Saorview Name and Logo

STB · 15-09-2011 12:43pm

cast_iron wrote: »

Not quite. MY point was that the "Saorview Approved" sticker was sufficient enough as a guide to fully compliant boxes, and that the word/logo can't be practically copyrighted and policed.
When you think about it, it will be our only national terrestrial tv service. Is it not a bit strange that the word to describe such a service is copyrighted?

SAORVIEW Approved Set-Top-Boxes and iDTVs
SAORVIEW established a receiver (set-top-box and iDTV) approval process to reassure consumers that Approved receivers will work with all aspects of the SAORVIEW service.

For more information on receiver specifications go to www.saorview.ie

Only SAORVIEW Approved receivers will be allowed to carry the official SAORVIEW logo (see below) on their packaging and marketing materials.
SAORVIEW recommends that consumers wishing to avail of the SAORVIEW service only purchase SAORVIEW Approved set-top-boxes or iDTVs.

Understand what you need

It is important to understand what you need, and what you don’t need, to receive the SAORVIEW service. If after reading through this booklet you
are still unsure as to what to do, you should call the SAORVIEW information line Lo Call 1890 222 012, visit the SAORVIEW website: www.saorview.ie or
speak with a SAORVIEW registered retailer or local TV installer/installation company.

Unfortunately there are always traders who will try to take advantage of people on the back of something new, like the change to digital television. As a general rule, if an offer seems too good to be true – in a leaflet, advert, by phone, e-mail or personal approach – it probably is. Be wary and read the details of the deal carefully.

If you think you’ve been deceived or misled in relation to the purchase of digital TV receiving equipment, for example a TV, set-top-box, aerial or satellite dish or the installation of any of this equipment, contact the National Consumer Agency on 1890 432 432 or 01 402 5555.

The National Consumer Agency have prepared independent information on digital television for consumers. It is available on their website:
www.consumerconnect.ie

Johnboy1951 · 15-09-2011 1:20pm

Tony wrote: »

Perhaps but the particular wording used by the trader goes beyond that . If he used the wording you refer to I think there would be less of an outcry by the guys in Wexford.

Maybe so, but I thought - in the absence of direct info about what his 'spiel' was - that there was overreaction.
He is not the first to have less than exact 'advertising' and likely not the last (accepting that his hand written 'poster' was advertising).

... and no I have no connection that I am aware of with the seller- I don't know who he is-, and have never visited the Wexford market.

So what I read was an ambiguous poster which did not define whether the STB was approved or not; no idea if the seller correctly informed customers if the STB was not approved and had limitations. Yes based on price one could assume the STB was not approved, but it would be going a bit far to make assumptions about the info the seller provided, IMO.

regards.

Tony · 15-09-2011 1:30pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Maybe so, but I thought - in the absence of direct info about what his 'spiel' was - that there was overreaction.

Perhaps so but since the thread started I did some checking and theres a lot of anger amongst the trade guys in Wexford so any reaction would be coloured by this

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

He is not the first to have less than exact 'advertising' and likely not the last (accepting that his hand written 'poster' was advertising).

I would agree with that

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

... and no I have no connection that I am aware of with the seller- I don't know who he is-,

I don't think anyone would question that, certainly nothing you have written could lead any reasonable person to think you had any connection.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yes based on price one could assume the STB was not approved, but it would be going a bit far to make assumptions about the info the seller provided, IMO.
regards.

Thats a generous view of the guys intentions, unless he is selling below cost theres no way he can sell an approved box with a kit etc at that price.

sesswhat · 15-09-2011 1:37pm

Tony wrote: »

RTE's view as I understand it is that they invented the word so they believe that its is protected by both copyright and trademark.

Saorview is just a half-Irish version of Freeview, which is itself simply two words stuck together. If 'Saorview' and 'Freeview' are works protected by copyright, then RTE would be in infringment of copyright with their derivative work. The fact is that it applies to neither.

It may be wishful thinking on the part of RTE to think that copyright applies but nothing more.

Johnboy1951 · 15-09-2011 1:41pm

Tony wrote: »

Perhaps so but since the thread started I did some checking and theres a lot of anger amongst the trade guys in Wexford so any reaction would be coloured by this

I can understand the anger where clear misrepresentation is in play. Unfortunately that was not clear in this particular case - at least to this reader.

Thats a generous view of the guys intentions, unless he is selling below cost theres no way he can sell an approved box with a kit etc at that price.

Not so much generous .... but based on the info available I could not condemn the seller.
I am not saying he is doing no wrong ..... he may be, or not ..... but some more info is needed to draw that conclusion.

I note that with some luck we may have more info about the situation after your visit to the area.

I look forward to your post if you get there in time.

regards.

Tony · 15-09-2011 2:10pm

Yeah hopefully I'll get a chance to meet the guy

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I look forward to your post if you get there in time.

regards.

Tony · 15-09-2011 2:12pm

sesswhat wrote: »

It may be wishful thinking on the part of RTE to think that copyright applies but nothing more.

Well if they decide to pursue it will be a court that decides whether their view is correct or not. At this point opinion is not fact.

scruffy66 · 15-09-2011 9:22pm

watty wrote: »

The free to use name is Irish Digital Television, or Irish Digital Terrestrial Television (Irish DTT).

Or Irish channels on DTT.

Saorview is a platform / System. More than DTT and TV channels.

What about using the term saor-view or saor/view or saor[dtt]view or soarview or saor,view or some other variation .

Why have saorview not put a condition on all the retailers that they have
approved , that they can only sell saorview approved boxes and tv's and stop putting it on the installer to only use approved boxes.

scruffy66 · 15-09-2011 10:06pm

STB [Unfortunately there are always traders who will try to take advantage of people on the back of something new, like the change to digital television. As a general rule, if an offer seems too good to be true – in a leaflet, advert, by phone, e-mail or personal approach – it probably is. Be wary and read the details of the deal carefully.].QUOTE]

Are SAORVIEW referring to retailers like DID , POWERCITY , HARVEY NORMAN ETC,

These are retailers who have been saorview approved and have saorview stickers on saorview approved boxes and tv's right next to boxes and tv's
that can receive saorview channels but dont have mpeg 5, which one do
they push more the approved ones or the ones that have a better mark up.

Seems to be a double standard here

Tony · 15-09-2011 10:23pm

That would be illegal

scruffy66 wrote: »

Why have saorview not put a condition on all the retailers that they have
approved , that they can only sell saorview approved boxes and tv's and stop putting it on the installer to only use approved boxes.

scruffy66 · 15-09-2011 10:37pm

Tony wrote: »

That would be illegal

Obviously, i was just pointing to the double standard.

Tony ,Do freeview use digital teletext or any other European broadcaster
and if so how do they broadcast it.

Tony · 15-09-2011 10:51pm

scruffy66 wrote: »

Obviously, i was just pointing to the double standard.

Tony ,Do freeview use digital teletext or any other European broadcaster
and if so how do they broadcast it.

Honestly no idea as I've never dealt with freeview boxes.

byte · 15-09-2011 11:01pm

Freeview use MHEG5, same as Saorview.

Some other Euro broadcasters, I believe, use MHP

lawhec · 15-09-2011 11:25pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Just like anyone can sell a device capable of receiving "Freesat channels" even though it is not a Freesat compliant device .... the same applies to "Saorview channels" being received on a non approved (by Saorview) device.

The trademark is not being infringed.

Freesat is not marketed to viewers in the Republic of Ireland however. It is of little concern of the Freesat consortium if their service is being mis-sold outside the UK. However if a dealer was selling generic FTA receivers in the UK as being "Freesat" or "Freesat Compatible"* when they are not, then they would take a very dim view of the infringer, sending out at least a Cease and Desist Order.

* "Freesat from Sky" isn't seen as an infringement as it was formally launched before Freesat, and is distinctly being offered by Sky.

Just to expand on what Byte has said, the MHEG5 profile for Saorview is the same one as used by Freeview in the UK. Users of MHEG on Freeview include the BBC, Teletext, Sky, Television X and Red Hot TV. Probably a couple of others. It is possible to use MHEG for a simple encryption system. In Continental Europe, some countries have simply transferred their WST Teletext services on to their DVB-T services (the same way it is done in Ireland) that is available by the text button on a STB or TV remote.

scruffy66 · 15-09-2011 11:32pm

byte wrote: »

Freeview use MHEG5, same as Saorview.

Some other Euro broadcasters, I believe, use MHP

That should eventually make mpeg 5 standard in all TV'S , so every TV sold could have digital teletext.

Now if SAORVIEW could encourage manufacturers to make saorview
approved combo boxes instead of charging them , we might have more
to choose from and the price might drop.

This will encourage installers to use saorview approved combo boxes.

After all in a recession , the customer is being dictated to by price.

All though i agree people should not use somebodies logo without
permission , in this case i think its like saying it shouldn't rain.

The Cush · 16-09-2011 12:04am

byte wrote: »

Freeview use MHEG5, same as Saorview.

Some other Euro broadcasters, I believe, use MHP

Yes MHP is the continential standard but at least 1 broadcaster is shutting down its MHP service due to lack of viewer interest. HbbTV appears to be the future.

Some European DTT broadcasters continue to use the traditional EBU teletext on their DTT services e.g. Holland, Germany.

The Cush · 16-09-2011 12:16am

scruffy66 wrote: »

Now if SAORVIEW could encourage manufacturers to make saorview
approved combo boxes instead of charging them , we might have more
to choose from and the price might drop.

Saorview doesn't charge manufacturers. Testing is carried out independently of RTÉ, by Teracom for a fee.

Saorview approvals process

Tony · 16-09-2011 8:54am

Honestly thats splitting hairs, Teracom are contracted to Saorview to carry out the testing. Either way a fee of 20K has to be paid by the manufacturer which for the size of this market is unrealistic hence the small number of approved devices. And since RTE dictated the spec its hardly independent.

The Cush wrote: »

Saorview doesn't charge manufacturers. Testing is carried out independently of RTÉ, by Teracom for a fee.

Saorview approvals process

The Cush · 16-09-2011 9:32am

Tony wrote: »

Honestly thats splitting hairs,

The point was Saorview doesn't charge for testing, Teracom does to a standard set by Nordig and RTÉ.

Should RTÉ subsidise the testing?

Tony · 16-09-2011 9:43am

They do charge by default, to suggest otherwise is frankly ridiculous .The real point is that certification is too expensive and deters manufacturers from entering the market. To get certification you have to pay 20K , does not matter who cashes the cheque its still 20k.

As scruffy points out they should be encouraging more manufacturers not deterring them , their arrogance led them to believe that they would have a line of manufacturers waiting to get on board.

The Cush wrote: »

The point was Saorview doesn't charge for testing, Teracom does to a standard set by Nordig and RTÉ.

The Cush · 16-09-2011 10:19am

Tony wrote: »

To get certification you have to pay 20K , does not matter who cashes the cheque its still 20k.

As scruffy points out they should be encouraging more manufacturers not deterring them , their arrogance led them to believe that they would have a line of manufacturers waiting to get on board.

Back to my original point Teracom sets and receives the fee and cashes the cheque with no benefit to RTÉ or the Irish economy.

So should RTÉ subsidise the Teracom testing or carry it out themselves or dispense with compliance testing (OEM self-compliance) to encourage more manufacturers to supply compatible receivers?

I believe the UK may be looking at the latter post-DSO.

Tony · 16-09-2011 10:28am

I'm open to correction but I thought that Uk always had OEM self compliance ?

The Cush wrote: »

or dispense with compliance testing (OEM self-compliance) to encourage more manufacturers to supply compatible receivers?

I believe the UK may be looking at the latter post-DSO.

The Cush · 16-09-2011 10:33am

Tony wrote: »

I'm open to correction but I thought that Uk always had OEM self compliance ?

DTG Testing for Freeview D-Book compliance.

Tony · 16-09-2011 12:16pm

The Cush wrote: »

DTG Testing for Freeview D-Book compliance.

Thanks for that . Reason I mentioned was because at the first meeting we had with RTE they said they were going with terracom as "self certification" in the Uk had not worked . Any idea what DTG charge for testing?

STB · 16-09-2011 1:36pm

Tony wrote: »

Thanks for that . Reason I mentioned was because at the first meeting we had with RTE they said they were going with terracom as "self certification" in the Uk had not worked . Any idea what DTG charge for testing?

There are different test suites for different products and their funcionality, Freeview/Freeview HD/MHEG/DTR. The test suites themselves are available from the conformance centre.

http://www.dtgtesting.com

Tony · 16-09-2011 1:41pm

Thanks , i'm wondering are they in the 20k ballpark or less , even at that its a flawed comparison price wise as the market is the UK is more than 10 times larger.

STB wrote: »

There are different test suites for different products and their funcionality, Freeview/Freeview HD/MHEG/DTR. The test suites themselves are available from the conformance centre.

http://www.dtgtesting.com

lawhec · 16-09-2011 3:19pm

Tony wrote: »

Thanks , i'm wondering are they in the 20k ballpark or less , even at that its a flawed comparison price wise as the market is the UK is more than 10 times larger.

But the cost of a compliance test will likely still be around the same regardless of the size of the market it is intended to be served in. I'm not sure what €20k is required for covering the test but it would be fairer to make a comparison with other countries using the NorDig spec to see how much is charged there.

NewHillel · 16-09-2011 5:53pm

lawhec wrote: »

But the cost of a compliance test will likely still be around the same regardless of the size of the market it is intended to be served in. I'm not sure what €20k is required for covering the test but it would be fairer to make a comparison with other countries using the NorDig spec to see how much is charged there.

In fairness, €20k is not a lot of money for a full suite of compliance tests. One way of making it cheaper would be to allow a derivative test where the manufacturer already had proven conformance to the NorDig spec. In this case only the delta with the existing spec would have to be tested.
In any case the size of the market has only limited impact, as you state. It does/should have some impact as it should be possible to susbstantially reuse the same test bed and test cases for a particular class of equipment, regardless of the manufacturer. Therefore, as the number of items to be tested increases, the cost of individual tests should decrease.

Tony · 17-09-2011 2:27pm

lawhec wrote: »

But the cost of a compliance test will likely still be around the same regardless of the size of the market it is intended to be served in.

Yes but in a bigger market theres a better opportunity to re coup the cost

Sam Russell · 21-09-2011 9:55am

NewHillel wrote: »

In fairness, €20k is not a lot of money for a full suite of compliance tests. One way of making it cheaper would be to allow a derivative test where the manufacturer already had proven conformance to the NorDig spec. In this case only the delta with the existing spec would have to be tested.
In any case the size of the market has only limited impact, as you state. It does/should have some impact as it should be possible to susbstantially reuse the same test bed and test cases for a particular class of equipment, regardless of the manufacturer. Therefore, as the number of items to be tested increases, the cost of individual tests should decrease.

That is the case. The Saorview test fee for an already Nordig approved iDTV or STB is much lower. Can't remember but it is much lower.

Saorview Name and Logo

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