The FF Mafia

aDeener wrote: »

thats downright wrong and stupid. you honestly believe the majority of FF are crooked? there isnt a :rolleyes: big enough for that tbh

Yes. Corrupt or turning a blind eye.

aDeener wrote: »

that is one huge statement to make. what is it based on?

The fact that they vote confidence in con-men might be a strong indication that they "turn a blind eye", or even condone corruption, as would the fact that most of those "found out" have been at the highest levels of the organisation, no ?

Two party leaders under investigation at tribunals (one died before justice was done); one of these yet to be judged but without a tax clearance cert, the other implicated in a phone-tapping scandal
One former high-level minister currently in jail for corruption
Another killed in a car crash while under investigation
A Ceann Comhairle found out and disgraced
A Mayo TD brought back into the fold one her high-profile scandal died down
A former Minister for Finance highlighted as having a dodgy mortgage
A Minister disgraced for slandering another public representative
A Taoiseach-appointed Senator under investigation for unwarranted expenses

....and those are just off the top of my head.

oscarBravo wrote: »

So where should I go to find a picture of the queen...........?

Irish Times / Indo in the Autumn should do it.. When she's shaking Brian Cowen's hand at the start of the state visit. Thats if he's still the taoiseach.

snyper wrote: »

How can you know this?

Give me proof that the Majority as you claim are corrupt.

Shea, give us the proof.

Wide Road wrote: »

Shea, give us the proof.

As I'm called out;
DeValera, defrauded Irish people and their decendants on an international basis under the guise of patriotism. Please see the Irish Press shares...the 'A' shares, little more than receipts, for the public, the 'B' actual shares kept for him and his. FACT. He defrauded Irish people across the globe on the basis of nationalism and supporting our own only to fill his own pockets and that of his family tree. Scum bag.
You've Haughey, (he had off-shore accounts, not in his wardrobe) Flynn, Cooper-Flynn, Burke, Lawlor, O'Donoghue, O'Dea... Just a sample of the fraudsters and liars within.
Seriously, I'm suprised you need ask.
I wait with baited breath on Ahern, (who is laughing at you and I by the way) with luck we'll have the cop on to begin jailing these anti-Irish turds. By which I mean they have no feeling or loyalty for you and I, and why would they unless there's something in it for them?

freewheeler wrote: »

Unfortunately none are so blind as those who dont want to see....There is MORE than enough evidence out there and you wont have to look very far to find it, the problem is that people like you don't want to believe that your heroes are nothing more than corrupt traitors who have sold this country down the river! My only solace is that they will at least get whats coming to them in the (hopefully soon) next general election

Heroes! Who said they are my heroes? Are you in the guessing game? Why not deal with facts rather than your guessing game? How many corrupt politicians make up a corrupt party? Is it 1, 10, 20 or more? Is it because you and others think that their own parties are so squekly clean. There has been questions asked on this site about Sean Barretts affairs. Nobody as far as I can remember have answered them. Why? Is Ml Noonan corrupt due to his time as Minister? How did Ml Lowry pay off the FG party debt? Why did Enda change the FG policy on party donations? Most of these questions have been asked on different threads yet are not yet answered. Why? People here prefer to go back to Devs time, for some crazy reason. God knows what is going on in their heads. Unlike others, I won't guess. Would you like to?

freewheeler wrote: »

The point being made (that you choose to ignore) is that FF is now and always has been rotten to the core..how many examples do you need exactly? They have proved on occasions too numerous to mention where there interests lie..and its with those who line their pockets.
Therefore i think that the mafia comparisons are quite apt actually..as a matter of fact i think FF could teach La Cosa Nostra a thing or too...

Lazy reply. Read again before you post please. I know it might take a while but read again and answer SVP.

paddyland wrote: »

I was watching a program on TV one night about the rise and fall of the Mafia, and the similarities to our Fianna Fáil party struck me. Here you had an organisation with a very distinct hierarchy, a number of prominent 'families' who promoted their own, an organisation that infiltrated every level of society, from the lowest right up to the top, that had it's people everywhere, controlling, and reporting back to the 'family.' Practically nothing could be done in business, either legally or illegally, without a kickback to the 'family.'

Much of their activity was perfectly legal, albeit a front for the shadier practices going on behind the scenes. The Mafia was controlled by a series of dons, who ranged from the discreet to the flamboyant, but who even in all their power, knew just how far they could safely go. Alas, it was when the most flamboyant of them all, John Gotti, came to power, a man who from an early age made it his business to rise ruthlessly to the top, that things began to go wrong. Here was a man with a huge sense of his own invincibility, who took the 'family' into business interests that heretofore had been frowned upon, who pushed the envelope too far, and when he fell, took the 'family' with him.

The parallels are interesting. Fianna Fáil as an organisation rose and survived as a kind of 'family' which circled the wagons and looked after it's own. Much of their existence was owed to working the system, not for the betterment of everyone, but purely for the betterment of their own. While not strictly illegal, they managed to fiddle the rules, to create a system that favoured the single party in power, not withstanding the existence of small, relatively inconsequential coalition partners. It was only when a new, more ruthless generation climbed their way to the top, and pushed the organisation into new depths of roguery that they finally fell. Indeed, there was a false period where it seemed that nothing could go wrong, that they were unstoppable, but from the very arrival of these ruthless new dons, the writing was on the wall, no matter how many riches befell them.

.....

Can you give examples of this that show it was systemic, and existed at all levels of the party throughout its history, and not limited to a number of individuals. There are 60+ TDs for FF in the Dáil currently. For your analogy to stand you must show that the overwhelming majority or indeed all members have been involved in rougueish behaviour. Can you show this?

No you can't, therefore the fundamentals of your argument are unsound. Therefore its your archetypical bull**** anti FF groundless rant.

Wide Road wrote: »

Is it because you and others think that their own parties are so squekly clean.

Why do some people always assume that people have to be a member of ANY party, or that criticism of FF is scoring party-political points, rather than simply being what it is - criticism based on FF actions ?

For the record, I was never a member of a politicial party, but would have considered joining the PDs, back in O'Malley's time.

Then they completely lost their way, both socio-economically and ethically, so I stopped voting for them.

That's what you're supposed to do when a party goes against what's good for the country.

snyper wrote: »

Significant high level? Please elabourate on that by what you mean significant. Do you have any idea the number of elected members of the FF party there have been, as opposed to the few that have been seen to do wrong?

Well there's Haughey, Ahern, Flynn, Callely, O'Dea, O'Donoghue, Lawlor and Burke to name the obvious suspects who have DIRECTLY engaged in corruption.

However, the key point is that all of the members who were in FF at the same time as the above were leaders and top-level members, and who chose to vote in favour of, or confidence in, the above have "been seen to do wrong", because they condoned and facilitated corruption.

7 high-level members is one thing, and **** happens in the best of organisations.

But when the other members say "yup, great, carry on" then the whole organisation is tainted, and rightly so.

snyper wrote: »

Do i think that FF members condone these wayward members? No, not in the slighest

Incorrect. They condone them because it suits them and keeps them in power, regardless of the example that it sets or the damage that it does....because "the party" comes first.

Until that attitude changes, this country is sunk.

It's the equivalent of saying nothing about a family member or a relation who's a drug-dealer.....and even the "family member" is more understandable, because there's an actual link between you; not saying I'd condone it either way, but the fact is that a bunch of people within an organisation are not linked by blood or emotion.

If I was a member of an organisation that tolerated such crap, I'd threaten to leave.

And your stance about majorities being on a knife-edge works both ways, because my threatening to leave would mean that they would be risking being down a TD if they insisted on condoning corruption. All it takes is two or three TDs with ethics and that same knife-edge swings actually becomes a trump card to those objecting to corruption.

Unfortunately, given the "votes of confidence" by those 77, there are none of them who wish to challenge the corruption in their party.

snyper wrote: »

The primary purpose of an elected representative is that firstly to the people that voted for them and secondly to the party, which if in government would be to the running of the country.

So what do you suggest that that elected representative should do if they find a member writing blank cheques or appointing his buddies or claiming expenses, all of which waste the money of the people that voted for them ?

Stop the waste and openly and honestly criticise the dodgy actions (primary purpose)
Support the party to keep it in power (secondary purpose)

Which have FF members done ?

BTW, I'm completely ignoring the fact that politicians aren't only meant to represent those who vote for them (which is the line taken by a certain FF TD in Cork).....if that were the case, and the people who voted for FF were corrupt bankers and developers and "businessmen", then they would act in their interests and ignore the best interests of the country.

snyper wrote: »

So the next rebuttle i hear comming is that they should show some spine or moral leadership and get out of government.. well if moral leadership is what you are looking for move to Tibet and vote for the dalai lama, If you want spine, i think the one thing you can credit FF fail for is their conviction to steer this country out of recession.

While personally I would love to see FF get out of Government, your presumption of that rebuttal is also incorrect, because there are 2 options :

1) Leave FF (as you said)
2) Kick out the corrupt scumbags, cleaning up the party

They've made their choice to do neither, so it is perfectly appropriate to judge them on that choice; they are condoning and supporting corruption, and therefore are guilty by association.

As for "crediting FF" for their "conviction".....well, you can forget that, because - AT BEST - all it does is negate their equal conviction of steering us INTO the recession, full steam ahead.

Their incompetence and nod/wink politics and condoning corruption has cost us dearly, so no - even assuming that their stance isn't deluded, anyone who judges them objectively will not accept your argument.