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100 % of Energy From Wind, Water, and Solar

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    #92
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    any chance the talk is online somewhere ?


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    #93
    pljudge321
    Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭pljudge321


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I know - he was one of my lecturers when I did my degree.

    How many years are you out now? I'm currently slogging it away in final year.
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    any chance the talk is online somewhere ?

    This may be it, or a variation there of.

    http://web.mit.edu/windenergy/windweek/Presentations/OMalley%20-%20Final%20MIT%20Jan%2019th%202011-Update.pdf


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    #94
    Tazz T
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭Tazz T


    easychair wrote: »
    Your are correct that it's a complete no brainer, insofar as your statement is just the sort of woolly thinking which gives renewables a bad name.

    Renewables have a part to play, but our current technologies mean they are unreliable and/or intermittent. To be wholly dependent on unreliable and/or intermittent sources of power is, obviously, foolish.

    And it's this type of negative thinking that'll make sure it's never implemented.

    As for 'unreliable and/or intermittent', when sun, wave, tidal, hydro, wind and geothermal all fail simultaneously :rolleyes: fortunately we have the a back up system - the one currently in place.


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    #95
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Tazz T wrote: »
    As for 'unreliable and/or intermittent', when sun, wave, tidal, hydro, wind and geothermal all fail simultaneously, fortunately we have the a back up system - the one currently in place.

    Yes but the WWS vision does not include the current system at all.
    It wouldn't just be a problem if all the renewable failed simultaneously; if for example just the wind failed, then that's 51% of electricity (wind and wave) down.


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    #96
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    Tazz T wrote: »
    And it's this type of negative thinking that'll make sure it's never implemented.

    As for 'unreliable and/or intermittent', when sun, wave, tidal, hydro, wind and geothermal all fail simultaneously :rolleyes: fortunately we have the a back up system - the one currently in place.

    How I think or don't think will have no bearing on whether or not the system you mention will ever be implemented.

    It's a fact that wind, sun tidal and hydro are unreliable and/or intermittent, and no amount of positive thinking can change that fact. It would be lovely if we could turn off all the conventional power stations and get all our needs from a reliable and constant source of renewal power, but unfortunately the technology has yet to be invented to achieve that.

    "Negative thinking" seems to be what an optimist calls a realist.


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    #97
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    ...if for example just the wind failed, then that's 51% of electricity (wind and wave) down....
    ...in one particular location.
    easychair wrote: »
    It's a fact that wind, sun tidal and hydro are unreliable and/or intermittent...
    None of the above are any more unreliable than current forms of electricity generation and hydro is not intermittent.
    easychair wrote: »
    It would be lovely if we could turn off all the conventional power stations and get all our needs from a reliable and constant source of renewal power, but unfortunately the technology has yet to be invented to achieve that.
    What technology is lacking at present?


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    #98
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    djpbarry wrote: »
    ...in one particular location.
    Like much of Europe
    djpbarry wrote: »
    None of the above are any more unreliable than current forms of electricity generation and hydro is not intermittent.
    What rubbish, have you been taking those 'We love renewable energy' pills again and pumped hydro is potentially intermittent if the pumping's done by say wind or solar.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    What technology is lacking at present?
    Effective storage


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    #99
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    What rubbish, you've been taking those 'We love renewable energy' pills again and pumped hydro is potentially intermittent if the pumping's done by say wind or solar.
    That’s silly – every form of electricity generation is potentially intermittent. In the case of hydro storage, all that needs to be ensured to minimise intermittency (eliminating intermittency is impossible, no matter what form of generation is being used) is adequate storage and adequate pumping. In other words, if you have a big enough reservoir and a sufficient number of pumps to keep it topped up, you’ll always have hydro generation to call on.
    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    Effective storage
    The technology doesn’t exist to fill holes with water? Or electrolyse water and store the hydrogen?


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    #100
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    djpbarry wrote: »
    every form of electricity generation is potentially intermittent.
    This thread is about energy generation and within this context the term 'intermittency' has a specific meaning and intermittent generators have a whole load of specific associated problems as well you know.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    In the case of hydro storage, all that needs to be ensured to minimise intermittency (eliminating intermittency is impossible, no matter what form of generation is being used) is adequate storage and adequate pumping. In other words, if you have a big enough reservoir and a sufficient number of pumps to keep it topped up, you’ll always have hydro generation to call on.
    Indeed, as per a few posts back
    djpbarry wrote: »
    The technology doesn’t exist to fill holes with water? Or electrolyse water and store the hydrogen?
    Note the word "effective" and maybe add practical, feasible, economic etc


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    #101
    pljudge321
    Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭pljudge321


    Unless you start coming out with numbers this argument is pretty pointless.


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    #102
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    This thread is about energy generation...
    This thread is about a hypothetical situation in which global electricity demand is completely met by renewables. Scepticism is all well and good, but repeatedly stating something along the lines of “it just won’t work, ok?” isn’t likely to result in a flowing discussion.


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    #103
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    djpbarry wrote: »
    This thread is about a hypothetical situation in which global electricity demand is completely met by renewables. Scepticism is all well and good, but repeatedly stating something along the lines of “it just won’t work, ok?” isn’t likely to result in a flowing discussion.

    You appear to be addressing the wrong poster as I haven't posted repeatedly or otherwise, anything along the lines of “it just won’t work, ok?”


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    #104
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    [mod]OK enough of the sniping everyone.[/mod]


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    #105
    pljudge321
    Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭pljudge321


    I had a look at who authored those papers. Both of them are civil engineering professors without a background in electrical engineering or power systems. Says it all really.


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    #106
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    pljudge321 wrote: »
    I had a look at who authored those papers. Both of them are civil engineering professors without a background in electrical engineering or power systems. Says it all really.
    Researchers diversify all the time - that's not really just grounds on which to dismiss their work.


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    #107
    323
    Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    Interesting thread, I see no reason why Ireland could totally renewable powered in a few decades (for a lot less than has been squandered on any one of the banks).
    Technically no reason why it could not be done globally.

    Intermittent wind can be overcome, interconnectors & storage.

    Using proven HVDC technology, transferring bulk power either way over long distances, much greater than 1000km is not an issue, These are being installed and are already ahead of that shown in Mark O'Mally's presentation posted here, Ireland-UK being laid now, BritNed and NorNed already operational, others to go in soon, basically as fast as the cables can be made.

    Wind, we have one of the best resources in the world.
    Same with our potential wave resource, basically never stops on the west coast
    Reasonable Tidal resource, this being totally predictable

    Hybrid system using these along with traditional and coastal sea water pumped hydro storage and to a lesser extent systems like that of VRB Energy Storage System being installed in Donegal. Intermittent wind is not a problem, even less if we put them offshore.

    Sure, it will cost, but what is the alternative? push bikes and candles? Fossil fuels will come to an point where they are no longer financially viable long before they run out. Then there is the other elephant in the room as regards going nuclear, we will probably run out of uranium before oil.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



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    #108
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    323 wrote: »
    Intermittent wind is not a problem, even less if we put them offshore.

    It will be for anyone dependent on it for power when the wind drops or stops.


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    #109
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    easychair wrote: »
    It will be for anyone dependent on it for power when the wind drops or stops.
    If there is no alternative means of generation available, then yes. But of course, for the umpteenth time, nobody is proposing that anyone be left 100% dependent on wind.


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    #110
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    djpbarry wrote: »
    If there is no alternative means of generation available, then yes. But of course, for the umpteenth time, nobody is proposing that anyone be left 100% dependent on wind.

    Of course, we all know that wind power is backed up by conventional stations. The title of this thread is "100 % of Energy From Wind, Water, and Solar" and the combination of wind, solar and water is simply not going to provide a continuous, reliable and predictable form of power.


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    #111
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    easychair wrote: »
    The title of this thread is "100 % of Energy From Wind, Water, and Solar" and the combination of wind, solar and water is simply not going to provide a continuous, reliable and predictable form of power.
    Because? In the hypothetical situation in which there is sufficient interconnection, sufficient storage (hydrogen and pumped hydro, for example) and sufficient generators (geothermal, tidal, wind/wave and solar), why can a "continuous, reliable and predictable form of power" not be provided?


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    #112
    323
    Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    easychair wrote: »
    Of course, we all know that wind power is backed up by conventional stations. The title of this thread is "100 % of Energy From Wind, Water, and Solar" and the combination of wind, solar and water is simply not going to provide a continuous, reliable and predictable form of power.

    Why not?

    Yes, wind is backed as you say by conventional stations, I believe in a few decades wind and the other renewables will be referred to as conventional simply because our conventional fossil (and nuclear) fuel based stations will not be financially viable. At the moment wind is the most commercially developed renewable technology but marine and offshore renewables will in time play a large part.
    By moving wind offshore, production and load factor can be increased considerably. Bigger turbines with no speed/noise restrictions and more consistent steadier and faster wind flow.

    The thread is "100 % of Energy From Wind, Water, and Solar". 40% of the world's population lives within. 100 kilometers of the coast.

    Tidal power is totally predictable and used with pumped storage can contribute to base load.

    Someone mentioned becalmed sailing ships, true, but forgot the other boat/ship sailing past 5 miles away. ie when totally calm in one area it will not be elsewhere. Brings us back to interconnectors.

    Even in an extended calm period there will be wave, it varies regionally but wave amplitude lags behind wind conditions by many days. North West seaboard of Europe and particularly our west coast wave/swell is almost always there.

    Populations away from the coast. The big hydro systems of the world are almost all inland (interconnectors again), clearer skies for solar, and don't forget bio-fuels, timber etc. not the food-crops for bio-diesel/CO2 credits lunacy.


    Not a green or CO2 nut, most of these renewable technologies though advancing quickly are in their infancy and are going to have to stand up and compete commercially with your conventional generation. I honestly cannot see fossil fuels dropping in price much ever again so renewables are becoming more competitive all the time and will very soon be the cheaper option. That is when they will really take off.

    P.S. I work mostly in the evil Oil & Gas industry

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



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    #113
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    323 wrote: »
    ...I believe in a few decades wind and the other renewables will be referred to as conventional simply because our conventional fossil (and nuclear) fuel based stations will not be financially viable.
    Fossil fuels maybe, but I suspect nuclear might be around for quite a while yet, albeit in a different form.
    323 wrote: »
    Even in an extended calm period there will be wave, it varies regionally but wave amplitude lags behind wind conditions by many days.
    That’s an interesting point I hadn’t considered – dampening oscillations in an ocean is going to take quite a long time.

    Incidentally, biogas is another fuel that could be used for baseload generation, produced using waste products rather than crops. Biogas was injected into the UK national grid for the first time last year:
    http://www.thameswater.co.uk/cps/rde/xchg/corp/hs.xsl/10982.htm


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    #114
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    323 wrote: »

    Someone mentioned becalmed sailing ships, true, but forgot the other boat/ship sailing past 5 miles away. ie when totally calm in one area it will not be elsewhere. Brings us back to interconnectors.

    That implies that you believe that the wind is more or less constant, and if it stops b lowing over, say Wexford, then it increases somewhere else to compensate, say in Galway.

    Can I clarify if that is what you think?

    What if there is evidence to show that, at times, there is neglibable power produced from wind across the whole island?

    Which will you judge to be more accurate, evidence or a belief?

    As was said, wind power is seductive, and a wonderful thing, but it's not reliable which is a major flaw until we can find a way to store energy efficiently and economically.


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    #115
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    easychair wrote: »
    As was said, wind power is seductive, and a wonderful thing, but it's not reliable...
    Yes it is – reliability and intermittency are not the same thing.
    easychair wrote: »
    ...which is a major flaw until we can find a way to store energy efficiently and economically.
    Not really – wind can still make a significant contribution. Interconnection will allow an even greater contribution.


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    #116
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Yes it is – reliability and intermittency are not the same thing.
    .

    I agree that reliability and intermissency are not the same thing. I chose the word reliable in the meaning of its definition by the OED which is "
    adjective

    consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted: ". As the wind is not consistent, and not consistently good in quality and performance, it is therefore unreliable as a source of power.


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    #117
    323
    Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    easychair wrote: »
    That implies that you believe that the wind is more or less constant, and if it stops b lowing over, say Wexford, then it increases somewhere else to compensate, say in Galway.

    Can I clarify if that is what you think?

    What if there is evidence to show that, at times, there is neglibable power produced from wind across the whole island?

    Which will you judge to be more accurate, evidence or a belief?

    As was said, wind power is seductive, and a wonderful thing, but it's not reliable which is a major flaw until we can find a way to store energy efficiently and economically.

    No. Not saying that, does not and cannot increase elsewhere but almost always the case even in such a small area as ireland whereby when a weathere system moves by where there is no wind in one area it will be blowing elsewhere.
    I'm regularly aware of the case of no wind in Dublin and 20 Knots Plus (>10 m/s) on the west coast where I live, well into the power band of a wind turbine.
    Internally this requires expanding the grid to accomadate the ability to transport large amounts of from one end of the island to the other.

    Yes. There will still be ocasional cases where there is neglibable power produced from wind across the whole island, back to wide area grid using HVDC interconnectors again. Our first, to the UK being installed at the moment. These will transport the shortfall after wave/tidal/biofuel production from areas in Europe where wind systems are producing.

    No. Don't believe I have any misguided belief's. Large scale energy transmission will be the major issue, this is fully technically feasable and not a new idea.


    This makes for interesting reading without being overly technical, suggestion by Gregor Czisc that the entire European power usage could come from renewables, with 70% total energy from wind costing the same or lower than at present.

    "Realisable Scenarios for a Future Electricity Supply based 100% on Renewable Energies" available at

    http://www.risoe.dk/rispubl/reports/ris-r-1608_186-195.pdf

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



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    #118
    EI_Flyboy
    Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭EI_Flyboy


    Interesting piece on the decreasing cost of solar power:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/opinion/krugman-here-comes-solar-energy.html?_r=1&src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB


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    #119
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    323 wrote: »
    Yes. There will still be ocasional cases where there is neglibable power produced from wind across the whole island, back to wide area grid using HVDC interconnectors again. Our first, to the UK being installed at the moment. These will transport the shortfall after wave/tidal/biofuel production from areas in Europe where wind systems are producing.

    I am glad thats clarified so thanks for that. I wonder what will happen if we have interconnection to the UK and beyond, and we have a winter such as we had last winter, which put considerable strain on electricity providers all across europe, while the wind decided to go off in a huff (geddit??). Where would Ireland stand then if it was 100% reliant on wind, solar and tidal energy?


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    #120
    323
    Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    EI_Flyboy wrote: »
    Interesting piece on the decreasing cost of solar power:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/opinion/krugman-here-comes-solar-energy.html?_r=1&src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB

    Thanks for the link. Yes, was aware of the fast dropping cost of solar, this is widely reported in various technical/energy periodicals but good to see it being reported fairly in the media, as they often seem to portray solar as costing what it did 10 years ago.

    Always liked this one, which has gone ignored for much too long, from the man who patented and developed the first electric power distribution system.

    "I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that."
    Thomas Edison in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone (1931)

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



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    #121
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    323 wrote: »

    "I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that."
    Thomas Edison in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone (1931)

    Of course the sun is the source of all power, in a way. Responsible for all growth and life, even of the plants and vegetation which has turned into Oil, peat, coal and so on.

    In Africa solar power is evident as a remarkable and valuable source, with many of even the smallest houses with solar power units heating water for a reliable and useful source of domestic supply.

    Wind is also ingeniously used to pump water into tanks, ensuring a more or less plentiful supply for animals and humans, which can be seen across rural North and South America, Australia and Africa. When the wind blows, the water is pumped into tanks. When it doesn't blow, the water previously pumped into the tanks is still available, and is used.


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