ditch the rules of war than The Provos. I'm not an absolutist.
Ultimately, it comes down to the nature and magnitude of the evil you're opposing. To a degree, this influences what actions may be taken.
Unfortunately for PIRA, they failed this test as well.
To be honest I wasn't even arguing that point in the context of the IRA. Just the issue about rules of war and internal conflicts where the state is far more powerful than the insurgents0 -
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Agree. I can't believe that nonsense. As if the PIRA was like the US Army and could wipe out London if they wanted. Lets get real.trendyvicar wrote: »Nice one! LOL. What if The UK had unleashed it's nuclear, biological and chemical arsenal against The Irish Republic? LOL
What if The UK had unleashed it's entire armed forces against The Nationalist population in NI with a view to expulsion/extermination?
Madness...
The PIRA was actually losing ground and support and is the main reason they surrendered and dropped the gun.0 -
Border-Rat wrote: »The IRA showed restraint. They had/have the capacity to drench London with HCN-Warheads, they didn't. They had/have the capacity to remove half of London from the map with thermobaric bombs, they didn't. A 10,000lb bomb was debated for Birmingham in 1997 - that would've torn the heart out of that city - it was abandoned and the IRA chose peace - for the better of the people they were protecting and to unify the Country over a longer arc.
WOW! jee wizz, almost like a mini Superpower :rolleyes:
And let me remind you that if the Armed forces (Army, Navy & RAF) had really got stuck in then they would laid waste to everything North & South in about three days flat, (but it wasnt a proper war), it was a terorist campaign, cunningly & cynically waged by the PIRA (No mandate to murder) who lived among the population.0 -
WOW! jee wizz, almost like a mini Superpower :rolleyes:
And let me remind you that if the Armed forces (Army, Navy & RAF) had really got stuck in then they would laid waste to everything North & South in about three days flat, (but it wasnt a proper war), it was a terorist campaign, cunningly & cynically waged by the PIRA (No mandate to murder) who lived among the population.
Why bother the army and air force when one submarine could render the entire island a radioactive wasteland in about fifteen minutes?0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »Why bother the army and air force when one submarine could render the entire island a radioactive wasteland in about fifteen minutes?
And have millions of people of Irish heritage who live in Britain enraged and ready to fight for their brethren?
No. The British knew that the harder they pushed the fiercer would be the push back.
They long ago accepted that they couldn't defeat the IRA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHKFzPmDjAo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRJGfe0k7rI0 -
This is turning into serious Walter Mitty type territory tbh, can we drop that side of things please and focus on the OP.
I'd also point out that mature discussion etc. is totally acceptable, but as per our charter, glorification etc. of violence isn't.
Cheers
DrG0 -
trendyvicar wrote: »Nice one! LOL. What if The UK had unleashed it's nuclear, biological and chemical arsenal against The Irish Republic? LOL
What if The UK had unleashed it's entire armed forces against The Nationalist population in NI with a view to expulsion/extermination?
Madness...
Probably would've been a response from Irish-America. Oppenheimer and the CIA have confirmed the PIRA had/have thermobaric explosive technology, that was the entire reason for the Columbian fiasco. Are you denying that a 10,000lb bomb was constructed and planned for Birmingham in 1997?
The point remains, anyway. When Britains finest were running around shooting children, the IRA didn't reciprocate.0 -
Border-Rat wrote: »Probably would've been a response from Irish-America. Oppenheimer and the CIA have confirmed the PIRA had/have thermobaric explosive technology, that was the entire reason for the Columbian fiasco. Are you denying that a 10,000lb bomb was constructed and planned for Birmingham in 1997?
The point remains, anyway. When Britains finest were running around shooting children, the IRA didn't reciprocate.
No, no there wouldn't. Do you honestly think America's largest NATO ally woukd have been held accountable for retaliating to the sort of bomb your talking about?
Christ almighty, you've gone off into cloud ****ing cuckoo land.
And I'm sure the scores of children the IRA killed were thankful for the IRA's benevolence.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »No, no there wouldn't. Do you honestly think America's largest NATO ally woukd have been held accountable for retaliating to the sort of bomb your talking about?
Christ almighty, you've gone off into cloud ****ing cuckoo land.
And I'm sure the scores of children the IRA killed were thankful for the IRA's benevolence.
I think its called being delusional0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »No, no there wouldn't. Do you honestly think America's largest NATO ally woukd have been held accountable for retaliating to the sort of bomb your talking about?
Christ almighty, you've gone off into cloud ****ing cuckoo land.
Learn to read. He said: 'What if' Britons started wiping out Catholics in the North. I said that would not go without an International response. And it wouldn't have.And I'm sure the scores of children the IRA killed were thankful for the IRA's benevolence.
Like the instances were English terrorists took weapons from IRA caches, shot children, put the weapons back, then told people the IRA were killing their own using ballistic reports as evidence?0 -
Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »I think its called being delusional
So let me get this straight, wholesale ethnic cleansing in the 06 Counties wouldn't have had a response Internationally (And from the IRA)? Right, who is being delusional?0 -
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Border-Rat wrote: »So let me get this straight, wholesale ethnic cleansing in the 06 Counties wouldn't have had a response Internationally (And from the IRA)? Right, who is being delusional?
You because wholesale ethnic cleansing by the Brits would never have happened0 -
Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »You because wholesale ethnic cleansing by the Brits would never have happened
It wasn't me who said that it would, or even theorised it as fantasy :rolleyes:
Anyway, I find it funny that Britons and/or their sympathisers regularly enjoy a good old Nationalist/Republican witch-hunt (Though always careful to isolate it to 06 County Republicanism, 26 County Republicanism is to be heralded). And that the death of minors is one of their swinging sticks. Lets just take a look at their track record here;
- Patrick Barnard (13), Dungannon, Co. Tyrone, killed along with James McCaughey (13) and three adult Catholics in British paramilitary car bomb attack.
- Daniel Barrett (15), Ardoyne, Belfast; shot in his home from a nearby BA observation post.
- Martha Campbell (13), Ballymurphy Road, Belfast, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Michael Patrick Connors (14), Central Belfast, shot along with John Mahon by British soldiers at a checkpoint.
- Patrick Crawford (15), West Belfast, while walking with two others, shot by British soldiers.
- James Cromie (13), Belfast, killed along with fourteen other Catholics by British paramilitary car bomb outside McGurk’s Pub.
- Alphonsus Cunningham (13), West Belfast, during disturbances, run over by a vehicle.
- Manus Deery (15), Derry, shot by army sniper as he brought supper home from nearby shop.
- Bridget Anne Dempsey (10 months), North Belfast, burned to death along with her mother and father when British paramilitary terrorists firebombed their house at night.
- James Doherty (4), West Belfast, shot outside his home.
- Michael Francis Donnelly (14), Silverbridge, Armagh, killed along with two adult Catholics in bomb-and-bullet attack on Donnelly’s Bar; by RUC, UDR and British paramilitary terrorists.
- Brian Duffy (15), North Belfast, in a taxi stand, died along with driver, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Seamus Duffy (15), North Belfast, shot at close range by RUC rubber bullet.
- Margaret Gargan (13), West Belfast, shot by British soldiers who also shot dead Fr. Noel Fitzpatrick as he gave her Last Rites. The bullet that killed Fr. Fitzpatrick passed through him and also killed Patrick Butler. While trying to drag Fr. Fitzpatrick to safety David McCafferty was also shot dead by the soldiers. (The first priest killed was Fr. Hugh Mullan, West Belfast, shot, twice, by British soldiers as he gave Last Rites to another of their victims. An attempt to drag him to safety ended when Frank Quinn was shot dead by the soldiers.)
- Rosaleen Gavin (8), North Belfast, shot by British soldiers from an observation post.
- Stephen Geddes (10), West Belfast, shot in head at close range by British soldier with rubber bullet.
- Rory Gormley (14), West Belfast, while being driven to school by his father, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Desmond Healey (14), West Belfast, shot in back by Parachute Reg’t soldier.
- Kevin Heatley (12), Newry, Co. Down, shot by British soldier. Kevin’s father later committed suicide.
- Clare Hughes (4), North Belfast, in blast of British paramilitary car-bomb outside Benny’s Pub.
- Carol Ann Kelly (11), West Belfast, shot in head by British soldier’s rubber bullet as she brought milk home from a nearby shop.
- James Kennedy (15), South Belfast, killed, along with four Catholic adults, in British paramilitary gun attack on betting shop.
- Julia Livingstone (14), shot in head at close range by a rubber bullet gun mounted on a British armored vehicle.
- Eileen Mackin (14), West Belfast, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Anne Magee (15), North Belfast, while at work in a grocery, shot in face by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Andrew Maguire (6 weeks),
- Joanne Maguire (8) and
- John Maguire (2), West Belfast, all crushed by a car when its driver was shot dead by a British soldier. Their mother later committed suicide.
- Hugh Maguire (9), West Belfast, hit by British armored vehicle.
- Gerald McAuley (15), West Belfast, shot dead along with an adult Catholic, by British paramilitary terrorists who were also burning down the homes of Catholics on Bombay Street and adjacent streets.
- Siobhan McCabe (4), West Belfast, shot near her house by British soldiers.
- David McCafferty (14), West Belfast, shot by British soldiers while trying to drag to safety Fr. Fitzpatrick who the soldiers had just shot.
- James Francis McCaughey (13), Dungannon, Co. Tyrone, killed in street along with his friend, Patrick Barnard (13).
- David McClenaghan (15), North Belfast, at night in his home, shot by British paramilitary terrorists who also raped his widowed mother.
- Stephen McConomy (11), Derry, shot in head by plastic bullet fired from a nearby armored vehicle.
- Anthony McDowell (12), North Belfast, while a passenger in a car, attributed to Parachute Reg’t soldiers who deny it.
- Annette McGavigan (14), Derry, shot by British soldiers.
- Joseph McGuinness (13), North Belfast, walking with friends to a fish and chip shop, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Maria McGurk (14), North Belfast, daughter of owner of McGurk’s Bar, killed along with fourteen others by British paramilitary terrorist bomb attack on the bar.
- Geraldine McKeown (14), North Belfast, shot through her window by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Kevin McMenamin (10), West Belfast, in blast of a bomb placed by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Carol McMenamy (15), North Belfast, shot in head and neck by British paramilitary terrorists in front of her cousin’s house. Her brother and cousin were murdered earlier.
- Darren Murray (12), Portadown, Co. Armagh, chased by British paramilitary terrorists into traffic where a car killed him.
- Anne Marie O’Brien (5 months), along with their mother, Anna, and father, John, among the thirty-three killed in the car-bomb blasts of 17May74 in Dublin and Monaghan streets placed by BA/RUC/”The Jackal.”
- Michelle O’Connor (3), South Belfast, killed by a bomb attached to her father’s car by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Majella O’Hare (12), Whitecross, Co. Armagh, on way, with friends, to Confession, shot by 3 Parachute Reg’t soldier.
- Geraldine O’Reilly (14), Belturbet, Co. Cavan, while walking with her boyfriend, Patrick Stanley, outside Belturbet Post Office, killed by British paramilitary car-bomb.
- Sean O’Riordan (13), West Belfast, shot in back of head by British soldier.
- Michelle Osborne (13), Hannahstown, Co. Antrim, killed by British paramilitary terror bomb placed in Ballymacaward Kennel Club.
- Richard Quinn (10),
- Mark Quinn (9) and
- Jason Quinn (8), Ballymoney, Co. Antrim, burned to death by British paramilitary terrorists who fire-bombed them in their beds. Their mother had tried to protect them from just such Anti-Catholic attacks by raising them as Protestants; but they were deemed Catholic enough to merit death.
- Philip Rafferty (14), South Belfast, abducted from near his home and shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Patrick Rooney (9), West Belfast, while in bed, shot by RUC machine gun through wall.
- Francis Rowntree (11), West Belfast, shot in the head at close range by British soldiers.
- Michael Scott (10), North Belfast, while visiting his grandmother, burned to death along with her when British paramilitary terrorists firebombed her house.
- Brian Stewart (13), West Belfast, shot in head by plastic bullet at close range by British soldier.
- Paula Stronge (6), North Belfast, while playing in street, killed along with four-year-old Clair Hughes, in British paramilitary bombing of Benny’s Bar.
- James Templeton (15), South Belfast, while walking in front of Catholic bar that British paramilitary terrorists shot up after it was opened following an earlier British paramilitary bombing that killed eight adults.
- Peter Joseph Watterson (15), West Belfast, in front of his mother’s shop, shot in back by British paramilitary terrorists from passing car.
-Paul Whitters (15), Derry, shot at close range by RUC plastic bullet.
This doesn't include the aforementioned murders using IRA weapons. I suppose we should be thankful they didn't engage in the sexual abuse of boys, like English soldiers did in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Funny, British murder of Irish Catholic minors is taboo.0 -
Border-Rat wrote: »It wasn't me who said that it would, or even theorised it as fantasy :rolleyes:
Anyway, I find it funny that Britons and/or their sympathisers regularly enjoy a good old Nationalist/Republican witch-hunt (Though always careful to isolate it to 06 County Republicanism, 26 County Republicanism is to be heralded). And that the death of minors is one of their swinging sticks. Lets just take a look at their track record here;
- Patrick Barnard (13), Dungannon, Co. Tyrone, killed along with James McCaughey (13) and three adult Catholics in British paramilitary car bomb attack.
- Daniel Barrett (15), Ardoyne, Belfast; shot in his home from a nearby BA observation post.
- Martha Campbell (13), Ballymurphy Road, Belfast, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Michael Patrick Connors (14), Central Belfast, shot along with John Mahon by British soldiers at a checkpoint.
- Patrick Crawford (15), West Belfast, while walking with two others, shot by British soldiers.
- James Cromie (13), Belfast, killed along with fourteen other Catholics by British paramilitary car bomb outside McGurk’s Pub.
- Alphonsus Cunningham (13), West Belfast, during disturbances, run over by a vehicle.
- Manus Deery (15), Derry, shot by army sniper as he brought supper home from nearby shop.
- Bridget Anne Dempsey (10 months), North Belfast, burned to death along with her mother and father when British paramilitary terrorists firebombed their house at night.
- James Doherty (4), West Belfast, shot outside his home.
- Michael Francis Donnelly (14), Silverbridge, Armagh, killed along with two adult Catholics in bomb-and-bullet attack on Donnelly’s Bar; by RUC, UDR and British paramilitary terrorists.
- Brian Duffy (15), North Belfast, in a taxi stand, died along with driver, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Seamus Duffy (15), North Belfast, shot at close range by RUC rubber bullet.
- Margaret Gargan (13), West Belfast, shot by British soldiers who also shot dead Fr. Noel Fitzpatrick as he gave her Last Rites. The bullet that killed Fr. Fitzpatrick passed through him and also killed Patrick Butler. While trying to drag Fr. Fitzpatrick to safety David McCafferty was also shot dead by the soldiers. (The first priest killed was Fr. Hugh Mullan, West Belfast, shot, twice, by British soldiers as he gave Last Rites to another of their victims. An attempt to drag him to safety ended when Frank Quinn was shot dead by the soldiers.)
- Rosaleen Gavin (8), North Belfast, shot by British soldiers from an observation post.
- Stephen Geddes (10), West Belfast, shot in head at close range by British soldier with rubber bullet.
- Rory Gormley (14), West Belfast, while being driven to school by his father, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Desmond Healey (14), West Belfast, shot in back by Parachute Reg’t soldier.
- Kevin Heatley (12), Newry, Co. Down, shot by British soldier. Kevin’s father later committed suicide.
- Clare Hughes (4), North Belfast, in blast of British paramilitary car-bomb outside Benny’s Pub.
- Carol Ann Kelly (11), West Belfast, shot in head by British soldier’s rubber bullet as she brought milk home from a nearby shop.
- James Kennedy (15), South Belfast, killed, along with four Catholic adults, in British paramilitary gun attack on betting shop.
- Julia Livingstone (14), shot in head at close range by a rubber bullet gun mounted on a British armored vehicle.
- Eileen Mackin (14), West Belfast, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Anne Magee (15), North Belfast, while at work in a grocery, shot in face by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Andrew Maguire (6 weeks),
- Joanne Maguire (8) and
- John Maguire (2), West Belfast, all crushed by a car when its driver was shot dead by a British soldier. Their mother later committed suicide.
- Hugh Maguire (9), West Belfast, hit by British armored vehicle.
- Gerald McAuley (15), West Belfast, shot dead along with an adult Catholic, by British paramilitary terrorists who were also burning down the homes of Catholics on Bombay Street and adjacent streets.
- Siobhan McCabe (4), West Belfast, shot near her house by British soldiers.
- David McCafferty (14), West Belfast, shot by British soldiers while trying to drag to safety Fr. Fitzpatrick who the soldiers had just shot.
- James Francis McCaughey (13), Dungannon, Co. Tyrone, killed in street along with his friend, Patrick Barnard (13).
- David McClenaghan (15), North Belfast, at night in his home, shot by British paramilitary terrorists who also raped his widowed mother.
- Stephen McConomy (11), Derry, shot in head by plastic bullet fired from a nearby armored vehicle.
- Anthony McDowell (12), North Belfast, while a passenger in a car, attributed to Parachute Reg’t soldiers who deny it.
- Annette McGavigan (14), Derry, shot by British soldiers.
- Joseph McGuinness (13), North Belfast, walking with friends to a fish and chip shop, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Maria McGurk (14), North Belfast, daughter of owner of McGurk’s Bar, killed along with fourteen others by British paramilitary terrorist bomb attack on the bar.
- Geraldine McKeown (14), North Belfast, shot through her window by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Kevin McMenamin (10), West Belfast, in blast of a bomb placed by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Carol McMenamy (15), North Belfast, shot in head and neck by British paramilitary terrorists in front of her cousin’s house. Her brother and cousin were murdered earlier.
- Darren Murray (12), Portadown, Co. Armagh, chased by British paramilitary terrorists into traffic where a car killed him.
- Anne Marie O’Brien (5 months), along with their mother, Anna, and father, John, among the thirty-three killed in the car-bomb blasts of 17May74 in Dublin and Monaghan streets placed by BA/RUC/”The Jackal.”
- Michelle O’Connor (3), South Belfast, killed by a bomb attached to her father’s car by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Majella O’Hare (12), Whitecross, Co. Armagh, on way, with friends, to Confession, shot by 3 Parachute Reg’t soldier.
- Geraldine O’Reilly (14), Belturbet, Co. Cavan, while walking with her boyfriend, Patrick Stanley, outside Belturbet Post Office, killed by British paramilitary car-bomb.
- Sean O’Riordan (13), West Belfast, shot in back of head by British soldier.
- Michelle Osborne (13), Hannahstown, Co. Antrim, killed by British paramilitary terror bomb placed in Ballymacaward Kennel Club.
- Richard Quinn (10),
- Mark Quinn (9) and
- Jason Quinn (8), Ballymoney, Co. Antrim, burned to death by British paramilitary terrorists who fire-bombed them in their beds. Their mother had tried to protect them from just such Anti-Catholic attacks by raising them as Protestants; but they were deemed Catholic enough to merit death.
- Philip Rafferty (14), South Belfast, abducted from near his home and shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Patrick Rooney (9), West Belfast, while in bed, shot by RUC machine gun through wall.
- Francis Rowntree (11), West Belfast, shot in the head at close range by British soldiers.
- Michael Scott (10), North Belfast, while visiting his grandmother, burned to death along with her when British paramilitary terrorists firebombed her house.
- Brian Stewart (13), West Belfast, shot in head by plastic bullet at close range by British soldier.
- Paula Stronge (6), North Belfast, while playing in street, killed along with four-year-old Clair Hughes, in British paramilitary bombing of Benny’s Bar.
- James Templeton (15), South Belfast, while walking in front of Catholic bar that British paramilitary terrorists shot up after it was opened following an earlier British paramilitary bombing that killed eight adults.
- Peter Joseph Watterson (15), West Belfast, in front of his mother’s shop, shot in back by British paramilitary terrorists from passing car.
-Paul Whitters (15), Derry, shot at close range by RUC plastic bullet.
This doesn't include the aforementioned murders using IRA weapons. I suppose we should be thankful they didn't engage in the sexual abuse of boys, like English soldiers did in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Funny, British murder of Irish Catholic minors is taboo.
To be fair I am neither a Brit or a Brit sympathiser but some og the garbage about ethnic cleansing is really stupid beyond belief I will apologise to you Border-Rat as I didn't read it properly.
I can agree its disgusting the children that were killed but then it disgusts me equally from both sides0 -
Border-Rat wrote: »Learn to read. He said: 'What if' Britons started wiping out Catholics in the North. I said that would not go without an International response. And it wouldn't have.
Like the instances were English terrorists took weapons from IRA caches, shot children, put the weapons back, then told people the IRA were killing their own using ballistic reports as evidence?
Which is all a response to your claims that the IRA should get some sort of kudos for not detonating a thermobaric bomb in Birmingham. This is all fantasy stuff. The IRA weren't adverse to a bit of mindless murder, but there was no way they would ever have contemplated the sort of attack you talk about, for one simple reason. Their paymasters in Boston could swing a few dead soldiers, or the conveniently broken phone box or everso slightly misleading warning, but wholsescale slaughter would have cut off immediately their funding from the gullible fools in the US.0 -
Chuck Stone said:And have millions of people of Irish heritage who live in Britain enraged and ready to fight for their brethren?
Yes, they loved Ireland so much, they moved to England.
LOLNo. The British knew that the harder they pushed the fiercer would be the push back.
They long ago accepted that they couldn't defeat the IRA.
They can't defeat child molestors or burglars either.
LOL0 -
Border-Rat wrote: »Probably would've been a response from Irish-America. Oppenheimer and the CIA have confirmed the PIRA had/have thermobaric explosive technology, that was the entire reason for the Columbian fiasco. Are you denying that a 10,000lb bomb was constructed and planned for Birmingham in 1997?
The point remains, anyway. When Britains finest were running around shooting children, the IRA didn't reciprocate.
Ye, they'd have sent thousands of blow up leprechauns across.
LOL0 -
Border-Rat wrote: »Learn to read. He said: 'What if' Britons started wiping out Catholics in the North. I said that would not go without an International response. And it wouldn't have.
Like the instances were English terrorists took weapons from IRA caches, shot children, put the weapons back, then told people the IRA were killing their own using ballistic reports as evidence?
Ye, that happened all the time.
Tell me Border-Rat, did you used to post on irishnationalism.net? The reason I ask is, it was full of your sort of fantasists - glorifying The IRA and celebrating Catholicism and anti-Semitism whilst talking eloquently about taking out British cities. A damned good read...
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trendyvicar wrote: »Ye, that happened all the time.
Tell me Border-Rat, did you used to post on irishnationalism.net? The reason I ask is, it was full of your sort of fantasists - glorifying The IRA and celebrating Catholicism and anti-Semitism whilst talking eloquently about taking out British cities. A damned good read...
Did he not know the difference between English and British on there either?0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »Did he not know the difference between English and British on there either?
Ah, but you see FF, Scotland and Wales are also occupied nations straining under The English yolk. Britishness is an artificial construct used to justify English oppression...
:eek:0 -
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Chuck Stone wrote: »They long ago accepted that they couldn't defeat the IRA.
No matter powerful & well equipt an Army is, it would be very hard to defeat a very small guerilla outfit like the PIRA who just anonymously fade back into the populace. The only way to defeat a terrorist group like that (imbedded in the population) would be to bring on the heavy weaponry with air support & raize the place to the ground (after having declared war on that country)!!! lucky for the PIRA then, who would have been mince meat after about three days, had it been a proper Army V Army war . . . . . .0
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