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Road deaths: Another record low year?

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    #32
    Tomk1
    Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Tomk1


    Theres an awfull lot of assumptions here, with no facts to support them.
    Of the 200 deaths and compairing accidents say over the last decade broken down per each year.
    Could someone give the figures per yr:
    How many each year was dumb-driving?
    How many related to speeding?
    How many in each age bracket?
    How many were due to unsafe-NTC passed cars?
    How many were drink/drug related?
    How many were during the morning/day/evening/night?
    How many on bad roads/ motorways/ in urban areas towns&cities?
    How many durning icy/rain/fog/bright-sun/falling-trees/flash-flood conditions?
    How many involved provisonal drivers?
    Approximately how many cars were actually on the road for each time-frame per day?
    How many involved Trucks/tractors/motorbikes/pedestrian.
    How many where; Irish vehicles (as road deaths do not mean cars), left-hand drive?
    How many were road-rage, attempted murder etc?

    Only with these figures can anyone claim: older ntc-passed-cars or speed, better roads, more people tuning into Lyric-fm while driving -(that claim is mine and is as relevent as any other claim)

    It is true that many suicides are put down as accident/misadventure which is understandable for the families involved, but what are the overall reported figures per age group per year?

    Was that fellow who killed his kids in Ballycotten and then rammed his car into a wall a few years ago put down as a road-death?

    But untill I have the facts, Lyric-fm


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    #33
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    seamus wrote: »
    Basically when you've got a vehicle which was quite clearly tipping long at a high speed, a direct collision with an immoveable object, no sign of any attempt to brake or avoid the object and no seatbelt, then it all looks a little fishy.

    I'd have to agree. The only way that's an accident is asleep/drunk/amazingly stoned at the wheel. I would think that young drivers (the group we're most interested in) are also the group least likely to be driving without a seatbelt.

    I'd expect most deaths due to inexperienced young men at speed/drunk in single vehicle accidents would be off the road understeer/oversteer with lots of tyre marks, braking, skidding and possibly rolling, rather than head-on into an obstacle at speed.


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    #34
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    I would say that the the age group of people that dont wear seatbelts would be the older generation.

    I agree: I would think that young drivers (the group we're most interested in) are also the group least likely to be driving without a seatbelt.


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    #35
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    I'd note also that with total road deaths running at 200-220 per year, the suicide stats are relatively large: 2009 total was 527, with about 400 of them male, and young men 20-24 the largest single grouping.

    The stats break down by Poisoning, Hanging, Drowning, Firearms, Other which includes self-cutting and jumping from a high place with no sign of death by motorcar at all.

    If even a low fraction of suicides are suicides by car, it would be enough to distort the road accident fatality picture. Surely more 15-24 year olds have access to a car than to a firearm!


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    #36
    Rovi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    seamus wrote: »
    I wouldn't say "every", but if you speak to any Garda who's done his/her time on the road, they'll tell you that the number of apparent suicides is a lot higher than people think.

    My brother is a paramedic, and he and his colleagues would say the same thing.


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    #37
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Chriscl1 wrote: »
    Has there been fewer rta's??
    Fewer collisions - "accident" is a bit of a cop out. They also tend to be less fatal on average.
    Maybe it's down to scrappage getting older less safe cars off the road.
    Realistically, I don't think so. While they were older cars I don't thinkt hey were outright bangers like the ones removed from circulation around 1998-1999.
    Confab wrote: »
    I consider the road death count to be a bit misleading. Severe/serious injury should be emphasised more in the road accident stats.
    Yes, but they are more difficult to track in realtime, which is what that Garda page does.
    Also, a significant number of road deaths are single vehicle/male/18-25, in other words the same group that has the highest incidence of suicide.
    Lots of murders/manslaughters are also committed by that group. Perhaps people are bringing Grand Theft Auto into real life?

    More seriously, research indicated that suicide by road collision is quite rare.
    tmcw wrote: »
    Maybe it's down to more people with points (more fixed charges given), not wanting to get any more (less money to burn on penalties and resulting hikes in insurance), and taking a bit more care in how they drive (resulting in less accidents and fatalities).
    I somewhat agree. With the recession and high fuel prices, people are travelling less for work and personal and are more cost conscious in what travel they make. Alcohol and other recreational drugs are also less affordable / available.
    Tenshot wrote: »
    Let's not forget a significant improvement in quality in roads over the past 10 years.

    I can think of a number of stretches I drive regularly where, for example, road widening & straightening occurred, cross-junctions were removed and replaced by flyovers or underpasses or simply blocked off, etc.
    With almost no new roads opened in the last year, that can't explain a 11% drop in road deaths in that period.
    seamus wrote: »
    There appears to be a direct correlation in previous years between the number of drink-driving offences and a drop in road deaths.

    Whether they're linked is hard to say, but it seems unlikely to be coincidence. There was a 15% drop in DWI arrests between 09 and 10 and a 12% drop in road deaths.
    There has been a trend away from pub/club drinking towards drinking at home that has been hapening for more than 10 years. I imagine the recession has helped that.

    I used some statistics software on the numbers last year and while lots of factors appear to contribute to the reduction, the shift towards home drinking was the only one that appeared to have a direct correlation. However, correlation does not equal causation, one can see how it would contribute.
    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Hard to know just what that means without a lot more detail. It might mean we're getting down to mostly single-drunk-occupant single-vehicle vs. stone bridge at 2 am type crashes, or just that we had fewer HGV takes out whole family crashes.
    I think those are just two stereotypes that may or may not be reflective of the overall figures. Remember the 8 killed in Donegal last year? That didn't involved a HGV. Speaking to HGV operators, they are immensely conscious about costs at the moment, so drivers are being given eco-driving courses (e.g. avoid hard braking / acceleration), that also bring safety improvements.
    trad wrote: »
    I would say directly proportional to the price of fuel. Motorists are driving slower.
    Well inversly proportional. International research does point to fuel price hikes having positive effects on road safety. And its not just slower, its less harsh accelleration/braking, sharp manoeuvers, etc. Tehr ewill also be an element of trips not made or mode change for certain trips, e.g. not driving to the corner shop.
    Plus a lot of the sub 25 year old male group are now in Australia/ UK / Canada etc
    A proportion yes, but also Poland, etc. Its hard to determine how amny as those figures aren't available yet. The census did show a big drop in the male/female ratio as construction workers emigrated.


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    #38
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Here's a funky idea.

    Less people on the roads? Less people, fewer crashes.
    Not absolutely. Fewer vehicles can also mean higher mean speeds and less attention.
    heate wrote: »
    I think we should take some sort of pride in these figures in some way isn't it nice to live in a safer country.
    Agreed.
    The clampdown on drink driving has a role to play - I just wish they'd stop doing so manh checkpoints in Dublinm; the one county where you can't do a100mph average with 10 people in you'd car!
    Not every checkpoint is purely about drink driving or other motoring matters. Tehy are often used to disrupt criminals.
    savagecabbages wrote: »
    Better cars and roads
    As previsoulyy, not many new roads over the last year and car quality is likely to have slightly degraded over that time.
    One thing which infuriates me is people putting the 2am single car deaths down to suicide:mad: Massive cop out...
    Cop out might be harsh, but I agree it might be misplaced.

    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Obviously not all are down to suicide. But seriously, what do you suggest they are?
    Circumstances exceeding the ability of the driver, due to tiredness, fatigue, intoxication, etc. The Kildare County Coroner examined about 100 case and in only one case was there a suggestion that it might have been suicide.


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    #39
    I.S.T.
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭I.S.T.


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    According to the stats at the Garda National Traffic Bureau page, we look like having another record low in road deaths this year. The figure could be around 200. I'd put most of any improvement down to economic conditions this year.

    Also at that page, drink driving arrests also down, but fixed charge notices for speeding, mobile use, seatbelts and "other" are up.

    If you look at the number of deaths in relation to the number of vehicles on the road (dramatically increased in the last 10 years) you will see there is an even more dramatic reduction in deaths. This is the figure they should be reporting. We will be publishing more comprehensive stats on this at irishspeedtraps.com very soon but here is a simple breakdown

    Year: Deaths per million registered vehicles
    1999: 257
    2000: 247
    2001: 232
    2002: 203
    2003: 173
    2004: 184
    2005: 185
    2006: 159
    2007: 138
    2008: 112
    2009: 96
    2010: not available yet


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    #40
    nessan22
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭nessan22


    same happened in United States as well...new safety features in cars and strict safety norms for automakers can be claimed one reason for this.


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    #41
    I.S.T.
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭I.S.T.


    Actually this graph illustrates more clearly the dramatic drop in road deaths when you look at deaths per million registered vehicles:

    DeathsPerMillionRegVehicles.gif


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    #42
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,322 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Northern Ireland also doing very well again this year after last year's record low.

    1/1/09 to 21/9/09: 88 deaths
    1/1/10 to 21/9/10: 38 deaths
    1/1/11 to 21/9/11: 40 deaths

    http://www.psni.police.uk/daily_fatal.pdf


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    #43
    I.S.T.
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭I.S.T.


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Northern Ireland also doing very well again this year after last year's record low.

    1/1/09 to 21/9/09: 88 deaths
    1/1/10 to 21/9/10: 38 deaths
    1/1/11 to 21/9/11: 40 deaths

    http://www.psni.police.uk/daily_fatal.pdf

    That's impressive. Do you know what contributed to the reduction?


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    #44
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,322 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »
    That's impressive. Do you know what contributed to the reduction?
    Hard to say but some of the factors that may influence the reduction in deaths in the Republic may not be as significant in NI. For instance, they haven't had the dramatic road improvements that we have had, they haven't had a well publicised rollout of speed camera vans in the last year that we have had. Also, they may not be as badly affected by the recession.

    Here are some stats going back a few years for NI.
    http://www.roadsafetycouncil.com/stats.htm


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    #45
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    There are loads of factors which contribute to this. Speed vans and fuel costs have people driving slower. NCT enforcement has people in safer cars. Overall attitudes have changed, in particular towards seatbelts and drink driving. Car enthusiasts tend to be older and more mature these days with the more boy racer types being caught doing stupid stuff. Less people are driving and traffic levels have dropped.


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    #46
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »
    If you look at the number of deaths in relation to the number of vehicles on the road (dramatically increased in the last 10 years) you will see there is an even more dramatic reduction in deaths. This is the figure they should be reporting. We will be publishing more comprehensive stats on this at irishspeedtraps.com very soon but here is a simple breakdown

    Year: Deaths per million registered vehicles
    1999: 257
    2000: 247
    2001: 232
    2002: 203
    2003: 173
    2004: 184
    2005: 185
    2006: 159
    2007: 138
    2008: 112
    2009: 96
    2010: not available yet
    This is a metric that is pushed by the motor industry that has nothing to do with allievating the suffering of the dead, injured and their families.

    Pistol sales in the Republic have gone up since the end of The Troubles, when they were all but banned. This has lead to a reduction in the murder per pistol rate. However we have 3-4 times the number of murders. See any parallels?


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    #47
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Victor wrote: »
    Pistol sales in the Republic have gone up since the end of The Troubles, when they were all but banned. This has lead to a reduction in the murder per pistol rate. However we have 3-4 times the number of murders. See any parallels?

    No, since the absolute number of road deaths has been cut in half in 10 years.


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    #48
    I.S.T.
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭I.S.T.


    Victor wrote: »
    This is a metric that is pushed by the motor industry that has nothing to do with allievating the suffering of the dead, injured and their families.
    Oh please, don't play the emotion card to deflect from a valid point re the published stats.
    Victor wrote: »
    Pistol sales in the Republic have gone up since the end of The Troubles, when they were all but banned. This has lead to a reduction in the murder per pistol rate. However we have 3-4 times the number of murders. See any parallels?
    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    No, since the absolute number of road deaths has been cut in half in 10 years.

    As Zubeneschamali said, not a valid comparison at all. Absolute road deaths were 628 in 1978 and have reduced almost every year since then with an all time low of 211 last year. Road safety has been improving all the time, but when you take the deaths per million vehicles metric, it gives a much clearer picture of what is going on.


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    #49
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »
    Oh please, don't play the emotion card
    Why? Because it doesn't suit your agenda? And the income on your website?
    but when you take the deaths per million vehicles metric, it gives a much clearer picture of what is going on.
    No it doesn't, it only shows part of the picture.

    Your metric merely shows that it is 'vastly safer' for cars (relatively cheap), where it is merely 'much safer' for humans (very dear).


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    #50
    I.S.T.
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭I.S.T.


    Victor wrote: »
    Why? Because it doesn't suit your agenda? And the income on your website?
    What do you think my agenda is? I'm sure you don't even know.

    Why are you obsessed about the income from my website? It has nothing to do with the discussion. Are you as concerned about the income of all the people who work for the RSA? Are they all working for free? Have you emailed the RSA to ask them?
    Victor wrote: »
    No it doesn't, it only shows part of the picture.

    Your metric merely shows that it is 'vastly safer' for cars (relatively cheap), where it is merely 'much safer' for humans (very dear).

    My metric shows that the safety record on Irish roads has improved to an even greater extent than the Government and RSA tell us. More vehicles on the road and less accidents. That is good news all around, they should be shouting about this from the rooftops and patting themselves on the back, why don't they do this? Oh wait, I forgot, maybe there might be calls to disband the RSA, or cut back on it's budget. They wouldn't want to do that would they?


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    #51
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »
    What do you think my agenda is? I'm sure you don't even know.
    You appear to be quick to point out flaws with speed limits and speed checks, but seem to make no effort to fix the problems. I've challenged you on this before (you were complaining about a high speed limit on a moinor road in the Dublin Mountains, but refused to identify where it was) and you had no answer.
    Why are you obsessed about the income from my website?
    Am I? To my recollection, this is the only time I have mentioned it. Surely not an obsesssion.
    My metric shows that the safety record on Irish roads has improved to an even greater extent than the Government and RSA tell us. More vehicles on the road and less accidents.
    Cars don't count. People do. Crash a car and it might cost a few thousand to deal with. Injure a person and it is likely to be a multiple of that.
    less accidents.
    Less headline accidents. As mentioned earlier, large numbers of injuries are going unreported. But there are still too many casualties.


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    #52
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »
    What do you think my agenda is? I'm sure you don't even know.

    Why are you obsessed about the income from my website? It has nothing to do with the discussion. Are you as concerned about the income of all the people who work for the RSA? Are they all working for free? Have you emailed the RSA to ask them?



    My metric shows that the safety record on Irish roads has improved to an even greater extent than the Government and RSA tell us. More vehicles on the road and less accidents. That is good news all around, they should be shouting about this from the rooftops and patting themselves on the back, why don't they do this? Oh wait, I forgot, maybe there might be calls to disband the RSA, or cut back on it's budget. They wouldn't want to do that would they?

    Your agenda is quite clear. Your name, sig and blatant disregard for any fact that doesn't suit the "speed cameras are bad" way of thinking.


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    #53
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Victor wrote: »
    But there are still too many casualties
    All the more reason to focus on real numbers, to identify real causes of accidents and deaths, and the actual reasons why deaths are going down.

    The RSA are very, very poor at this. See the recent push to lower the drink-drive limit from 80 to 50, even though far, far more drivers are killed with more than double the old limit on board than in that new 50-80 category. The obvious way to address that is to arrest more drunk drivers, not mess with the limits, but messing with the limits is easier, and will drive the DWI figure up without doing any actual extra work. Result!

    Similarly, there is a push on to toll more of our Motorways to raise revenue. The RSA should be screaming that this will reverse recent progress and push dangerous traffic back into towns and onto bad roads, and will kill people. Much better to raise the same revenue by taxing fuel, and let people use the safest roads. Safer still to abolish all tolls.


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    #54
    I.S.T.
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭I.S.T.


    Victor wrote: »
    You appear to be quick to point out flaws with speed limits and speed checks, but seem to make no effort to fix the problems. I've challenged you on this before (you were complaining about a high speed limit on a moinor road in the Dublin Mountains, but refused to identify where it was) and you had no answer.
    My tax is used to pay people working for the RSA and NRA to fix the problems. It is not my responsibility to fix these problems. If I see problems with their approach and methods, it is my right to point this out.

    Seriously, tell me, what do you expect me to do to fix these problems?
    Victor wrote: »
    Am I? To my recollection, this is the only time I have mentioned it. Surely not an obsesssion.
    I'm sure you asked about it before, maybe I am confusing you with another poster.
    Victor wrote: »

    Cars don't count. People do. Crash a car and it might cost a few thousand to deal with. Injure a person and it is likely to be a multiple of that.

    Cost of collisions have decreased also according to the RSA Road Collision Facts 2009 report:
    RSA Road Collision Facts 2009 wrote:
    The cost of collisions was based on those as outlined in the 2004 Goodbody Economic Consultants report entitled ‘Cost Benefit Parameters and Application Rules for Transport Project Appraisal’ which was commissioned by the Department of Transport. Using the updating mechanism as set out in the Goodbody Economic Consultant’s report which is to inflate the year 2002 cost values to 2009 values, using the growth in Gross National Product (GNP) per person employed, the estimated cost of all fatal and injury road collisions reported to and recorded by An Garda Síochána in 2009 was €974 million. This is a decrease in cost of collisions of €229 million when compared to 2008 figure
    Victor wrote: »
    Less headline accidents. As mentioned earlier, large numbers of injuries are going unreported
    Not reported to who? All injury crashes have to be reported to the Gardaí. The RSA report is generated using stats from the Gardaí.
    Victor wrote: »
    But there are still too many casualties.
    Agreed, one casualty is one too many.


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    #55
    I.S.T.
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭I.S.T.


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    Your agenda is quite clear. Your name, sig and blatant disregard for any fact that doesn't suit the "speed cameras are bad" way of thinking.

    That is not the agenda at all. You are very wide of the mark. I am not against speed cameras, I am against speed cameras being used to raise revenue or for PR purposes by the Government. No problem at all with speed cameras in areas of high accident rates.


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    #56
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »
    That is not the agenda at all. You are very wide of the mark. I am not against speed cameras, I am against speed cameras being used to raise revenue or for PR purposes by the Government. No problem at all with speed cameras in areas of high accident rates.

    And i suppose those speed trap avoidance apps in your sig distinguish between speed traps in good and bad locations?


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    #57
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »
    My tax is used to pay people working for the RSA and NRA to fix the problems. It is not my responsibility to fix these problems. If I see problems with their approach and methods, it is my right to point this out.
    If, as you maintain that inappropriate limits are set on certain roads, why don't you report those roads? Add that little bit of functionality to the "Add speed camera" page. Tell you what, if you do that, I'll personally re-write the bye-laws to get them sorted.

    Oh, do you have a data protection policy?


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    #58
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »
    I am against speed cameras being used to raise revenue
    To support your statement, please provide details of the net revenue from speed cameras. Note though, that quotes from the 'Daily Mail' will not be accepted as fact.


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    #59
    I.S.T.
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭I.S.T.


    Victor wrote: »
    If, as you maintain that inappropriate limits are set on certain roads, why don't you report those roads? Add that little bit of functionality to the "Add speed camera" page. Tell you what, if you do that, I'll personally re-write the bye-laws to get them sorted.
    I don't know how I can make this any clearer, I already answered in my last post. It is not my responsibility, there are government bodies paid with my tax money to do this.
    Victor wrote: »
    Oh, do you have a data protection policy?
    Yes. But again, not relevant to this thread. You can use the contact us page on the website if you have any other off topic questions.


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    #60
    I.S.T.
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭I.S.T.


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    To support your statement, please provide details of the net revenue from speed cameras. Note though, that quotes from the 'Daily Mail' will not be accepted as fact.

    Why do I need to "support" my statement. I am against speed cameras being used to raise any revenue. The speeding fine should be abolished and just penalty points given for speeding offenses. This will remove any doubt in motorists minds that they are just there to make money.


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    #61
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »
    Why do I need to "support" my statement. I am against speed cameras being used to raise any revenue. The speeding fine should be abolished and just penalty points given for speeding offenses. This will remove any doubt in motorists minds that they are just there to make money.

    Here's my thing on this IST. If you are going to make an assertion you ought to be able to back it up, otherwise it's worthless.

    Whether speed cameras are for raising revenue or not is immaterial - they only catch law-breakers anyway, so it's easy to starve them of revenue.

    That there is a fine seems to focus the mind of the motorist more than the points, so I guess that makes it a bigger deterrant, a better tool.


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