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Is Sinn Fein losing their grip?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Biggins wrote: »
    Really? Talk about head in the sand or just not wishing to see it!


    I suggest you get that head out of the sand and in fact look up alone a copy of the Sutton report!

    That refers to past events during the armed campaign and not what you referred to earlier.

    You earlier referred to
    "some very still illegal activities amid the still ongoing news reports of these activities are still being broadcast across the nation weekly to say the least."
    and earlier again
    As long as they are say on one hand that "we are upholding the lands of the land now" and on the other at local level, allowing scumbags possibly known to them to carry on with their very evil antics of murder, drug related crime and petrol rackets to name just three

    Once again, those has been linked to dissidents. If you know otherwise, to the Gardai/PSNI with you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Jaap wrote: »
    Everybody knows what organisation murdered Paul Quinn and Robert McCartney...I think you are wrong Nodin my friend...or just like Gerry Adams can be at times...you are in denial!!!
    ...

    It was agreed and is believed by the various bodies, unionists and two national governments not to be an IRA killing. That they failed to convince you is not really of import.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...Once again, those has been linked to dissidents. If you know otherwise, to the Gardai/PSNI with you.
    Who says I haven't already!
    Jaap wrote: »
    Everybody knows what organisation murdered Paul Quinn and Robert McCartney...I think you are wrong Nodin my friend...or just like Gerry Adams can be at times...you are in denial!!!
    I remember at the time of Robert's death there was a rumour that the IRA volunteered to execute the IRA killers of Mr McCartney...but the family didn't want that...
    +1

    Then again Nodin, you obviously didn't see last night repeat of RTE's "Crime Capital" programme - or didn't want to!

    It clear you haven't actually bothered to read the linked site and the MANY detail items on it - for fear of actually seeing something you in denial of?

    For example EVEN LAST MONTH!
    The IRA, along with members of Sinn Fein, were behind what the European police agency Europol said was one of the biggest and most sophisticated counterfeiting operations ever uncovered in Europe.

    Europol said that when gardai raided an underground bunker in Co Laois last Tuesday, enough ink and specialist paper was found to produce €200m (£166m) worth of €50 and €100 notes.

    The operation may have already netted tens of millions for the IRA and Sinn Fein operators. The notes have been spreading across Europe in the past year or so, and are of very high quality.
    Source: http://saoirse32.blogsome.com/2010/06/14/ira-linked-to-counterfeit-cash-bunker/
    And: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/ira-linked-to-counterfeit-cash-bunker-14841514.html

    There is little more to be said!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Biggins wrote: »
    Who says I haven't already!


    +(.......) MONTH!

    Funny enough, other news outlets said nothing of the sort. Given the age of the individuals involved, it's more than likely former activists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭Notorious97


    I think people will always have a problem with the PIRA, even though they are a disbanded army, people love to drag them back into anything they think a republican can be blamed on. The PIRA is no more according to the international body who recently completed their work with groups in the 6 counties. Former members and what they get up to cannot be blamed on the PIRA acting officially, as like it has been said in previous posts, they are now gone. People would do well to look into the fact it is dissident groups blamed by the police, governments and the assembly for inciting this hated and violence.

    Back to the topic however, I think SF could be doing more to ensure these kids dont get caught up in dissident groups. I think they are obviously easily influenced and not shy about fighting, which hardliners opposed to peace can easily take advantage of. There is no excuse for this violence, but there is also no excuse for the marches through areas they know will cause trouble. they should stick to their own areas to celebrate their 'victory' 320 years ago.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Nodin wrote: »
    Funny enough, other news outlets said nothing of the sort. Given the age of the individuals involved, it's more than likely former activists.

    Well the European agency didn't state EX-members and I'm quite sure they alone know their stuff and who's responsible - unless you know different?

    But so yet again quote another source - this time, The Times:

    IRA plc turns from terror into biggest crime gang in Europe

    The Republicans’ crooked business empire rakes in huge amounts
    AN ANALYSIS of the IRA’s involvement in criminal activities shows a huge range of operations, from smuggling to money laundering and from robbery to mortgage applications.

    ALCOHOL

    The IRA is believed to have perfected the recipe for Smirnoff Red Label vodka, among other spirits, and has a well-developed distribution network for its counterfeit products in pubs and clubs which it controls, particularly in Belfast.
    Raids on illegal distilleries, mainly in border areas, have uncovered bottling and capping machinery and high- quality copies of brand labels. Many of the products are designed for use in pub optics.

    Police found the seven-stage filtration machinery for deionising water not long after Diageo, the drinks company, had introduced the process at its plants. “They use industrial espionage to copy machinery, recipes and labels and are prepared to be very patient to get things absolutely right,” said a police source.

    The IRA takes the production of counterfeit spirits so seriously that it even has a quality control unit. Diageo and other companies have countered with a security division which works with police and Customs on both sides of the Irish border. Last December Irish Customs seized 1,500 litres of pure alcohol on the Cooley peninsula, Co Louth, as well as printing presses and labels for a variety of vodka brands.

    A Diageo spokesman said: “We are very concerned about this illegal trade. It impacts on our consumers, on government revenues and on us as the brand owners.”

    ROBBERY
    The IRA’s “elite robbery team” is a dedicated unit allegedly run by Bobby Storey, its director of intelligence who is revered by republicans for his anti-surveillance expertise.

    The group’s income through robberies varies from year to year. According to Special Branch, Storey played a central role in the theft of £26.5 million from the Northern Bank just before Christmas and organised three other robberies which netted a further £3 million last year.

    In each case the IRA used a tactic known as “tiger kidnapping”, where the family of an employee is held hostage to ensure his or her co-operation. Since April last year there have been eleven “tiger kidnappings”, at least four of which have been blamed on the IRA.

    In one such raid at the Makro cash-and-carry store outside Belfast last May, four staff were held at gunpoint, tied up and gagged. Cigarettes, alcohol and electrical items worth more than £1 million were stolen. In October the IRA stole cigarettes worth £2 million from a warehouse in Ardoyne, North Belfast, owned by Gallaher’s tobacco company. Over the past two years it has stolen cigarettes worth nearly £4 million from lorries passing through South Armagh. The IRA has also been able to import cigarette cargos through Dublin port.

    In the Irish Republic smaller-scale robberies of security vans and post offices have been used to train new recruits.

    CROSS-BORDER SMUGGLING
    Smuggling is a way of life in South Armagh, the heartland of militant republicanism. According to Customs, about half of Northern Ireland’s filling stations sell fuel smuggled from the Irish Republic, where duty is considerably lower, at a cost to the Treasury of about £200 million a year.
    Fuel smuggling, much of it organised by the notorious South Armagh “brigade”, is now arguably the IRA’s single largest source of income. “What the IRA love is excise and revenue frauds, and the fuel smuggling is on an industrial scale,” said a security source. “Diesel in the Republic is about 66 or 67p per litre, so straight away you can make a profit of about 15p per litre.

    “They get even more with agricultural diesel, which they buy at around 15-20p per litre, then use chemical processes to wash the dye and the markers out of it. It is then sold as ordinary car fuel for 70 to 80p per litre.”
    According to the Organised Crime Task Force, the IRA’s fuel-laundering plants — often concealed in barns along the border — produce up to five million litres of illegal fuel each year, making an annual profit of at least £3 million.

    About a third of all cigarettes in Northern Ireland are also smuggled, much of this proportion by the IRA, according to Customs. The cigarettes are typically brought in by the container-load from zero or low-tax countries such as Thailand, China and Turkey. A 40ft container can hold ten million cigarettes worth £1.5 million.

    The IRA is still heavily involved in smuggling sheep and livestock across the border so that farmers can take advantage of VAT differences in the Republic, which allows them to claim a rebate for lambs.

    In recent months the IRA has embarked on a new activity: the illegal dumping of household waste from the Republic, where residents now have to pay “bin taxes”. Police have identified at least five illegal dumping sites in Northern Ireland, with waste ranging from 5,000 to 25,000 tonnes with a value of up to £5,000 per 20-tonne lorryload.

    IP CRIME
    “Wherever there is a penny to be made, these boys will be turning their hands to it,” said one security official.
    Seizures of pirate DVDs, CDs and computer games and software are at record levels but the quantity of goods recovered is believed to be dwarfed by how much escapes detection.

    The paramilitaries have long been involved in this trade and the IRA’s links with America gave it access to new releases. Today much of the illegal product in the province is burnt on to DVDs locally after master copies are imported or downloaded.

    Last weekend counterfeit goods worth £200,000, including DVDs, videos, CDs, fireworks and electrical items, were seized in Jonesborough in the heart of South Armagh.
    The IRA’s counterfeiting operations extend to fake football strips, designer clothes, power tools and, in a recent discovery, a well-known brand of washing powder.

    In the past it has been involved in the smuggling and sale of fake-branded disposable razors, toothpaste and other toiletries sold door to door. In one notorious example, a fake perfume seized at a market in Northern Ireland contained urine as a stabiliser.

    CONSULTANCY
    Special Branch believed that the IRA received up to $6 million (£3.1 million) for helping to train Marxist rebels in Colombia, where three alleged IRA members are wanted after vanishing on bail last December.
    The payment was allegedly negotiated by a former IRA “chief of staff” who has worldwide contacts — including in Libya, where republicans are believed to have deposited some of the proceeds from their vast criminal empire.
    Other senior republicans have also travelled to cultivate links with the PLO in the Middle East and Eta in Spain. In the past IRA men trained alongside ANC guerrillas in South Africa.

    Police say that other payments have almost certainly been received from overseas for the IRA’s terrorist expertise in intelligence gathering to bomb-making.
    According to Special Branch, the IRA is also heavily involved in providing security services for pubs, clubs and other venues in Belfast. The group does not officially deal in drugs but it is believed to have “licensed” the trade of illegal drugs by the dissident groups and independent dealers in Dublin.

    MONEY LAUNDERING AND FINANCIAL CRIME
    The IRA’s finance unit is said to have contributed to Belfast’s property boom by investing in property.

    Detectives investigating a suspected IRA money-laundering network in the Republic believe that it controls a huge business portfolio including pubs, restaurants, night clubs, office blocks, taxi firms, filling stations and nursing homes. Often the IRA invests as a silent partner in legitimate businesses.
    The authorities also believe that the terrorist group has been looking at property opportunities overseas, particularly in fast-growing markets outside the European Union such as Bulgaria, Turkey and Libya.
    “You just can’t quantify it,” said one official. “The money is put through so many channels that it’s impossible to know. Nobody knows how much property they have, but it’s a lot.”

    Other financial crimes include insurance and compensation frauds, VAT frauds, and the diversion of government and EU grants.
    In West Belfast, the IRA even helps ordinary Roman Catholics to forge mortgage applications, offering bogus references and salary statements in return for a share of the loan.

    Source: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article1932704.ece

    So as can be seen from even last month and loads of examples previous, its time to see the big picture!
    Not the Sinn Fein PR spin!

    They have just got more better and professional at it and have extended across Europe too!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Winty wrote: »
    I remember a time when the local Sinn Fein member had a Puppeteer control over the local population and if instructed to either start or stop a riot the crowd would follow orders.

    Says it all really, now that SF cant just order the youths to 'start' or a 'stop' a riot, like they did in the good old old days :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Jaap wrote: »
    ...... to pretend to be offended by a small parade with no music that takes 5 minutes to pass and allows marchers to get home from town!!!

    If the reason they are marching there is just "to get home from town" than why cant they just walk/bus etc home without the parade? Why is it so important for them to march past those houses and those shops.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    T runner wrote: »
    If the reason they are marching there is just "to get home from town" than why cant they just walk/bus etc home without the parade? Why is it so important for them to march past those houses and those shops.

    I can just picture 50 blokes in bowler hats, sashes and banners on a number 47A :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭Mylesie


    T runner wrote: »
    If the reason they are marching there is just "to get home from town" than why cant they just walk/bus etc home without the parade? Why is it so important for them to march past those houses and those shops.

    Originally Posted by Jaap viewpost.gif
    ...... to pretend to be offended by a small parade with no music that takes 5 minutes to pass and allows marchers to get home from town!!!

    Yer rite Jaap - and they won't even join in when we chant "Five all, five all" passing the bookies!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Biggins wrote: »
    Well (.....)
    They have just got more better and professional at it and have extended across Europe too!

    A five year old article. And yet the DUP are happy to be there with them. I'd suggest copping on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Biggins, I think you are off the mark here, the PIRA are gone. International watchdogs and agencies acknowledge this. They are defunct.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Biggins, I think you are off the mark here, the PIRA are gone. International watchdogs and agencies acknowledge this. They are defunct.
    Not gone, just disbanded into other activities.
    Lets not be fooling ourselves. They are still there, still known to many within the Sinn Fein org and as many policing agencies, Irish, British and European, are at pains to state, are still intermixed with illegal activity.

    Sorry if you don't see that or as some don't want to but SF can't have their cake and eat it while saying one thing and at the very least allowing others to do different without even a condemnation!

    Who am I talking about?

    Try looking up Peter John Carahar - Brendan McFarlane - Kevin Crilly - Sean Hughes - Kieran McBride - Bernard McGinn - Seak Kelly - James Monaghan - Thomas (stab) Murphy - Seamus McArdle - Colm Murphy - Bernard Fox...
    ...to name just a few!

    The activities still continue and as last months Garda raid proved, they are still deeply involved with each other. To reiterate LAST MONTH:
    The IRA, along with members of Sinn Fein, were behind what the European police agency Europol said was one of the biggest and most sophisticated counterfeiting operations ever uncovered in Europe

    Who is fooling oneself again!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Biggins wrote: »
    Not gone, just disbanded into other activities.
    Lets not be fooling ourselves. They are still there, still known to many within the Sinn Fein org and as many policing agencies, Irish, British and European, are at pains to state, are still intermixed with illegal activity.

    Sorry if you don't see that or as some don't want to but SF can't have their cake and eat it while saying one thing and at the very least allowing others to do different without even a condemnation!
    I think you are fooling yourself Biggins. It is simply not on to bring the PIRA into this debate when they are GONE.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭Notorious97


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I think you are fooling yourself Biggins. It is simply not on to bring the PIRA into this debate when they are GONE.


    They all do sadly though, the IRA card is always dragged out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I think you are fooling yourself Biggins. It is simply not on to bring the PIRA into this debate when they are GONE.

    For someone to say that the Provos are gone is ludicrous, its beyond belief really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭Notorious97


    For someone to say that the Provos are gone is ludicrous, its beyond belief really.


    They are gone, two governments have accepted this, all parties within NI have accepted this, the international body for decommissioning Have accepted this, former members can be involved in god knows what these days, but to say the PIRA is still operating is just wrong


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    For someone to say that the Provos are gone is ludicrous, its beyond belief really.
    Yea, absolutely but its nice for some to live in the land of denial and try to place others there too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    So Biggins, numerous governments, international bodies, the decommissioning body all accept that the PIRA have decommissioned and are essentially devoted to a peaceful path, yet you maintain that they are now a mafia style criminal organisation?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    So Biggins, numerous governments, international bodies, the decommissioning body all accept that the PIRA have decommissioned and are essentially devoted to a peaceful path, yet you maintain that they are now a mafia style criminal organisation?

    Yes - the official policy of killing British police and army has ended but their financial gathering activities in its many guises still continues - or would you care to explain away the counterfeit case alone just last month or would one care to carefully avoid it, and avoid the many reports, the names the long list of activities still ongoing and acknowledged by policing agencies all over Europe and at home?

    Keep spinning, someone might fall for it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Biggins wrote: »
    Try looking up Peter John Carahar

    An old man in his seventies.
    - Brendan McFarlane

    A musician.
    Sean Hughes

    Now a public figure involved in the Sinn Féin party.
    James Monaghan

    Another old man pushing seventy.
    Bernard Fox

    He left the Provisonal Republican Movement a couple of years ago.

    You haven't a bloody clue lad, and the fact that many members of Sinn Féin may have IRA records in no way correlates with the IRA being some sort of super-Mafia plotting in the background to make a comeback. It exists as an organisation, barely. But as a viable armed organisation it is largely defunct.

    You quoted an article earlier on that stated "no political party would be expected to share power..." etc etc etc. The fact is there are politicians and organisations the world over with roots in a similar background and even today the likes of the DUP have no problem in sharing power with them.

    The fact is that Sinn Féin is simply a mediocre, centre-left, run of the mill party nowadays, and your hysteria doesn't really change that at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Biggins wrote: »
    Yes - the official policy of killing British police and army has ended but their financial gathering activities in its many guises still continues - or would you care to explain away the counterfeit case alone just last month or would one care to carefully avoid it, and avoid the many reports, the names the long list of activities still ongoing and acknowledged by policing agencies all over Europe and at home?

    Keep spinning, someone might fall for it.
    And would you argue that this activity has increased since the GFA? What are the reasons behind this supposed activity do you think?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    And would you argue that this activity has increased since the GFA? What are the reasons behind this supposed activity do you think?
    Why does anyone wish to gain more and more money? Simple question asked with a simple obvious answer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Biggins wrote: »
    Why does anyone wish to gain more and more money? Simple question asked with a simple obvious answer.
    Not really, the PIRA have never been motivated by money.

    Perhaps you believe they are collecting money to buy arms?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    FTA69 wrote: »
    The fact is that Sinn Féin is simply a mediocre, centre-left, run of the mill party nowadays, and your hysteria doesn't really change that at all.
    Tell that to those that are still being threatened into silence upon the deaths of their loved ones!
    Look up on RTE's site last night "Crime Capital" programme for very simple example.
    I agree with you that SF is a mediocre party and to get back to the main theme, will remain so till they stop ALL activities and associations with criminals, which many has pointed out over the years and still to to this day, is still ongoing.
    When that ceases and they start to release the information that policing in the north and south further requires, they stand a better chance of gaining some better credibility.

    Lord knows we need a change of something down here!
    Perhaps you believe they are collecting money to buy arms?
    Never stated that. Please show me where I have....And NO, I don't think they are buying arms for the record.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    They are gone, two governments have accepted this, all parties within NI have accepted this, the international body for decommissioning Have accepted this, former members can be involved in god knows what these days, but to say the PIRA is still operating is just wrong

    Thats the party line that Sinn Fein/IRA like to trot out, thats for sure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Never stated that. Please show me where I have.

    I said "perhaps"

    So you believe then that the PIRA is criminally active for the sole purpose of personal monetary gain?

    Personally I would have thought that the obvious reason for a "still active" paramilitary organisation to be gathering money would be to buy weapons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭Notorious97


    Thats the party line that Sinn Fein/IRA like to trot out, thats for sure.

    Not a ‘party’ line, its a fact, a fact that anti Republicans love to dismiss. Do you think if they were still operating unionists would share power?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    ...So you believe then that the PIRA is criminally active for the sole purpose of personal monetary gain?
    I believe (as do the policing agencies across Europe - and have reported so) that its members are still doing the same activities in finance gain and have diversified into other areas as well - as the saying goes "they have not gone away" - they have just diversified and for anyone to think different, is to deny the many crimes reported every so often in our news, is to deny the police reports, is to deny the pain filled words/testaments of the families of loved ones that have and in some cases, are still dying.

    Even a report late last year stated:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1934610.html


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Biggins wrote: »
    I believe (as do the policing agencies across Europe - and have reported so) that its members are still doing the same activities in finance gain and have diversified into other areas as well - as the saying goes "they have not gone away" - they have just diversified and for anyone to think different, is to deny the many crimes reported every so often in our news, is to deny the police reports, is to deny the pain filled words/testaments of the families of loved ones that have and in some cases, are still dying.

    Even a report late last year stated:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/provos-aiding-rogue-republicans-1934610.html
    And why are they supposedly doing that?

    FORMER Provisional IRA activists
    Ehhhh you do know what that means right? As in they are no longer affiliated with SF or the PIRA?

    The commission accepts that only a few former provisionals are giving help to the dissidents and says is not surprising following the dissolution of IRA structures.
    And again.
    but the majority of their new members are inexperienced young men.


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