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Is Sinn Fein losing their grip?

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  • 14-07-2010 9:17am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭


    Watching the violence in north Belfast the other night it became apparent that Sinn Fein are starting to lose the control they had over Republican youths.

    I remember a time when the local Sinn Fein member had a Puppeteer control over the local population and if instructed to either start or stop a riot the crowd would follow orders.

    So what happen last night?

    A one stage when Gerry Kelly was being interviewed in the Ardoyne on Wednesday evening the kids behind him were throwing stones at the Police, against the wishes of Kelly who was calling for calm.

    10 or even 5 years ago this would have never happen, nobody would have the balls to go against an instruction from a senior Sinn Fein member.

    I can predict what Sinn Fein support will reply.

    “Sinn Fein is now the largest party in Northern Ireland by vote share”

    My question is, are Sinn Fein loosing control over the youth in republican areas and thus driving them into the arms of dissident republicans


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Yeah it's a natural consequence of the Peace Process.

    Years ago posters like yourself would moan about SF's links to the IRA.
    You'd complain when you read about a punishment beating.
    Yet you never considered that there were certain advantages to that relationship.

    Back in the day a SF person or his minders could mention the IRA to those gurriers and they'd suddenly find their manners.
    Today there is no IRA (Provos anyway), which means there are no punishment beatings or kneecappings: the only tools in the box for the IRA to put manners on those youths.

    Lots of room for the Real IRA to exploit me thinks.
    I just hope the PSNI don't do something stupid and pour fuel on the fire.

    How do you think SF should control these gangs of youths?
    Try and invite them for tea?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    How do you think SF should control these gangs of youths?
    Try and invite them for tea?

    i think this thread has it arse-ways

    its the job of the police to control gangs

    not a political party


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    It's not a question of SF losing their grip in my opinion,just the standard result years of double standards by a hard core of layabouts on both sides in that country.

    They paint themselves into ghettoes,the Nats have noooo problem taking the 'Queen's shilling' most of them never did a days work in their lives and never will,and that's on both sides.

    So when an event like the twelfth comes along, or a Celtic Rangers game or a march of some kind, it's almost carte blanche for these thugs to run riot.

    Both sides are responsible and the loser is the taxpayer who now has to fund the policing and clean up.

    A lot of these people will only respond when they feel the muzzle of a loaded gun against their thick heads.

    Bottom line is ,I suppose, you can't clean out a festering sore that has gone untreated for many many years in a short time.

    As a previous poster said, it opens the door for the hard liners.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    I think the level of criminality that alot of us know is going on within reach of their influence or org, is holding them back too.
    As long as they are say on one hand that "we are upholding the lands of the land now" and on the other at local level, allowing scumbags possibly known to them to carry on with their very evil antics of murder, drug related crime and petrol rackets to name just three - they will always be looked upon with the same distain we now have equally for Fianna Fail!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Winty


    They paint themselves into ghettoes,the Nats have noooo problem taking the 'Queen's shilling' most of them never did a days work in their lives and never will,and that's on both sides.

    Good Point

    I saw one guy being interviewd on BBC news (face hidden from view) saying

    "What peace process, we dont have jobs nor nothing" "Catholics are second glass in our own country"

    To be fair to Sinn Fein who could help a ned like him.
    He thinks the world owes him a flat screen TV and a girlfriend with bigger breasts


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Winty wrote: »
    Good Point

    I saw one guy being interviewd on BBC news (face hidden from view) saying

    "What peace process, we dont have jobs nor nothing" "Catholics are second glass in our own country"

    To be fair to Sinn Fein who could help a ned like him.
    He thinks the world owes him a flat screen TV and a girlfriend with bigger breasts
    I agree but if they want his support (and ours someday) they will have to end the witness intimidation to the crimes some of their colleagues are participating in.
    They will have to end the two faced lies to the nations cameras.
    They will have to hand over those they know to be responsible for many a crime.
    They will have to stop some of their "mates" raiding the Dublin dock ship containers.
    They will have to stop supposedly taking revenue from those in crime who are coughing up so that the republican regional gangs (local equivalent versions of a "Mafia" now) will look the other way.

    They will have to do all that and more - but you and I know they won't.
    So they will stay where they are, in limbo floating around with a core minimum support and remain going nowhere fast.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Not necessarily, Sinn Féin's political demise is occurring due to its abandonment of radical politics backed up with hard work on the ground. Like other parties before them, their rush to the centre ground of Irish politics has led to them falling between two stools, their lack of ability to capitalise on massive public discontent is also fairly telling considering they have less support now than they did at the height of the boom.

    While the IRA thing is undoubtedly a large turn off for many, to hold that up as the reason of their stagnation is just plain wrong really.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    FTA69 wrote: »
    ...While the IRA thing is undoubtedly a large turn off for many, to hold that up as the reason of their stagnation is just plain wrong really.
    I respect your opinion but will have to disagree completely.
    I, my family (close and extended) and many that I know still see the one and the other as something that has just changed tactics, done a PR job and possible re-organisation while still maintaining the same bad antics.
    ...But we will have to agree, to disagree. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭Mylesie


    It's not a question of SF losing their grip in my opinion,just the standard result years of double standards by a hard core of layabouts on both sides in that country.

    They paint themselves into ghettoes,the Nats have noooo problem taking the 'Queen's shilling' most of them never did a days work in their lives and never will,and that's on both sides.

    The Queen's shilling??? Are you sure you got that right??


  • Registered Users Posts: 33 CMACSAFF


    The majority of those rioting in the Ardoyne have little to no interest in politics and couldn't for the life of them articulate a political position. They just take the chance to cause mayhem and others use it for their own purposes.

    Scum plain and simple.

    This will not in any way effect the Sinn Fein vote.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭froog


    sinn fein never had a "grip".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    From what I could see, SF have got nothing to do with this. it looked like a bunch of thugs who just wanted an excuse to riot. politics/civil rights etc had nothing to do with it, other than being a very handy excuse to throw a few stones.

    The fact that guns were fired and petrol/nail/pipe bombs thrown does suggest that someone is orchestrating this though. Scobes don't suddenly learn how to build a pipe bomb and find a gun to fire. someone with a ****ed up agenda has pulled a few strings and a few idiots fell for it, supported by a number of people who were just looking for a riot.

    It has been a sad few days in NI all round.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Biggins wrote: »
    I think the level of criminality that alot of us know is going on within reach of their influence or org, is holding them back too.
    As long as they are say on one hand that "we are upholding the lands of the land now" and on the other at local level, allowing scumbags possibly known to them to carry on with their very evil antics of murder, drug related crime and petrol rackets to name just three - they will always be looked upon with the same distain we now have equally for Fianna Fail!

    You seem to be equating Sinn Fein with racketeering. If you've evidence, present it - to the Gardai as well, preferably. Otherwise I'd suggest keeping unfounded accusations out of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭Mylesie


    From what I could see, SF have got nothing to do with this. it looked like a bunch of thugs who just wanted an excuse to riot. politics/civil rights etc had nothing to do with it, other than being a very handy excuse to throw a few stones.

    The fact that guns were fired and petrol/nail/pipe bombs thrown does suggest that someone is orchestrating this though. Scobes don't suddenly learn how to build a pipe bomb and find a gun to fire. someone with a ****ed up agenda has pulled a few strings and a few idiots fell for it, supported by a number of people who were just looking for a riot.

    It has been a sad few days in NI all round.
    see Father gary Donovan slant on it!!

    http://sluggerotoole.com/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Mylesie wrote: »
    see Father gary Donovan slant on it!!

    http://sluggerotoole.com/

    There are some good points raised there. A lot of the pictures showed enough information for parents to recognise their kids. If i caught one of mine involved in something like that they would be grounded for life!

    As the saying goes though, they don't lick it up off the floor.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Winty


    From what I could see, SF have got nothing to do with this. it looked like a bunch of thugs who just wanted an excuse to riot.

    Agree

    Just to be clear, I am no way putting the blame on Sinn Fein, in fact they did try to stop the trouble, my point is that republician areas are no longer under the control of Sinn Fein.

    Will the dissident republicans now gain control in areas like the Bogside?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭kmick


    I think the day the cameras stop turning up for what is essentially a social outing for half wits then at least we wont have to watch them. Its a local problem let the local police sort it out - why is it newsworthy any more?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭froog


    shameful scenes on the belfast dublin train.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Winty wrote: »
    Agree

    Just to be clear, I am no way putting the blame on Sinn Fein, in fact they did try to stop the trouble, my point is that republician areas are no longer under the control of Sinn Fein.

    Will the dissident republicans now gain control in areas like the Bogside?

    That's a good and very worrying point.

    As the BBC reporter said, a lot of those rioting weren't even born when the IRA called their last cease fire, so what is their rationale for doing this? is it because it is what their parents did and they see it as being traditional, are they being influenced by people who want toderail the peace process? do they think that the days of the troubles were somehow glamorous?

    Now is when the likes of Gerry Kelly need to be standing up and saying "I was involved and i did some shameful things, it is not big and not clever and it certainly isn't the way forward.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Nodin wrote: »
    You seem to be equating Sinn Fein with racketeering. If you've evidence, present it - to the Gardai as well, preferably. Otherwise I'd suggest keeping unfounded accusations out of it.
    I equate some of their associates with some very still illegal activities amid the still ongoing news reports of these activities are still being broadcast across the nation weekly to say the least.

    Please, don't make us laugh!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Biggins wrote: »
    I equate (............)!

    What you "equate" in the privacy of your own head is your own business. However there's no proof whatsoever to your claims, and thus its best to keep them out of the public domain. What you refer to has been linked to dissident groups. If you have knowledge otherwise, give it to the Gardai and/or the PSNI.

    I find it strange that in a thread where many - none of them friendly towards Sinn Fein - have remarked that the current trouble is none of their doing, you try to drag this nonsense into it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    I respect your opinion but will have to disagree completely.
    I, my family (close and extended) and many that I know still see the one and the other as something that has just changed tactics, done a PR job and possible re-organisation while still maintaining the same bad antics.
    ...But we will have to agree, to disagree.

    The same bad antics? The Provisional IRA is largely defunct nowadays, your notion that they're some sort of mass-organised crime group inextricably tied to Sinn Féin is just plain wrong like.

    Similarly your assertion that the above is the reason behind Sinn Féin's stagnation is also plain wrong, the party was up to 14% in opinion polls at one stage; and that's when the IRA very much did exist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Regards this recent rioting, personally I don't see much to be gained in wrecking your own gaff; that having been said it's also important to look at the cause behind these riots and that was the cops trying to force a sectarian and triumphalist parade through an area where it wasn't wanted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    As the BBC reporter said, a lot of those rioting weren't even born when the IRA called their last cease fire, so what is their rationale for doing this? is it because it is what their parents did and they see it as being traditional, are they being influenced by people who want toderail the peace process? do they think that the days of the troubles were somehow glamorous?

    I think that could be the problem. They don't remember the reality of it, they have it built up into some sort of mythical crusade against the Boogeyman and get wrapped up in all the drama of their idea of it. Trying to prove they're every bit as big and bad as the lads in the murals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭Jaap


    FTA69 wrote: »
    The same bad antics? The Provisional IRA is largely defunct nowadays, your notion that they're some sort of mass-organised crime group inextricably tied to Sinn Féin is just plain wrong like.

    Similarly your assertion that the above is the reason behind Sinn Féin's stagnation is also plain wrong, the party was up to 14% in opinion polls at one stage; and that's when the IRA very much did exist.

    The IRA is defunct nowadays...what about this article from about 2 years ago!!!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/27/northernireland.henrymcdonald

    Poor Paul Quinn...and even Robert McCartney!!!

    The IRA are still going...just like the UVF who murdered on the Shankill a month or so ago!!! Scum the lot of them!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Jaap wrote: »
    The IRA is defunct nowadays...what about this article from about 2 years ago!!!

    Yeah, two years ago. The IRA as an organisation is defunct, and it certainly isn't a nationally-organised criminal organisation the way some people on this thread have tried to suggest.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Nodin wrote: »
    What you "equate" in the privacy of your own head is your own business. However there's no proof whatsoever to your claims, and thus its best to keep them out of the public domain. What you refer to has been linked to dissident groups. If you have knowledge otherwise, give it to the Gardai and/or the PSNI.

    I find it strange that in a thread where many - none of them friendly towards Sinn Fein - have remarked that the current trouble is none of their doing, you try to drag this nonsense into it.

    Really? Talk about head in the sand or just not wishing to see it!

    Let me quote just ONE site of many:
    The simple fact is that the IRA, of which Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams are so proud, committed an enormous number of crimes. Even by the Sutton Index ,which grossly underestimates the IRA’s crimes, it was responsible for 1709 deaths during the Troubles and that is to leave out crimes which are accepted by practically everyone to have been committed by the IRA such as Kingsmills.

    Senior individuals within Sinn Fein have been repeatedly linked to criminality. Gerry Adams himself has been linked to La Mon and possibly most notoriously to the murder of Jean McConville. Adams’s denials have to be taken alongside his other denials. Whilst various politicians have tried to make their lives appear more interesting than they are (a category into which Adam’s claims to have sung “Always look on the bright side of life” in gaol should be put): his lies about being in gaol when Jean McConville was murdered paint a picture of an individual whose word is utterly worthless.

    It is of course not only Adams who seems to have blood not only on his hands but to be saturated in the stuff: Operation Taurus against Martin McGuinness appeared to have evidence of several crimes for which he could have been prosecuted and in 2001 Ian Paisley named Martin McGuinness as the one who ordered Frank Hegarty’s murder.

    In very few countries would politicians be expected to share power with a party led by people over whom such serious accusations hang. It might be possible to argue that these accusations are exactly that, only accusations: however, there are also multiple Sinn Fein MLAs who have been found guilty of serious crimes. Gerry Kelly is a released life sentence criminal, convicted in connection with the Old Bailey bombing which killed one person and injured 200. Paul Butler was convicted of murdering a police officer, Martina Anderson is a convicted bomber, Conor Murphy was convicted of explosives offences.

    Sinn Fein of course do not accept the IRA’s actions as remotely criminal. In a time of peace Jean McConville’s kidnap, murder and burial would be a crime: in a time of war it would be a war crime. However, as recently as January 2005 Mitchell McLaughlin, the then Sinn Fein chairman, claimed that the murder of Jean McConville was not a crime: a position which Sinn Fein have yet to reverse.

    However, even if these crimes are regarded as political there are plenty of other examples of an attitude to criminality which would make it difficult for Sinn Fein to be accepted as democratic politicians in any other society.

    Source: http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/04/30/sinn-fein-and-criminality/

    I suggest you get that head out of the sand and in fact look up alone a copy of the Sutton Index!
    Here let me start you off: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/

    Another sample quote:
    The position of Sinn Fein on the Northern Bank robbery is of course that the IRA did not do it and as such presumably if they are to be taken at their word (a laughable concept) then indeed it is irrelevant. Again though to pretend for a moment to take that seriously.

    When the infamous Thomas Murphy was arrested over tax evasion, Adams stated: “Tom Murphy is not a criminal. He’s a good republican and I read his statement after the Manchester raids and I believe what he says and also and very importantly he is a key supporter of Sinn Féin’s peace strategy and has been for a very long time.”


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Jaap wrote: »
    The IRA is defunct nowadays...what about this article from about 2 years ago!!!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/27/northernireland.henrymcdonald

    Poor Paul Quinn...and even Robert McCartney!!!

    The IRA are still going...just like the UVF who murdered on the Shankill a month or so ago!!! Scum the lot of them!!!

    Your article talks of "claims". Those claims were investigated and found to be untrue, if you might recall. According to the international bodies that monitor the situation, the PIRA is defunct, gone and disbanded. Until that changes, I'd suggest focussing on the groups that do exist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭Jaap


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Regards this recent rioting, personally I don't see much to be gained in wrecking your own gaff; that having been said it's also important to look at the cause behind these riots and that was the cops trying to force a sectarian and triumphalist parade through an area where it wasn't wanted.

    Obviously the Parades Commission thought the march should've went ahead...they have after all banned the Garvaghy Road and Lower Ormeau parades...and probably ones in Dunloy and other areas where Sinn Fein and residents groups have stoked up tensions!!!
    I feel sorry for the ordinary residents of the 20 houses the Ardoyne parade goes by...and the 20 odd shops as well (the trade they are losing out on)....it is also sad that good cross community work between Ardoyne and surrounding protestant areas could be affected by rioters who don't even live in the area and who travel many miles to pretend to be offended by a small parade with no music that takes 5 minutes to pass and allows marchers to get home from town!!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭Jaap


    Nodin wrote: »
    Your article talks of "claims". Those claims were investigated and found to be untrue, if you might recall. According to the international bodies that monitor the situation, the PIRA is defunct, gone and disbanded. Until that changes, I'd suggest focussing on the groups that do exist.

    Everybody knows what organisation murdered Paul Quinn and Robert McCartney...I think you are wrong Nodin my friend...or just like Gerry Adams can be at times...you are in denial!!! :D
    I remember at the time of Robert's death there was a rumour that the IRA volunteered to execute the IRA killers of Mr McCartney...but the family didn't want that...


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