M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

L1011 · 04-10-2010 9:38pm

sdonn wrote: »

Which is one area where the EU should feck off and butt out. We're not using their money to build it any more unless I'm mistaken?

There's en EIB loan involved in this, but its not actually EU funding.

dubhthach · 04-10-2010 10:35pm

sdonn wrote: »

Which is one area where the EU should feck off and butt out. We're not using their money to build it any more unless I'm mistaken?

Likewise when Irish companies tender for work in other EU countries they should be told to feck off as contract is reserved only for local companies? It cuts both ways ye know.

veryangryman · 05-10-2010 9:09am

dubhthach wrote: »

Likewise when Irish companies tender for work in other EU countries they should be told to feck off as contract is reserved only for local companies? It cuts both ways ye know.

Finally some sense!

BluntGuy · 06-10-2010 1:51am

...Quality access to and within the BMW Region via radial corridors, linking corridors and international access points attract and promotes investment to and within the Region and will ultimately be a major factor enabling it’s future development. Balanced regional development and a more sustainable convergence in socio-economic terms between the regions as outlined in the National Spatial Strategy 2002–2020 remain possible provided that strategic investments are made to address transport and other infrastructure deficits. This announcement demonstrates the Government’s continued commitment to these important objectives”.

Good grief, this crap is spouted for every single project "blah blah... corridors... blah blah... investment... blah blah... investment corridors... blah blah... socio-economic... blah blah National Spatial Strategy... blah blah... commitment... etc." This article demonstrates just how the NSS has become a joke, and how it is now used to justify every single project without any kind of critical thinking.

While I do think the M17/M18 scheme should indeed go ahead, I'm getting tired of this recycled garbage getting any amount of broadcasting. It would be nice if for once, someone could talk about the specific benefits of a project, how it will contribute to the local and national economy, how it will benefit people's lives instead of flapping on with vague notions of "counter-balances" and "gateways".

Tech3 · 06-10-2010 11:47am

According to the indo article today a toll may be put in place on this scheme when its completed. The only viable area is south of rathmorrissey IMO. Can see this being easily dodged for Galway-Limerick traffic. Limerick-North of Tuam will use it although this is a small percentage until the route is realized and more heavily used years after it opens.

murphaph · 06-10-2010 2:54pm

tech2 wrote: »

According to the indo article today a toll may be put in place on this scheme when its completed. The only viable area is south of rathmorrissey IMO. Can see this being easily dodged for Galway-Limerick traffic. Limerick-North of Tuam will use it although this is a small percentage until the route is realized and more heavily used years after it opens.

Which highlights once again the fallacy of tolling our interurbans in this way. The only things that should be tolled are perhaps very large bridges or tunnels that are not easy to dodge. We have very few such examples IMO. Tolling is totally inefficient as a means of revenue raising. The admin costs behind it are huge. It should really be consigned to the dustbin, not expanded. Tax fuel instead....but that's too easy and simple.

veryangryman · 06-10-2010 3:12pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

Good grief, this crap is spouted for every single project "blah blah... corridors... blah blah... investment... blah blah... investment corridors... blah blah... socio-economic... blah blah National Spatial Strategy... blah blah... commitment... etc." This article demonstrates just how the NSS has become a joke, and how it is now used to justify every single project without any kind of critical thinking.

While I do think the M17/M18 scheme should indeed go ahead, I'm getting tired of this recycled garbage getting any amount of broadcasting. It would be nice if for once, someone could talk about the specific benefits of a project, how it will contribute to the local and national economy, how it will benefit people's lives instead of flapping on with vague notions of "counter-balances" and "gateways".

+1

As for gateways... An example - some flute thought that marketing Ballinasloe as "gateway to the west" was a good idea.

"Nothing to see here folks, just motor on towards Galway".

Not saying its not true - just they should have more local pride in their town(s). Even the major hotel is called "gateway" :rolleyes:

Chris_5339762 · 06-10-2010 6:19pm

If it gets tolled south of Rathmorrisey everyone will just use the old road to Kiltiernan and get on there.

Sponge Bob · 07-10-2010 9:37am

http://www.galwaynews.ie/15407-motorway-double-consortium-gets-jitters

Motorway in doubt as consortium gets the jitters

October 7, 2010 - 7:00am by Declan Tierney

The consortium chosen to develop the proposed Gort to Tuam motorway is understood to have had second thoughts about funding the project because of Ireland’s economic downturn.

Sources suggest that the financial backers behind BAM Balfour Beatty – confirmed by the National Roads Authority last month as the preferred bidder to construct the €500m M17/M18 motorway – are getting “jittery” about investing in such a major project in a country that is plunging deeper into debt.

It is understood that the investors in the public private partnership (PPP) scheme are becoming apprehensive about investing in such a major project in this country in view of the current economic situation and the instability of the Government.

And to further compound the problem, the Connacht Tribune has learned that the NRA will not commit to funding for the project because the contractors for the project do not have their funding in place as yet.

If it goes down then so does Newlands Cross as BAM is also scrabbling around for cash for that contract

Amtmann · 07-10-2010 9:42am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

http://www.galwaynews.ie/15407-motorway-double-consortium-gets-jitters

Motorway in doubt as consortium gets the jitters

October 7, 2010 - 7:00am by Declan Tierney

If it goes down then so does Newlands Cross as BAM is also scrabbling around for cash for that contract

Could the NRA revert to the second best tender option instead of Bam (which was DirectRoute I think)?

Road-Hog · 07-10-2010 9:53am

Furet wrote: »

Could the NRA revert to the second best tender option instead of Bam (which was DirectRoute I think)?

I'm sure they could but I think Directroute have AIB as part of their financing?

Sponge Bob · 07-10-2010 10:11am

I think they could 'revert' to Directroute, yes.

BAM ( if they have finance issues) are equally likely to pull out of the Newlands/Arklow bidding essentially 'giving' it to Mcquarie ( Finance) FCC/Elliot/Wills build.

On the other hand they may not have any real financing issues at all and may simply be looking to get a better price for Newlands/Arklow

As these 2 roads projects are top of the PPP list nationally a very unfortunate precedent would be set were BAM to pull out of both.

It would likely mean a disorderly collapse to the entire PPP process affecting schools , third level institutions, the proposed cancer care centres of excellence Metro North and other planned procurements and with nasty negative feedback effects elsewhere.

Now is not the time to 'lose' a PPP procurement process or three....although better right now than in January i suppose

Amtmann · 07-10-2010 11:23am

I thought there was something strange about the way the contract award was announced. The delay between the award announcement and work starting on the ground didn't sit well with me in light of precedents set over the past few years, when work commenced most swiftly.

I'd be perfectly happy to see BAM withdraw from the contract if Direct Route could be brought in to deliver the project without too much delay. Roadbridge would be delighted too I'm sure.

IF this does fall through, however, I suppose it bodes ill for the M20, the Arklow-Rathnew Scheme, the New Ross the Enniscorthy Bypasses, and the Galway Outer Bypass. However, just because BAM Balfour Beaty are "jittery", it doesn't necessarily mean that others will be. Correct or incorrect?

KevR · 07-10-2010 12:32pm

Where were all these jitters immediately before the contract was awarded? The project could have been given to the other consortium if they voiced their jitters earlier.

Hopefully the contract can be easily/quickly given to the second choice if the current crowd pull out.

glineli · 07-10-2010 12:34pm

KevR wrote: »

Where were all these jitters immediately before the contract was awarded? The project could have been given to the other consortium if they voiced their jitters earlier.

Hopefully the contract can be easily/quickly given to the second choice if the current crowd pull out.

Thats exactly what i was thinking. There are no quotes in that report so is it some journalist just putting 2+2 together and getting 5?

Irish and Proud · 07-10-2010 1:10pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

http://www.galwaynews.ie/15407-motorway-double-consortium-gets-jitters

Motorway in doubt as consortium gets the jitters

October 7, 2010 - 7:00am by Declan Tierney

If it goes down then so does Newlands Cross as BAM is also scrabbling around for cash for that contract

Very annoying - but it doesn't surprise me to say the least. The consortium (if the story is true) obviously thinks that this country may default. Remember, the people are very angry at having to shoulder the burden caused by reckless behaviour on the part of people who were highly paid to do otherwise. Add to that, December's budget - will the people take any more??? All financial experts (national and international) are insisting that the people here have to suffer without any talk of accountability on the part of those that have severely damaged this country. This arrogance makes my blood boil - I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets that feeling.

I know this is off topic, but on the subject of investment, if I had any savings, I would now think twice about investing within this country's financial system - even the post office or credit union. With the massive injustice in this country, the fuse could be about to blow - in short, the people are being hit on all fronts (including services like hospitals, schools etc - regarding roads, will we have to contend with a network of potholes (I mean 1990's style) again). Seriously, how much more can the people take???

Until justice is done, this country won't improve and investors will always be nervous - multinationals are a different story - they can pack up and go any time as operating costs are their only real concern, so they have much less to worry about when they invest here.

We need politicians that can show leadership before anyone will put their money here - you won't get that with FF, FG, Lab, Greens etc - we need a new party that is funded by the people and answerable to the people!

BluntGuy · 07-10-2010 2:31pm

While I reckon this project may just about be able to pull itself from the mire, this doesn't at all bode well for the other PPP projects. The government's drip-feeding of information may have fooled some people, but the investors are seeing the light, and unfortunately what's being illuminated is the absolute mess that has been made and continues to be made of our finances while that talentless Lenihan and his cohort of crooks are in charge.

Tech3 · 07-10-2010 2:50pm

Road-Hog wrote: »

I'm sure they could but I think Directroute have AIB as part of their financing?

Surprised your are saying this now when you sarcasticaly replied the following below to me not so long ago when I queried about the funding of this project.

Road-Hog wrote:

Do you really think that companies/consortia would bother spending the significant amount of money that is needed to partake in the tendering process if they weren't somehow sure of securing the finance should they be lucky/unlucky enough to actually win the job? They hardly are partaking for the fun of it i.e. stringing the NRA along pretending to be interested only to withdraw once awarded the contract

I do believe this scheme will be built though with a slight delay if the worst was to happen. The EIB has given some funds towards the project and roadbridge would jump on the chance of getting this built from what I've heard. It's normal to consider the contract before signing it and it's too early to say whether Balfour Beatty will withdraw with the process.

Sponge Bob · 07-10-2010 3:31pm

In the full Trib atricle a "Senior NRA" source is quoted as saying contract signing was due Oct 29 but will be delayed by 2 weeks at least....which is probably shorthand for after the December budget and the market reaction to it. No mention of Roadbridge at all, sadly.

Amtmann · 07-10-2010 3:42pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

In the full Trib atricle a "Senior NRA" source is quoted as saying contract signing was due Oct 29 but will be delayed by 2 weeks at least....which is probably shorthand for after the December budget and the market reaction to it. No mention of Roadbridge at all, sadly.

Did the Connacht Tribune think to ask about the other NRA PPP schemes (or do its interests not extend that far)?

Fianna Fowl · 07-10-2010 5:36pm

First post on boards but I've been a lurker for awhile and thanks for all the updates on all the roads projects across the country, it's great to have lived through the transformation of irelands transportation system.

I have worked on UK ppp/pfi projects but not on anything in this country. The scenario mapped out above is extremely worrying for all Irish projects requiring project finance. I will caveat my remarks by saying it's based on my UK experience but consortiums who bid for these projects act mainly as an intermediatory between the authority and the consortiums club of banks. The consortiums development team attend all the dialogue meetings. The closest you let the authority to the bankers and their doomsday scenarios is a couple of slides on the projector that outlines who the club are.

Banks for these large capital projects seek to mitigate all risk, however no one can stand over the country going bust. Politicans questioning the requirements to pay current liabilities to concession companies is being heard loud and clear in London.

Interesting times!

Sponge Bob · 07-10-2010 6:14pm

Fianna Fowl wrote: »

I have worked on UK ppp/pfi projects but not on anything in this country. The scenario mapped out above is extremely worrying for all Irish projects requiring project finance. I will caveat my remarks by saying it's based on my UK experience but consortiums who bid for these projects act mainly as an intermediatory between the authority and the consortiums club of banks. The consortiums development team attend all the dialogue meetings. The closest you let the authority to the bankers and their doomsday scenarios is a couple of slides on the projector that outlines who the club are.

LOLs at keeping the wunch well out of sight. Nobody wants to meet a pack of city bankers making chimpanzee noises.

Banks for these large capital projects seek to mitigate all risk, however no one can stand over the country going bust. Politicans questioning the requirements to pay current liabilities to concession companies is being heard loud and clear in London.

They simply cannot lay off the risk if a sovereign is undergoing periodic ratings downgrades. Banks were only interested in PPP's at sovereign lending rates + a spread to cover the risk until they securitised the package ( and risk) off their balance sheets with a last fat fee for themselves.

Thereafter they are only a conduit from a consortium to a bondholder.

If one long term PPP is unfinanceable them they are all unfinanceable. We are as well to swallow hard and top up the borrowing from the EIB with the NTMA cashpile on this one if we want to keep any interest alive in PPPs .....and that is us assuming we believe we will stabilise the bond situation sometime in future and that PPPs are doable thereafter.

Meanwhile haul in the last 2 bidders and ask them for a final offer cash price with no finance partner.

Fianna Fowl · 07-10-2010 7:13pm

Those bidding for ppp projects are normally directed to ignore eib funding, generally the line is assume we won't have it. Normally the banks take around £50m each with the lead taking more. Eib funding will just knock a bank or 2 out of the club. Banks want enough to make it worth their time.

Keeping the banks happy in these deals is a tiresome job, what happens if the place burns down, what happens if you or whoever goes bust but I can only imagine bams eyes rolling in their head when they were asked by nord lb or whoever as to what happens if the country starts reneging on debt and where they would sit in that scenario.

Normally at detailed design stage, last 3 or 4, a full financial model is required including capex, opex, lifecycle costs, financing details is included in each bid. Weighting of bidders tends to strongly favour price from this point on.

Sponge Bob · 07-10-2010 7:16pm

Fianna Fowl wrote: »

Those bidding for ppp projects are normally directed to ignore eib funding, generally the line is assume we won't have it.

To save you wading back the EIB has preapproved funding for this project since the spring , up to €170m.

http://www.eib.org/projects/pipeline/2009/20090576.htm

I assume it was intended for land purchase etc. The build cost ( based on Gort-Crusheen) will be no more around €4m a km, a netch over €200m. The value of land has plummeted in recent times and the CPOs could easily come in at €100m the lot. There is a maintenance element involved on this and other non DBO schemes in the area too. Some of the land was already bought and fenced before the scheme was abandoned as a build only in 2008.

dowlingm · 08-10-2010 7:49pm

It could be that the funding models for the consortium were predicated on the creditworthiness of Ireland Inc. and if the credit rating agencies stepped down their ratings then the funding would not be forthcoming.

On that note, Ireland was just downgraded to A+ from AA-, outlook Negative, by Fitch.

Sponge Bob · 08-10-2010 8:00pm

Fred Barry himself had this to say on general risks not this scheme in the Dáil in June

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20100630.xml&Page=2&Ex=308#N308

The risks are that the PPP companies must deal with funding banks and it was difficult to get funding for PPP schemes a year ago. This is a Europe-wide issue and may even be worldwide but is certainly not only an Irish issue. The market has freed up in recent months but if it were to tighten up, the tender companies and banks who support these tenders without full commitment could decide not to fund the project. If that happened, the tenderers would have a problem and we would have a problem. The State would have a problem because many schemes are set up as PPP schemes around the State.

Road-Hog · 10-10-2010 9:40pm

tech2 wrote: »

Surprised your are saying this now when you sarcasticaly replied the following below to me not so long ago when I queried about the funding of this project.

I do believe this scheme will be built though with a slight delay if the worst was to happen. The EIB has given some funds towards the project and roadbridge would jump on the chance of getting this built from what I've heard. It's normal to consider the contract before signing it and it's too early to say whether Balfour Beatty will withdraw with the process.

I probably didn't realise the absolute mess that AIB was in at the time.......and most likely roadbridge etc didn't either when they selected them as part of their financing which was probaly prior to the september 2008 melt down....!

LFC Murphy · 18-10-2010 11:10am

Any more news on this?

The story seems to have died.....

lukejr · 27-10-2010 10:46am

From the Irish Times today in the article confirming the opening of the M18 section to Gort:

The National Roads Authority has denied there was any delay in the next phase of the route from Gort to Tuam, stating that work on the public-private partnership scheme would commence in the new year. The roads authority said in a statement yesterday: “Work on the Gort to Tuam route will commence in the new year, despite rumours to the contrary.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1027/1224282071976.html

westtip · 08-11-2010 11:30am

Another tragic reminder last night as to why this road must be done.

M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

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