Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

24-03-2011 3:09pm

Ruddock would be more interested in Ulster than Munster imo..

As would many younger players

Risteard · 24-03-2011 3:14pm

profitius wrote: »

Ruddock was clever there. He's backed himself to get a better deal next season and he will too. I'd imagine Munster are keeping a close eye on the situation too.

We have a decent number of backrows, it's just none of them are physical freaks like Ruddock who developed fairly early and is well able to mix it up at this level. TOD looked decent and I'm disappointed Ronan jumped ahead of him straight away, likewise Butler will probably get some more gametime next year and Peter O'Mahoney seems ot be in McGahan's plans.

24-03-2011 3:20pm

Risteard wrote: »

We have a decent number of backrows, it's just none of them are physical freaks like Ruddock who developed fairly early and is well able to mix it up at this level. TOD looked decent and I'm disappointed Ronan jumped ahead of him straight away, likewise Butler will probably get some more gametime next year and Peter O'Mahoney seems ot be in McGahan's plans.

Butler >> Ruddock 2 years ago.

What's changed?

Player development at Leinster is a different world than at Munster it seems. Ruddock may have been captain, but Butler was the standout backrower of that 6N winning team.

Its for this reason that I think that Ruddock would have no interest in going to Munster, they seem to have stunted Butler's progression for one thing!

Sin a bhfuil · 24-03-2011 3:22pm

tolosenc wrote: »

Get your own academy!

TBH, I can see Rhys looking to go to Wales if Leinster doesn't work out.

lets see now .... Reddan, Ross, Cronin, Fogs, etc. etc.

Emmet

With Ferris at Ulster, would that be a good option for Ruddock?

Sin a bhfuil · 24-03-2011 3:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Butler >> Ruddock 2 years ago.

What's changed?

Player development at Leinster is a different world than at Munster it seems. Ruddock may have been captain, but Butler was the standout backrower of that 6N winning team.

Its for this reason that I think that Ruddock would have no interest in going to Munster, they seem to have stunted Butler's progression for one thing!

Is the main issue not just size, with Irish players generally a bit slower to develop. (Bear in mind that Ruddock came through the Wales Under age system).

GerM · 24-03-2011 3:47pm

Sin a bhfuil wrote: »

lets see now .... Reddan, Ross, Cronin, Fogs, etc. etc.

In fairness SAB, listing those players is like a Leinster fan saying Leinster was the making of Ian Keatley which is obviously untrue.

No doubt that we've struggled to produce players though in certain positions in the past, particularly the ones you've listed; prop, hooker and scrum half along with lock have often been an issue for Leinster in the past 10 years in terms of producing young players. Luckily that seems to be changing at prop currently. We're still very bare in terms of lock and scrum half though where Munster luckily enough continue to excel in production.

In closing, we'll trade you Ruddock for Murray and Dave Foley.

David900 · 24-03-2011 3:58pm

tolosenc wrote: »

Get your own academy!

TBH, I can see Rhys looking to go to Wales if Leinster doesn't work out.

At least Ireland have locked him in

.

Sin a bhfuil · 24-03-2011 4:00pm

GerM wrote: »

In fairness SAB, listing those players is like a Leinster fan saying Leinster was the making of Ian Keatley which is obviously untrue.

No doubt that we've struggled to produce players though in certain positions in the past, particularly the ones you've listed; prop, hooker and scrum half along with lock have often been an issue for Leinster in the past 10 years in terms of producing young players. Luckily that seems to be changing at prop currently. We're still very bare in terms of lock and scrum half though where Munster luckily enough continue to excel in production.

In closing, we'll trade you Ruddock for Murray and Dave Foley.

Tolensc said Munster should 'Get your own Academy" - well all of those came through the Munster Academy:p (though Ruddock didn't spend too much time in the Leinster academy)!

Foley maybe, no way Murray. Leinster should have a look at Duncan Williams though.

Amazotheamazing · 24-03-2011 4:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Butler >> Ruddock 2 years ago.

What's changed?

Butler has the skills but none of the strength. Simple as, really. Ruddock and Dom Ryan are very powerful guys.

Skillswise, Peter O'Mahony and Paddy Butler are up there with any young backrower in Ireland but they don't have the power, and it remains to be seen if they can develop it.

24-03-2011 4:58pm

Sin a bhfuil wrote: »

Emmet

With Ferris at Ulster, would that be a good option for Ruddock?

Devastatingly enough, it remains to be seen just how much we will see of Ferris.

Also, Ulster have completely embraced the "back row of 3" instead of a 6 a 7 and an 8. He'd fit in at 6 and 8 no problem, and could play 7 just as Ferris has this season too.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Butler has the skills but none of the strength. Simple as, really. Ruddock and Dom Ryan are very powerful guys.

Eat more, gym more. Its not rocket science. I'm talking about the difference in development over the last 2 years, when it can be agreed that the lads were on a far more even footing. What has been the difference? Is this not clear as day?

Stev_o · 24-03-2011 7:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Butler >> Ruddock 2 years ago.

What's changed?

Player development at Leinster is a different world than at Munster it seems. Ruddock may have been captain, but Butler was the standout backrower of that 6N winning team.

Its for this reason that I think that Ruddock would have no interest in going to Munster, they seem to have stunted Butler's progression for one thing!

Id be tempted to say that Ruddock's size is attributed from having a dad who was a top coach who obviously brought him up on the right path to get that size.

Butler while talented seems a bit arrogant (the whole contract fiasco) so i wouldn't be half surprised that his lack size could be contributed to his own ego.

CatFromHue · 24-03-2011 7:18pm

Stev_o wrote: »

Id be tempted to say that Ruddock's size is attributed from having a dad who was a top coach who obviously brought him up on the right path to get that size.

also his dad isnt exactly a shrimp either

profitius · 24-03-2011 7:23pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Butler has the skills but none of the strength. Simple as, really. Ruddock and Dom Ryan are very powerful guys.

Skillswise, Peter O'Mahony and Paddy Butler are up there with any young backrower in Ireland but they don't have the power, and it remains to be seen if they can develop it.

Matt Williams said it takes years to develop for top level rugby. Munsters players do take a long time to bulk up but also start doing gym work later.

POM still needs to bulk up a bit but he is powerful and has good stamina. I'd say POM will end up at 6 or 7 while Butler looks a typical 8.

Stev_o wrote: »

Id be tempted to say that Ruddock's size is attributed from having a dad who was a top coach who obviously brought him up on the right path to get that size.

Looking at the Irish U20's, they were smaller than most teams in terms of bulking up. The Welsh and English academies are different and they pick players younger and start them on weights years before Irish players start them.

steve_o wrote:

Butler while talented seems a bit arrogant (the whole contract fiasco) so i wouldn't be half surprised that his lack size could be contributed to his own ego.

He was right about the contract and I'd say, after his performances last season for the U20's, there was plenty of interest in him.

24-03-2011 7:28pm

Ok, ignore Ruddock because he actually has a serious frame to work with. Dominic Ryan and Paddy Butler are excellent comparisons.

Why has Dominic Ryan overtaken Butler and left him for dead in terms of growth and progress?
Can we attribute his success to the work that goes on at the Leinster Academy? (most definitely)
Can we in turn attribute Butler's lack of progress to the work that goes on at the Munster Academy? (If A=>B is true, then not A=>not B is also true - this is logic).

This is the point I'm trying to make here. There's a gulf in the difference between how players in one team are brought forward compared to players in another. In terms of conditioning, gametime and fundamentally success.

The point I was trying to make was that Ruddock, who's come through arguably the best Academy in the NH, would probably be more tempted up North at Ulster, where similar success and trust in youth has been shown, than he would be at Munster.

wonton · 24-03-2011 8:27pm

Okay I cant find the videos thread but this vid needs to be posted, heaslips parts are just brilliant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUQ2Wt1mSKg

pity we didnt get them playing together in the six nations, but we would have needed sob at 7 for ferris to come in and he plays so good at six him self.

Podge_irl · 24-03-2011 8:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

(If A=>B is true, then not A=>not B is also true - this is logic).

Woefully off-topic as I know nothing about Butler, but that's not true (at least not mathematically speaking).

24-03-2011 8:46pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Woefully off-topic as I know nothing about Butler, but that's not true (at least not mathematically speaking).

oops, correct, not B => not A.

edit: nope, was right the first time! If A implies B, then Not A implies Not B.

lologram · 24-03-2011 9:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

oops, correct, not B => not A.

edit: nope, was right the first time! If A implies B, then Not A implies Not B.

Nah it's actually A => B equivalent to not B => not A. You were right the 2nd of 3 attempts

By the by, I agree with what's being said about Leinster's academy being the difference in progression of U20's players. I think there's also a significantly different mindset between the two provinces regarding their youngsters. Leinster young players are rewarded with HC caps on merit, (Ryan and Ruddock, O'Malley).

Undeniably talented Munster youngsters spend significant portions of their careers in the shadow of older players, and know they won't get introduced at the big stage. At least not in any meaningful way.

durkadurka · 24-03-2011 9:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

oops, correct, not B => not A.

edit: nope, was right the first time! If A implies B, then Not A implies Not B.

I'm thinking of hitting the report button lads...

WeeBushy · 24-03-2011 9:33pm

lologram wrote: »

By the by, I agree with what's being said about Leinster's academy being the difference in progression of U20's players. I think there's also a significantly different mindset between the two provinces regarding their youngsters. Leinster young players are rewarded with HC caps on merit, (Ryan and Ruddock, O'Malley).

Undeniably talented Munster youngsters spend significant portions of their careers in the shadow of older players, and know they won't get introduced at the big stage. At least not in any meaningful way.

They do seem to have a culture where the younger players 'serve their apprenticeship' under the big names, while at Leinster its moved towards 'if you're good enough you're old enough'.

Podge_irl · 24-03-2011 9:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

oops, correct, not B => not A.

edit: nope, was right the first time! If A implies B, then Not A implies Not B.

A => B merely implies that A is a sufficient condition for B, it doesn't directly imply it being a necessary condition for it.

24-03-2011 9:39pm

ah gerroverit

Stev_o · 24-03-2011 9:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok, ignore Ruddock because he actually has a serious frame to work with. Dominic Ryan and Paddy Butler are excellent comparisons.

Why has Dominic Ryan overtaken Butler and left him for dead in terms of growth and progress?
Can we attribute his success to the work that goes on at the Leinster Academy? (most definitely)
Can we in turn attribute Butler's lack of progress to the work that goes on at the Munster Academy? (If A=>B is true, then not A=>not B is also true - this is logic).

This is the point I'm trying to make here. There's a gulf in the difference between how players in one team are brought forward compared to players in another. In terms of conditioning, gametime and fundamentally success.

The point I was trying to make was that Ruddock, who's come through arguably the best Academy in the NH, would probably be more tempted up North at Ulster, where similar success and trust in youth has been shown, than he would be at Munster.

Ryan was a gym freak apparently before he got into the Leinster setup so it's predictable that his size would inevitably get bigger in a professional setup. Say it must of been the same with Ferris.

durkadurka · 24-03-2011 9:45pm

Maybe we're just lucky with Ryan and ruddock in how they developed physically. Two cases aren't really statistical proof.

24-03-2011 9:47pm

"The harder I practise, the luckier I get" - Gary Player

Definitely rings true here imo.
The two lads were obviously dead set on getting to where they needed to be, and were given the right guidance, environment and nurturing to help them get there.

Hard to question other people's commitment, and has to be assumed that the "hunger" is in other players too, but the Academy setup has to take serious plaudits for them both.

durkadurka · 24-03-2011 9:54pm

Agreed, I'm just saying it's not proof of the academy over other academies.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 24-03-2011 10:36pm

tolosenc wrote: »

Get your own academy!

TBH, I can see Rhys looking to go to Wales if Leinster doesn't work out.

Ya because Ruddock is a product of the Leinster academy and youth setup...

But in fairness its clear to see that there is a serious gulf between how Leinster and Munster academy players are progressing. Hopefully the Munster lads will bulk up over the summer and lay down a marker during the WC.

thebaz · 25-03-2011 9:20am

any reason why leinster are slow to offer ryan a contract ? hes still in the academy, and has played as much as anyone - munster could sniff him out, or should

irishbucsfan · 25-03-2011 9:31am

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Ya because Ruddock is a product of the Leinster academy and youth setup...

How can you claim that he isn't? Because he played his pre-academy rugby in Wales? Ruddock joined the Leinster academy the same year that Dom Ryan did, if I'm not mistaken.

irishbucsfan · 25-03-2011 9:32am

thebaz wrote: »

any reason why leinster are slow to offer ryan a contract ? hes still in the academy, and has played as much as anyone - munster could sniff him out, or should

I can only imagine they're negotiating one currently. Surely he'll be fully contracted by the end of this season.

CouchSmart · 25-03-2011 10:37am

thebaz wrote: »

any reason why leinster are slow to offer ryan a contract ? hes still in the academy, and has played as much as anyone - munster could sniff him out, or should

He was put on a development contract in October.

Source: Match program at the Scarlets game.

totallegend · 26-03-2011 8:51am

Noooooooooo

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/parisbound-wright-on-farewell-lap-for-leinster-2595441.html

26-03-2011 8:55am

totallegend wrote: »

Noooooooooo

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/parisbound-wright-on-farewell-lap-for-leinster-2595441.html

*shrug* something had to give. I'd prefer it was a NIQ.

ongarite · 26-03-2011 9:01am

Balls to that!! Gonna miss the Cookie Monster..

thomond2006 · 26-03-2011 9:15am

He's too good a player to be sitting on a bench.

GerM · 26-03-2011 9:16am

Gutted. Knew it was always likely but to see it become reality is disappointing nonetheless. I think we've seen a little in his brief appearances what we've been missing this season. Good scrummaging combined with his all action play around the park. His carrying and clear outs are immense. He'll leave a massive hole in our squad even with Hagan on the way. No ill feeling. A 3 year deal from a T14 side will get him a very nice pension for returning to the Cook Islands. Leinster can't compete with that. This has screwed up my weekend.

On the flip side, it now seems that we'll have 3 NIQ spots to fill over the summer. Will be interesting to see how they're distributed. Lock is the obvious area for strengthening. I wouldn't be surprised if there were 2 signings there. One marquee and one squad player. I reckon we're alright in the front and back rows really. A 10/12 type player might be called upon. A direct replacement for Berne if he doesn't re-sign. During the WC we'll be quite short in that department.

irishbucsfan · 26-03-2011 9:38am

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

This is the worst day to be a Leinster fan since Rocky left.

Stan Wright is an absolute legend in my eyes. He came here and looked out of shape, and didn't look like he could hold up a sheet of paper, let alone a scrum. Then suddenly out of nowhere he just started putting in top class performances one after another. By the time we played Munster in that HCup we finally had the superior set of forwards for the first time that I can remember, and he was the shining light in the front row (Healy was young, Jackman wasn't spectacular). He played superbly that day as well. Then last season we saw him stick in great performances all season at either loosey or tighthead, and he was the reason CJ Van De Linde (a world cup winner) was surplus to requirements. He's great around the pitch. He's great in the scrum. He's just great. I'll never forget Stan the Man.

Jedwardian · 26-03-2011 9:42am

I'll echo what GerM says. I'm gutted Wright is leaving and hope he's paid a fortune by Stade Francais. After an awful start to his Leinster career, he quickly became a crowd favourite due to his all action style. It was always on the cards that he'd leave, as much because Ulster, Munster and Connacht will have non Irish starting tight heads as anything else. The PAG would have been reluctant for there to be any chance that Mike Ross wouldn't be the main tight head with Leinster.

Trying to be positive, Wright and Hines are well into their 30s and them leaving frees up two NIQ spots for Leinster to bring in talented overseas players.

guapos · 26-03-2011 10:44am

It would be great if we only filled one of the NIQs and that would be in the 2nd row where we are a bit light with only Cullen and Toner and possibly McLaughlin. The rest of the team apart from out half has quality back up and i'd expect one of the two lads to step up next season. The less NIQs the better for Irish rugby.

RMD · 26-03-2011 11:18am

Sad to see Wright go, the first player I remember who wasn't one of he big Leinster names at the time. First match I went to about 5 years ago I remember he started having a bit of laugh with some of the crowd while the physios dealt with a player, nice guy but also an incredibly solid player. At least we have another NIQ place available if we need it.

[Jackass] · 26-03-2011 11:35am

I'm lifting my veil from mourning just to say Stan will be badly, badly missed at Leinster, as a player and a character. He's a real fan favourite and the relationship he had with the club and the supporters was fantastic.

It's a terrible shame to see him go, but best of luck to him and I hope he helps Cheika win some silverware (as long as it's not Heineken Cup

) in France.

On the positive side, this is great news for Jamie Hagan, who was surely told of this before committing to Leinster, and it's also great news for Maguire, who is now potentially 3rd choice after Hagan. Some great propping talen at Leinster and it's good to see them moving up the pecking order and hopefully they can step up (assuming Shawe is let go as cover next season), and it's good to have an all Irish contingent in the tight head spot...who would have thunk it!

I was hoping Stan would stay on at Leinster as a scrummaging coach when he retired, and am surprised he's heading off, but such is life.

Cheerio Stan, thanks for the many memories and even more solid scrums.

I think that'll be only two NIQ players in the Leinster squad next season? (not including Irish Qualified To Be Strauss)

Really have freed up space for some major major signings post WC. Excited...

Now I'm off to dress in black and sit silently in the corner.

CouchSmart · 26-03-2011 12:13pm

totallegend wrote: »

Noooooooooo

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/parisbound-wright-on-farewell-lap-for-leinster-2595441.html

Any other sources for this? Not saying it's not true but that paper is awful and Farrelly is useless. He was reporting a few weeks ago that Ross was going to Munster, Botha to Leinster, Hagan to Munster. I'll believe it when I see it. It'll be a real shame losing Stan though, terrific player.

LeeroyJones · 26-03-2011 12:16pm

Big loss losing Stan Wright, somebody will have to do extremely well to dislodge him from my All-time NIQ Leinster Legend XV! Which by the way hasn't been completed but notable others include Ollie Le Roux, Rocky, Dr Phil and Isa!

26-03-2011 12:17pm

I love you Stan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9gKyRmic20

Its like a break up

profitius · 26-03-2011 12:54pm

[QUOTE='[Jackass]
I think that'll be only two NIQ players in the Leinster squad next season? (not including Irish Qualified To Be Strauss)

Really have freed up space for some major major signings post WC. Excited...
[/QUOTE]

Leinster don't need to sign many more players now especially NIQ players. A second row is probably all they need.

durkadurka · 26-03-2011 1:02pm

Defo on the second row. It's the biggest worry going forward. I'm not convinced about toner as a HEC player

wixfjord · 26-03-2011 1:21pm

This is how I felt when I heard the news:

However, thinking about it, they've given a 32 year old prop with knee troubles a three year contract, so fair play to Stan for taking it. I'm sure Leinster's offer wouldn't have been near the money or length of Stade's.

Gives Jamie Hagan a huge chance to move forward, and hopefully we will keep Shawe too.

Also frees up two good NIQ spots for us. A second row, and replacement for Berne probably.

Bekker/Whitelock would be my choice for Hines replacement, and was watching Championship rugby last week, and thought the former NDG and current Nottingham OH James Alridge would be a great signing for Bernes replacement. Low cost, great player, and getting on a bit so wont keep Madigan/McKinley out.

Having said all of that, I LOVE YOU STAN! Thanks for the memories big man.

I'll be joining Jackass in the corner of the room.

GerM · 26-03-2011 1:34pm

wixfjord wrote: »

Bekker/Whitelock would be my choice for Hines replacement, and was watching Championship rugby last week, and thought the former NDG and current Nottingham OH James Alridge would be a great signing for Bernes replacement. Low cost, great player, and getting on a bit so wont keep Madigan/McKinley out.

Alas both Bekker and Whitelock are signed up with their respective unions until the end of 2011/12. The longer it goes on, the more I think Nathan Sharpe should be approached. The ARU said they weren't offering him another international contract last week. He should be open to leaving.

wixfjord · 26-03-2011 1:41pm

GerM wrote: »

Alas both Bekker and Whitelock are signed up with their respective unions until the end of 2011/12. The longer it goes on, the more I think Nathan Sharpe should be approached. The ARU said they weren't offering him another international contract last week. He should be open to leaving.

Aha! It's perfect! A Wagga Wagga Nathan, replacing a Wagga Wagga Nathan! Tis perfect!
Would be a great signing, and a good few years left in him too.
Get Rocky to put in a word or two.

wixfjord · 26-03-2011 1:43pm

Aha, tis all falling into place
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/rugby/nathan-sharpe-fuming-at-aru-snub/story-e6frey4i-1226021384101

Do it Joe!

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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