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M6 - is the Galway Bypass necessary? (thread split)

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    #242
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    1. I didn't raise any question about Nix, AFAIK. Nix is not the issue

    When you based your argument on a document from Nix, you opened the door for questioning of the document, and Mr Nixs conclusions. Are you going to defend it or not?
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    2. You have stated that the Bypass is needed for economic development. My point is that the development of Galway City should not be/have been predicated on a non-existent bypass.

    I never said that the development of Galway is predicated on a bypass. You are the only person I have seen or heard say it in that fashion. The argument I have made consistently, which I have heard from numerous sources, is that the lack of a bypass is costing productivity and jobs. IMO we can't develop any further without a bypass, for various reasons including the provision of PT. In case you haven't noticed we funnel all the traffic within 800m of the center of town, with a large amount going just off it (the docks). Simple logistics demands proper dispersal of traffic - something you don't seem to be able to get your head around.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Please don't make stuff up. I didn't laugh at that commuter map

    Really what were you laughing at here then:
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Laugh? I nearly dropped my little netbook...
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The lack of PT is not due to history but to bad "planning", IMO. History doesn't happen, it is made.
    Really, go check the census you'll find that the concept of one off houses in Galway is far from a new one.


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    #243
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I inserted some extra factoids with links for you. I avoided the Galway Rural Area , eg Castlegar and Menlo mainly and typically around 2000 persons , and stuck to the Borough Boundary population which covered the city until it spilt over in the 1960s.
    tharlear wrote: »
    QUOTE]

    http://ncg.nuim.ie/content/projects/famine/maps/pop/Galway/
    Population of Galway city
    1926 14,858

    ( Wolfe Tone Bridge Built in 1934 to relieve congestion, Galway now has 3 bridges , wahaaay)

    1936 18,294

    Thats 18,000 odd persons and 3 bridges. There were LOADS of cars in Galway in 1936 were there not.
    1946 20,370

    1946

    1951 21,316
    1956 21,219
    1961 22,028
    1966 24,597
    1971 27,725 Irelands still an Ag county

    Note that there were no large industrial employers in Galway bar the textile factory beside Cemetary Cross and IMI, an anorexic service industry, no GMIT and a tiny UCG and much smaller Regional Hospital in 1971

    1981 41 116 Ireland begins transition away from Ag (STILL 3 bridges in Galway) city boundary changes around this time and much of old rural district is added to Urban District.
    1991 47284 transition continues
    2002 56750 Irelands no longer an Ag county
    2011 75414 2011 census
    These numbers do not include Barna Furbagh, spiddle, Oranmore, etc.

    Galway Boundary change in 1985 took over most of Galway Rural ( leaving a smidge of Bushypark or Menlo) , some of Barna , Ballintemple and Carrowbrowne EDs

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1985/en/act/pub/0007/sched4.html


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    #244
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Today, it took me an extra hour to cross town, 3 of us in the van going to a job, that's 3 man hours wasted, an expense i'll never get back. How much time / money is it costing business people alone wasting time stuck in traffic because of lack of a vital piece of infrastructure called a bypass?


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    #245
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    On front page of advertiser, "Outer Bypass to be included in new NDP out in October" and "is one of the highest ranking roads in terms of cost/benefit analysis conducted by Dept. of Transport in relation to every proposed road under consideration"

    I swear this thread is making cyclists seem like arrogant and inconsiderate snobs, the bypass will take cars out of the city that have no choice but to cross in the city due to lack of crossings, how hard is that to understand? Would Dublin be a better place for cyclists and pedestrians if there was no m50?


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    #246
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    galwayrush wrote: »
    Today, it took me an extra hour to cross town, 3 of us in the van going to a job, that's 3 man hours wasted, an expense i'll never get back. How much time / money is it costing business people alone wasting time stuck in traffic because of lack of a vital piece of infrastructure called a bypass?

    It's ridiculous!

    A friend of mine had to pay a visit to the Galway Shopping Centre last week or the week before. It took her an hour to get back out of the Shopping Centre car park because traffic was so bad.

    The traffic is seriously damaging to the local economy. I don't know why anyone would want to come anywhere near Galway unless it was a matter of life and death. There are alternative towns which don't have crippling traffic.


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    #247
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    On front page of advertiser, "Outer Bypass to be included in new NDP out in October" and "is one of the highest ranking roads in terms of cost/benefit analysis conducted by Dept. of Transport in relation to every proposed road under consideration"

    I swear this thread is making cyclists seem like arrogant and inconsiderate snobs, the bypass will take cars out of the city that have no choice but to cross in the city due to lack of crossings, how hard is that to understand? Would Dublin be a better place for cyclists and pedestrians if there was no m50?




    Cyclists arrogant and snobbish? How so?

    By the way, apart from suggesting that cyclists go around with their noses in the air, are you suggesting that any poster arguing the case for cycling promotion in this thread has expressed direct, categorical and unequivocal opposition to the GCOB? If so please provide quotes and links.

    "No choice"? Who has no choice? Clearly there is no choice for commercial traffic, which by its very nature must be able to reach a wide range of locations without inordinate delay.

    Does the same apply to all commuters though? If not, what is the potential for reducing unnecessary car traffic (which gets in the way of the necessary commercial traffic) through modal shift, especially to public transport?

    Here's an excerpt from the Galway Public Transport Feasibility Study, published last year:
    The baseline evaluation found a very high level of car use particularly for work journeys in the City and in the remainder of the study area. The regionally dispersed settlement patterns challenges public transport provision. In addition, with poor permeability provided for walking or cycling in residential locations, and the car culture apparently established in key employment areas such as Ballybrit/ Parkmore and the NUIG/ University Hospital serve to reinforce the very high car use. This is indisputably unsustainable, from economic, environmental, social and public health perspectives.

    Conversely there are indications of unrealised potential for more walking and cycling. This comes from census data relating to work and school trips made in the City, where walking and cycling levels are found to be nearly double the national average and constitute the highest mode of travel. This together with the fact that walking and cycling levels for work purposes were higher just twelve years ago suggesting that Galway has strong potential to support higher levels of both. This suggests that there might be some value in exploring in more detail why more work trips are not also being made by foot or on bike as a form of ‘active travel’.
    Emphasis added. Interestingly, the SWOT analysis conducted as part of that study identified the GCOB as both an opportunity and a threat. In very broad terms that corresponds with my own perspective, and probably that of cycling advocates too, though I won't try to put words in their mouth.


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    #248
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Cyclists arrogant and snobbish? How so?

    Thats the impression one gets reading this thread,
    and thats coming from someone who spend years cycling in Galway.

    The bypass is well outside the city and will take traffic out and around the city center making it possible to build the things you want such as more bus lanes and cyclelanes. It baffles my mind the anyone would be opposed to the bypass on the grounds that it would make things worse for cyclists/pedestrians.


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    #249
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Thats the impression one gets reading this thread,
    and thats coming from someone who spend years cycling in Galway.

    The bypass is well outside the city and will take traffic out and around the city center making it possible to build the things you want such as more bus lanes and cyclelanes. It baffles my mind the anyone would be opposed to the bypass on the grounds that it would make things worse for cyclists/pedestrians.



    I'll ask again, are you suggesting that any poster arguing the case for cycling promotion in this thread has expressed direct, categorical and unequivocal opposition to the GCOB? If so please provide quotes and links.

    And while I'm at it, what evidence can you point to which would indicate that a GCOB will make things better for cyclists/pedestrians?

    There is no bypass. There will be no bypass until 2017 at the very earliest.

    There are many measures that could be implemented in the short and medium term, at a fraction of the cost of a bypass, which would make things better for cyclists and pedestrians. And bus users, let's not forget them.

    What is the evidence that such measures are to be implemented before, during or after construction of a bypass?


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    #250
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Half the town is dug up, was just dug up or is about to be dug up for cyclists pedestrians and buses, what planet are you on.????


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    #251
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    tharlear wrote: »
    It was cheaper to build a large one off 10km to 20km out of town than it was to buy a small box of a house in the outer Galway suburbs.

    antoobrien wrote: »
    go check the census you'll find that the concept of one off houses in Galway is far from a new one.



    Not a new phenomenon, but not one that's about to go away any time soon either. Which is why a GCOB could conceivably facilitate more of the same sporadic, uncoordinated and unsustainable development.

    BTW, I have been told anecdotally that "one-off" planning applications to Galway Co Co during the peak Celtic Casino years ran to about 8000 annually. That was a lot of pressure, and such lifestyle pursuits haven't gone away you know.





    SuddenlyOne-OffsThousandsofthem800px.jpg


    1. Typical landscape in the Barna/Furbo/Tonabrocky area, near the route of the Galway City Outer Bypass. Unspoilt? See photo #5.

    2. Typical rural road in the area, with long-established boundaries of mixed hedgerows and stone walls. The cluster of poles and wires indicates the growth of new housing development nearby.

    3. Large “one-off” detached house on typically large site, still under construction, located in open bog landscape.

    4. Typical farmland in the area. This particular stretch of rural road has seen the construction of several “one-off” houses in recent years.

    5. Large detached house on elevated site, directly facing the scene in photo #1. The occupants of this house own at least two cars between them, as do many such households throughout County Galway.

    6. Several large detached houses recently constructed on formerly rural boreen. Galway County Council practice for many years has been to require the setting back of the frontage of such properties. National guidelines since 2005, as set out in the policy document Sustainable Rural Housing: Guidelines for Planning Authorities state:
    The removal of existing roadside boundaries, except to the extent that this is needed for a new entrance, should be avoided where at all possible except where required for traffic safety purposes. Roadside boundaries, whether hedgerows, sod and stone bank, stone wall or other boundaries, provide important features that are elements of both the landscape and ecology of rural areas. The retention of such boundary treatments assists in absorbing new rural housing into its surrounding and should generally be encouraged.

    There is little or no evidence that these guidelines have had any impact on County Galway “one-off” construction in recent years.

    7. Another narrow boreen featuring several “one-off” houses, some constructed within the last 3-5 years or even more recently. The surface and edges of the road – more likely a cart track, historically — have been damaged by traffic that it was never built to sustain.

    8. Another boreen where the long-established boundary of hedgerows, earth banks and stone walls have been obliterated to make room for large detached sites and their frontages. The surface of this road is pitted with potholes, while the edges are crumbling to traffic passing in both directions. Such roads were never designed for regular car traffic of this nature, and maintaining them (wherever and whenever possible) is a major cost for the local authority.

    9. According to the current Galway County development plan, the Council “acknowledges” that “some persons from urban areas seek a rural lifestyle with the option of working in and travelling to and from, nearby larger cities and towns.” These lifestyle-motivated urban rural dwellers evidently favour substantial detached properties far larger than the typical 105-125 sq metre semi-detached homes in the town or city, such as this split-level residence on an extensive elevated site west of Galway City.

    10. One reason for the irreversible alteration of the rural landscape in County Galway: construction of massive houses on massive sites, such as this one. It is probably three to four times the size of an average house in Galway City, while the site is probably ten times bigger or more.

    11. The Urban Rural Dwellers dream: huge grounds with space for cars, lawn, swing and trampoline.

    12. Yet another example of the lifestyle being aspired to in the hinterland around the GCOB: massive house, extensive landscaped gardens, imposing gateway.


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    #252
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Half the town is dug up, was just dug up or is about to be dug up for cyclists pedestrians and buses, what planet are you on.????



    The N6 upgrade (removal of roundabouts, installation of signals, implementation of AUTC) is primarily aimed at relieving motorised traffic congestion, although it is also being touted as a benefit for bus users, cyclists and pedestrians.

    If that turns out to be the case, then it's a welcome development.

    The removal of the roundabouts in particular has been the focus of a hysterical opposition campaign. Good to see certain Councillors showing some vision and determination for once.

    So great, a new era for sustainable transport in Galway City? Let's see.

    Other changes are coming very slowly, if at all.

    What are the chances of Smarter Travel being funded and implemented properly? What are the chances of the National Cycle Policy Framework being taken seriously? Where are the plans for speed control, parking control, traffic calming, more pedestrian priority crossings, one-way street exemptions, removal or alteration of all the other roundabouts, remedial action to fix permeability issues, bus shelters etc?

    The point is: serious 'active transport' measures are needed now. Sitting in our cars and moaning about the lack of a bypass until 2017 is not an option, IMO.


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    #253
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Half the town is dug up, was just dug up or is about to be dug up for cyclists pedestrians and buses, what planet are you on.????

    That's untrue. Works currently have not been just for these groups. Majority of the work being undertaken right now today is resurfacing works and they benefit everybody. The traffic light upgrade on the N6/N59 will benefit motorists, cyclists and pedestrians.


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    #254
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    1. Typical landscape in the Barna/Furbo/Tonabrocky area, near the route of the Galway City Outer Bypass. Unspoilt? See photo #5.

    Ah take it to the one off thread why don't you.

    Galway's problem is not down to a rash of new one off houses - it's down the the changing nature of employment in the country. You might notice that there are increasingly larger numbers of people working in large towns, with decreasing numbers working in smaller towns and the country side.

    And since you think that rural dwelling is a new thing here's some figures for you. Taken from the 1956 census there were approx 45k (21k of this Galway city) living in towns/villages of 200 or greater, out of a population of 155k for Galway county, leaving about 110,000 living in one off / rural houses. In 2006 the figures were 115k (72k Galway city) and 230k respectively. That's about 115k living in rural/one off houses.

    When they publish the urban area reports (as opposed to the electoral divisions reports which have been published) I'll throw those into the mix as well.

    What's the difference in 50 years? Jobs, in quantity and pay.


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    #255
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Ah take it to the one off thread why don't you.

    Galway's problem is not down to a rash of new one off houses - it's down the the changing nature of employment in the country. You might notice that there are increasingly larger numbers of people working in large towns, with decreasing numbers working in smaller towns and the country side.

    The flight of employment to LARGE towns is undoubted and certain posters in this thread are unwilling to address this employment flight. It applies to all large towns, not just Galway. On the other hand Tuam and Ballinasloe have lost many of _their_ employers with no replacements in sight.

    There is also an element of flight out of these large towns to build one offs , particularly among the middle classes who simply loathe the substandard noisy shoe box semis built in Galway City in the past 50 years and can afford to escape from them.

    One simple solution is to build proper houses with soundproofing in the city itself but we kinda missed the boat on that one did we not?? :cool:


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    #256
    tharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    6. Several large detached houses recently constructed on formerly rural boreen. Galway County Council practice for many years has been to require the setting back of the frontage of such properties. National guidelines since 2005, as set out in the policy document Sustainable Rural Housing: Guidelines for Planning Authorities state:
    The removal of existing roadside boundaries, except to the extent that this is needed for a new entrance, should be avoided where at all possible except where required for traffic safety purposes. Roadside boundaries, whether hedgerows, sod and stone bank, stone wall or other boundaries, provide important features that are elements of both the landscape and ecology of rural areas. The retention of such boundary treatments assists in absorbing new rural housing into its surrounding and should generally be encouraged.

    There is little or no evidence that these guidelines have had any impact on County Galway “one-off” construction in recent years.

    My uncle’s house in rural south Galway has a similar set back of the wall from the road.
    House was built in the late 1800’s and the wall is a photo from 30’s. It’s a common feature.

    7. Another narrow boreen featuring several “one-off” houses, some constructed within the last 3-5 years or even more recently. The surface and edges of the road – more likely a cart track, historically — have been damaged by traffic that it was never built to sustain.


    8. Another boreen where the long-established boundary of hedgerows, earth banks and stone walls have been obliterated to make room for large detached sites and their frontages. The surface of this road is pitted with potholes, while the edges are crumbling to traffic passing in both directions. Such roads were never designed for regular car traffic of this nature, and maintaining them (wherever and whenever possible) is a major cost for the local authority.





    But the population when these roads were built was many times larger than it is today. I would guess that tractors and trucks hauling milk etc do more damage to roads than any private car. For example near my uncle’s farm which is over 30 km from the city over 15 houses have been built in the last 20 years. Approx 8 by children of farmers, another 4 from people outside the area. . 3 of the houses were built to move people out of flooding prone areas, 2 of which were 80 year old dwellings
    However they are still less houses in the area than there were 1950’s. Many of the old cottages and land commission houses that were abandoned in the 30’s 40’s and 50’s are now barley visible if they have not been knocked. 6 of the 15 houses are on the sites where farms/cottages/houses once stood.

    GALWAY total City County
    1841 441822 26979 414843
    1851 323391 29878 293513
    1861 272741 21464 251277
    1871 247390 16992 230398
    1881 239827 16607 223220
    1891 212737 14771 197966
    1901 196871 14243 182628
    1911 186369 13990 172379
    1926 173521 14858 158663
    1936 172031 18930 153101
    1951 163632 22035 141597
    1961 151919 23686 128233
    1971 151041 29495 121546
    1981 173849 41116 132733
    1991 177931 47284 130647
    2002 201008 56750 144258
    2011 250000 75414 174586



    Population bottoms out in 1970, where we see the beginning of bungalow “blitz”,

    population of county with all the one's is only up 50000
    (tried to load a chart but could not figure it out)

    9. According to the current Galway County development plan, the Council “acknowledges” that “some persons from urban areas seek a rural lifestyle with the option of working in and travelling to and from, nearby larger cities and towns.” These lifestyle-motivated urban rural dwellers evidently favour substantial detached properties far larger than the typical 105-125 sq metre semi-detached homes in the town or city, such as this split-level residence on an extensive elevated site west of Galway City.


    And finally we have the real answer to why we have so much one off housing built in the last 20 years, "the size of the typically overpriced typical 105-125 sq metre semi-detached homes in the town or city"
    People are voting were there feet (wheels) and refusing to buy what they don’t want. Development of proper suburbs with reasonable sized houses and gardens was prevented. Just compare the gardens in the old housing estates in salthill (glenard) to the 80’s in clybaun to the 90’s in clybaun to the 00’s off the distributer road. Ever decreasing until there was nothing left but ironically place to park cars in front of the house/apt. These small lots were forced on people thru a combination of developer greed backed up by political correctness (which they did not believe). Those with the means, built what they wanted where they could, with the same politicians help


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    #257
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    please clean up the quotes - it's nearly impossible to follow

    edit: If you want to load a chart take a screenshot and attach the image


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    #258
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Wednesday, 14 September 2011

    N6 bus lanes will cause more problems
    http://www.galwayindependent.com/letters/letters/n6-bus-lanes-will-cause-more-problems-20110914/

    "
    The 2011 Census shows that population has increased in Galway county. It is now 99,813, an increase of ten per cent. The population within the city is 75,127. This has implications for our transport infrastructure and has to be factored into any changes.

    Sincerely,
    Cllr Nuala Nolan,
    24 Bowling Green
    Galway

    "
    she also states:
    "
    The N6 was originally meant to be a ring road not an urban street and it is clear that this must be a free flow traffic area at least as far as Terryland. It is a national road directly linked to the motorway, so putting in bus lanes on the N6 will naturally mean less space for motorists. This will cause more problems than it will solve.
    "
    This is the first I have heard of this? I believe this is misinformation on her part as I cannot see Bus Lane idea being a runner on any section of the N6 until the GCOB is built?


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    #259
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    what_traffic wrote: »
    Wednesday, 14 September 2011

    N6 bus lanes will cause more problems
    http://www.galwayindependent.com/letters/letters/n6-bus-lanes-will-cause-more-problems-20110914/

    "
    The 2011 Census shows that population has increased in Galway county.

    Probably referring to the Galway Metropolitan Area* referred to in the city council smarter travel area

    * delusions of grandeur possibly?


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    #260
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Probably referring to the Galway Metropolitan Area* referred to in the city council smarter travel area

    * delusions of grandeur possibly?

    Thanks. That makes alot more sense - was wondering did the Galway Indo have any proof readers at all. I suppose "Galway Metropolitan Area" would include Barna, Moycullen, Claregalway and Oranmore?


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    #261
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    what_traffic wrote: »
    T I suppose "Galway Metropolitan Area" would include Barna, Moycullen, Claregalway and Oranmore?


    Everywhere for 20 miles should be including and including Tuam Loughrea Oughterard Gort and Rossaveal + points in between.

    The population growth projections are a tad crazy but they were supplied by the Dept of the Environment as official projections I'll wager.

    http://www.galwaycity.ie/AllServices/RoadsandTraffic/Publications/FileEnglish,4857,en.pdf

    See page 18 for the map. I'd have thought nearer 150,000 meself.


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    #262
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Everywhere for 20 miles should be including and including Tuam Loughrea Oughterard Gort and Rossaveal + points in between.

    The population growth projections are a tad crazy but they were supplied by the Dept of the Environment as official projections I'll wager.

    http://www.galwaycity.ie/AllServices/RoadsandTraffic/Publications/FileEnglish,4857,en.pdf

    See page 18 for the map. I'd have thought nearer 150,000 meself.

    But what makes up the figure in her letter "99,813"?


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    #263
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Anybody know if new plans are being drawn up by Galway Councty Council for the N59/R335 section of the GCOB i.e the part An Bord Pleanala shot down?
    Are they going to submit one of the other proposed routes? Cannot see the GCOB being anywhere as effective for the West side of the city and South Connemara until this section is included?


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    #264
    ?Cee?view
    Registered Users Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    On the subject of the GCOB, as opposed to bicycles, does anyone know if anything has happened with the case in Europe?

    Are they any closer to a decision?


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    #265
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    what_traffic wrote: »
    But what makes up the figure in her letter "99,813"?
    Somehow i've came out with 11 more (probably 1/2 small errors in the numbers) but it looks like Galway City & the populations of the following electoral areas as taken from this years census:

    042 Baile an Teampaill (Part Rural), Co. Galway 1,460
    043 Ballynacourty, Co. Galway 1,161
    044 Bearna (Part Rural), Co. Galway 3,725
    046 An Carn Mór, Co. Galway 2,604
    047 Ceathrú an Bhrúnaigh (Part Rural), Co. Galway 905
    048 Baile Chláir, Co. Galway 2,008
    049 Clarinbridge, Co. Galway 3,271
    050 Deerpark, Co. Galway 1,314
    051 Na Forbacha, Co. Galway 1,313
    052 Galway Rural (Part Rural), Co. Galway 126
    059 Maigh Cuilinn, Co. Galway 2,006
    060 Oranmore, Co. Galway 4,321
    075 Kiltullagh, Co. Galway 196 - Monivea road near the airport, not off the M6
    Total 24,410
    Galway City 75,414
    Total Area 99,824


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    #266
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Crudely 8 miles from Eyre Square, substitute clonboo/annaghdown for Kiltullagh maybe.


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    #267
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    churchview wrote: »
    On the subject of the GCOB, as opposed to bicycles, does anyone know if anything has happened with the case in Europe?

    Are they any closer to a decision?

    I was right back in april, they hadn't referred the questions to the ECJ.

    It has been officially referred to Europe as of May of this year.

    A quick google revealed an article from the times in May, this quite gives a concise summary of the case:
    The planning board found that while the road would have “localised severe impact” on part of the Lough Corrib conservation area, this did not “adversely affect the integrity of the site concerned”.

    However, environmental campaigner Peter Sweetman claimed An Bord Pleanála was wrong in its interpretation of the habitats directive. His challenge to the board’s decision is supported by Ireland, the Attorney General, and the Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

    In its referral to Europe, the Supreme Court said the “essential legal issue in respect of which a response from the Court of Justice is sought” related to whether a body such as An Bord Pleanála had authority to approve development which involved “the destruction and permanent loss” of part of a listed priority habitat, other than in special exemptions under the habitats directive itself.

    The Supreme Court is also seeking clarity on the “true construction” of phrases such as “adverse effect on the integrity of the site”.

    Last June the five-judge Supreme Court, presided over by the Chief Justice, Mr Justice John Murray, granted the application for referral to the European Court of Justice.

    Earlier this month, the Courts Service wrote to the parties involved to say the request had been sent to that court.

    Full text: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0531/1224298147042.html


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    #268
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Ah take it to the one off thread why don't you.

    Galway's problem is not down to a rash of new one off houses - it's down the the changing nature of employment in the country. You might notice that there are increasingly larger numbers of people working in large towns, with decreasing numbers working in smaller towns and the country side.

    And since you think that rural dwelling is a new thing here's some figures for you. Taken from the 1956 census there were approx 45k (21k of this Galway city) living in towns/villages of 200 or greater, out of a population of 155k for Galway county, leaving about 110,000 living in one off / rural houses. In 2006 the figures were 115k (72k Galway city) and 230k respectively. That's about 115k living in rural/one off houses.

    When they publish the urban area reports (as opposed to the electoral divisions reports which have been published) I'll throw those into the mix as well.

    What's the difference in 50 years? Jobs, in quantity and pay.




    I wasn't aware of a "one off thread" but I'll certainly take a look at it.

    Boards has its own internal logic, but the issue of one-off housing in County Galway and environs is very germane to the bypass issue, IMO, so I think it belongs in this thread too.

    You developed a (thankfully brief) fixation earlier with the inadequacies of James Nix's analyses. However, IIRC you haven't acknowledged at all those regional strategies and analyses that I have referred to, such as the Galway Transportation and Planning Study which specifically identifies "sporadic and uncoordinated development within the rural hinterlands of Galway City and County" as a cause both of traffic congestion and of unviable public transport.

    The Sustainable Rural Housing Guidelines refer to these hinterlands as "rural areas under strong urban influence" and also point out that in the West "up to 70% [of households] live in the open countryside".

    It is evident that the many thousands of urban rural-dwellers (many of them households with two cars or even more) in the wide swathe of commuter-land around Galway City are not only putting pressure on the all the boreens and bog roads leading to their haciendas, but also on the arterial routes leading to and through the city itself.

    Populism and denial: two of the pillars that have sustained Ireland's political system for decades, as well as paving the way for the Celtic Casino fiasco.

    Despite living in one of those "substandard noisy shoe box semis" (funnily enough, still about 25-30% larger than some of the European apartments I've stayed in) I missed the huge clamour from the general electorate for better soundproofing in suburban dwellings. However, I do recall a lot of vehement protests led by FF TDs like Eamon O Cuiv and Frank Fahey against Galway County Council's alleged "dictatorial" attitude to one-off housing.

    There is no doubt in my mind that a sizeable portion of the demand for the GCOB is coming either from those who want to facilitate their private car commute from their rambling ranch in remotest Rahoon or else those who see the bypass as a means of facilitating yet more such development well into the future.

    At the height of the Celtic Casino construction bubble, here's what a local auctioneer had to say about such prospects:
    Galway City and County is governed by development plans which have plan boundaries. If we were to compare what is happening in other towns and cities that have been bypassed, land tends to become zoned inside the ring road, bypass, etc and these roads tend to become the new plan boundary. Areas in Knocknacarra, Bushypark, Menlo, Castlegar, Barna and Briarhill will be opened up. Already there is a local area plan being prepared for a section of land between the Monivea Road, the Tuam Road and the Parkmore Road and inside the GCOB.
    And here's another revealing excerpt from the same authors, still on the KMS website:
    [The GCOB] will make commuting time from all of these areas much more accessible, creating serious opportunities for land development and providing further opportunities for house buyers, warehouses, commercial buildings, shopping centres and park and ride. Bearing in mind the continuation of the provision of the infrastructural services like sewer, water, energy and roads which will open up enormous development potential.


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    #269
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    churchview wrote: »
    On the subject of the GCOB, as opposed to bicycles, does anyone know if anything has happened with the case in Europe?

    Are they any closer to a decision?

    antoobrien wrote: »
    I was right back in april, they hadn't referred the questions to the ECJ.

    It has been officially referred to Europe as of May of this year.

    A quick google revealed an article from the times in May, this quite gives a concise summary of the case:

    Full text: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0531/1224298147042.html




    So on the subject of stalled traffic, as opposed to bicycles, how long must we wait for Godot GCOB?






    EDIT:

    "However, environmental campaigner Peter Sweetman claimed An Bord Pleanála was wrong in its interpretation of the habitats directive. His challenge to the board’s decision is supported by Ireland, the Attorney General, and the Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government."

    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    ... chief time and money waster Sweetman. A right axis of weasels he finds himself in company with.




    Looks like the "right axis of weasels" also includes not just the AG and the Minister for EH&LG but this entire country! ;)


  • Options
    #270
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    It is evident that the many thousands of urban rural-dwellers (many of them households with two cars or even more) in the wide swathe of commuter-land around Galway City are not only putting pressure on the all the boreens and bog roads leading to their haciendas, but also on the arterial routes leading to and through the city itself.

    Populism and denial: two of the pillars that have sustained Ireland's political system for decades, as well as paving the way for the Celtic Casino fiasco.

    Despite living in one of those "substandard noisy shoe box semis"

    Now I get it, you bought into the casino and are now living in a negative equity house that's a poor quality build and will probably fall down in 10-20 years and can't stand the fact that you can hear the neighbour boiling the kettle. The real problem here is that you're jealous of the people whom you think are rich in the country side and your trying to hide it behind all these reports.

    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    You developed a (thankfully brief) fixation earlier with the inadequacies of James Nix's analyses.

    I'm not the one that suggested we base transport policy (in this case an argument against the bypass) on a report that has flawed data and analysis. I didn't attempt to distance myself from said report and attempted to cover it with other data. I'm not the one that refuses to acknowledge the fact that the findings may be flawed flawed by the data and may undermine the argument being made.

    Reading the document again it looks like he collected data specifically to support a proposal for a property tax in line with his ideology.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The Sustainable Rural Housing Guidelines refer to these hinterlands as "rural areas under strong urban influence" and also point out that in the West "up to 70% [of households] live in the open countryside".

    Not much changed since the 50's imagine that. Wait no, farming is no longer viable for the population and due to the requirement for large numbers of employees companies are requiring us to travel to towns for work. How inconsiderate of them not to provide us with a property in the town and supply the bus to bring us to work.

    I notice you've studiously ignored the fact that there were only 5k more people living in rural Galway (as defined by the cso) in 2006 that there were in 1956.

    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    At the height of the Celtic Casino construction bubble, here's what a local auctioneer had to say about such prospects:
    Galway City and County is governed by development plans which have plan boundaries. If we were to compare what is happening in other towns and cities that have been bypassed, land tends to become zoned inside the ring road, bypass, etc and these roads tend to become the new plan boundary. Areas in Knocknacarra, Bushypark, Menlo, Castlegar, Barna and Briarhill will be opened up. Already there is a local area plan being prepared for a section of land between the Monivea Road, the Tuam Road and the Parkmore Road and inside the GCOB.
    I've seen the area plan for the area in bold - it's at least 6 years old (it was before I had to leave Galway as an economic refugee), IIRC it was prepared by the county council, ala Ardaun. It's a fully laid out plan for what would effectively a new fully serviced village - the kind of thing you should be happy about because it shows forward planning. Given your general attitude I'm convinced you're against any kind of development in Galway whatsoever.

    By the way the selected route was published in 2001, so it likely that at some property developers have already been conned out of their money for at least some of that land at the height of the boom.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    And here's another revealing excerpt from the same authors, still on the KMS website:
    [The GCOB] will make commuting time from all of these areas much more accessible, creating serious opportunities for land development and providing further opportunities for house buyers, warehouses, commercial buildings, shopping centres and park and ride. Bearing in mind the continuation of the provision of the infrastructural services like sewer, water, energy and roads which will open up enormous development potential.

    So it's a bad thing that an auctioneer does their job identifies potential business opportunities? If they didn't see them and I was their boss I'd fire them for incompetence.

    But seriously instead of pontificating on here maybe you should do something about it like run for office to block rezoning of lands or campaign to have some of the land in any of the areas mentioned to parks or recreational use, with maybe some legislation.

    I won't tell you my suggestions on PT because if I ever get money I have a few ideas for setting my own business and I don't want to give the competition any ideas.


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  • Options
    #271
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Now I get it, you bought into the casino and are now living in a negative equity house that's a poor quality build and will probably fall down in 10-20 years and can't stand the fact that you can hear the neighbour boiling the kettle. The real problem here is that you're jealous of the people whom you think are rich in the country side and your trying to hide it behind all these reports.

    I'm not the one that suggested we base transport policy (in this case an argument against the bypass) on a report that has flawed data and analysis. I didn't attempt to distance myself from said report and attempted to cover it with other data. I'm not the one that refuses to acknowledge the fact that the findings may be flawed flawed by the data and may undermine the argument being made.

    Reading the document again it looks like he collected data specifically to support a proposal for a property tax in line with his ideology.

    Not much changed since the 50's imagine that. Wait no, farming is no longer viable for the population and due to the requirement for large numbers of employees companies are requiring us to travel to towns for work. How inconsiderate of them not to provide us with a property in the town and supply the bus to bring us to work.

    I notice you've studiously ignored the fact that there were only 5k more people living in rural Galway (as defined by the cso) in 2006 that there were in 1956.

    I've seen the area plan for the area in bold - it's at least 6 years old (it was before I had to leave Galway as an economic refugee), IIRC it was prepared by the county council, ala Ardaun. It's a fully laid out plan for what would effectively a new fully serviced village - the kind of thing you should be happy about because it shows forward planning. Given your general attitude I'm convinced you're against any kind of development in Galway whatsoever.

    By the way the selected route was published in 2001, so it likely that at some property developers have already been conned out of their money for at least some of that land at the height of the boom.

    So it's a bad thing that an auctioneer does their job identifies potential business opportunities? If they didn't see them and I was their boss I'd fire them for incompetence.

    But seriously instead of pontificating on here maybe you should do something about it like run for office to block rezoning of lands or campaign to have some of the land in any of the areas mentioned to parks or recreational use, with maybe some legislation.

    I won't tell you my suggestions on PT because if I ever get money I have a few ideas for setting my own business and I don't want to give the competition any ideas.



    1. LOL. :D Good one! Psychic reading, economic analysis, engineer's report and social critique -- all in one.

    2. I didn't make such a suggestion either. I unreservedly withdraw my remark that your nixation with James Fix was a brief one.

    3. Roll on the property tax. I'll have to pay it too by the way. Unless my house falls down first of course.

    4. More LOL. Are you suggesting that the 'dormers', mansions and haciendas dotting the landscape are in the vast majority of cases occupied by rural folk born in the same parish but who now need to drive to Galway City because farming no longer provides sufficient employment? I'm afraid I just don't believe that. In any case, Galway Co Co's own plan (whatever about its practices) regards such development as sporadic, uncoordinated and unsustainable. I don't see this happening elsewhere to the same extent. For example, in Northern Ireland, where the agricultural economy is not vastly different from ours, you do not see the same level of "one off" housing. Comparing the Donegal and Derry landscapes, for example, it is evident that "one off" houses are much more numerous on the RoI side.

    5. One good job that auctioneer did was to reveal some people's real ambitions for the GCOB. That is the point I have been making from the outset: the bypass is in theory meant to alleviate traffic, but there is a not insignificant risk that it may not be a permanent or even long term sustainable solution given the development pressures that could be unleashed within and around the city. Nothing outlandish about such prospects, IMO, given this country's record. The Celtic Casino meltdown has certainly put paid to a lot of such ambitions, but do you really think the gombeens are gone forever?

    6. The bankrupting of this country by said gombeens has made the GCOB, and any other proposed solutions to Galway's traffic problems, a major economic challenge. But even if the money for the bypass were made available tomorrow, the actual infrastructure is still years away. I'm not prepared to sit and wait, in my car or in my crumbling house (only 1-11 years left before it falls down! :eek:), for the GCOB to materialise. I'd prefer to put my energy into seeking practical solutions now and in the near future.


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