The FF Mafia

paddyland

I was watching a program on TV one night about the rise and fall of the Mafia, and the similarities to our Fianna Fáil party struck me. Here you had an organisation with a very distinct hierarchy, a number of prominent 'families' who promoted their own, an organisation that infiltrated every level of society, from the lowest right up to the top, that had it's people everywhere, controlling, and reporting back to the 'family.' Practically nothing could be done in business, either legally or illegally, without a kickback to the 'family.'

Much of their activity was perfectly legal, albeit a front for the shadier practices going on behind the scenes. The Mafia was controlled by a series of dons, who ranged from the discreet to the flamboyant, but who even in all their power, knew just how far they could safely go. Alas, it was when the most flamboyant of them all, John Gotti, came to power, a man who from an early age made it his business to rise ruthlessly to the top, that things began to go wrong. Here was a man with a huge sense of his own invincibility, who took the 'family' into business interests that heretofore had been frowned upon, who pushed the envelope too far, and when he fell, took the 'family' with him.

The parallels are interesting. Fianna Fáil as an organisation rose and survived as a kind of 'family' which circled the wagons and looked after it's own. Much of their existence was owed to working the system, not for the betterment of everyone, but purely for the betterment of their own. While not strictly illegal, they managed to fiddle the rules, to create a system that favoured the single party in power, not withstanding the existence of small, relatively inconsequential coalition partners. It was only when a new, more ruthless generation climbed their way to the top, and pushed the organisation into new depths of roguery that they finally fell. Indeed, there was a false period where it seemed that nothing could go wrong, that they were unstoppable, but from the very arrival of these ruthless new dons, the writing was on the wall, no matter how many riches befell them.

Scofflaw elsewhere observes that Fianna Fáil has a much stronger cohesion at ground level, which carries them through the roughest times, something the other parties cannot manage so well. The fundamental question for me is this: How much of that support is based on a genuine political ideology that Fianna Fáil is 'good for the country,' and how much of it is based on a very selfish ideology that Fianna Fáil is good for itself and those within it? I think I could live with Fianna Fáil if there was a genuine belief among even just a quarter of the population that voting Fianna Fáil was a genuine political alternative. However my fear is that nowhere near a fraction of their support believes this. Rather, the majority of that quarter of the population continues to give them their cohesive strength because the party is good for them personally, on a purely selfish basis, as long as they continue their support. It is a bit like supporting the worst excesses of the Mafia dons, as long as there is a tiny kickback down the line. Even if, in Fianna Fáil's case, that tiny kickback is nothing more than planning permission for a garden shed, or a fast tracked passport or driving test.

For this reason, the more important issues regarding Fianna Fáil for me, are NOT the excessive corruption of individuals of that party, like Beverley Flynn, John O'Donoghue, Ivor Callely, to take those examples. Each of those individually merits full investigation, and due retribution. The gross expense claims of Callely, for example, will make little difference to the public purse. He needs to be made an example of, yes. But the wider issue is how Fianna Fáil as an organisation operates, how it is fundamentally structured, what it's purpose is. I fear it is not a political party with the best interests of the country foremost in it's mind, but rather primarily with it's OWN interests foremost. In such a case, the country under Fianna Fáil is doomed to flounder and fail, because it's leaders have an alternative agenda to the single agenda of making this country be the best and fairest it can be, for ALL it's citizens. This has become self evident in recent times, catastrophically. But I suggest the country always suffered so, it simply took the current generation of ruthless FF leaders, who got so carried away with power and privelege, to make it so obvious.

We need our tribunals of investigation into the worst excesses of the corruption, where the money went, who were the cause of it all. BUT, I fear that concentrating solely on that, takes the eye off the real issue, which is the long term support in this country for a political organisation that does not have as it's first and sole agenda, the betterment of this country and all it's people, but rather a partisan and selfish agenda to look after a select and narrow slice of the country. Why does a political party with such a divisive track record continue to consolidate itself and buy it's way into power, election after election, generation after generation, while a new state with the advantage of a clean slate, manages to squander nearly ninety years without making an example of itself as a modern, fair society, but rather, a corrupted, unequal society with an extreme class divide and a tarnished reputation for greed and bribery? THAT is the REAL investigation we need. This country is going NOWHERE as long as we continue to play cards with the same loaded deck, no matter how many jokers we throw aside.

Biggins

No argument from me. They have been behaving like an organised mafia mob for years now.

scr123

Would someone please identify the FF mafia and collate specific charges against those named and would they then please head to nearest Garda Station and demand immediate investigation. If this task cannot be carried out would it not be better for people to shut up and get on with life instead of being obsessed about nothing.
Maybe they might instead take the task of finding out why so many members of Dail Eareann over recent decades have sat in the chamber collecting many millions of euro playing the mickey mouse role of opposition to the nearly, through no fault of their own, permanent government of FF

Biggins

scr123 wrote: »

(a) Would someone please identify the FF mafia and collate specific charges against those named and would they then please head to nearest Garda Station and demand immediate investigation. (b) If this task cannot be carried out would it not be better for people to shut up and get on with life instead of being obsessed about nothing.
(c) Maybe they might instead take the task of finding out why so many members of Dail Eareann over recent decades have sat in the chamber collecting many millions of euro playing the mickey mouse role of opposition to the nearly, through no fault of their own, permanent government of FF

(a) Start at the top and work your way down!
(b) "obsessed about nothing" ! :pac: and no, the public won't "shut up" for they are the "public" - not "proles".
(c) Himmmm... tough question. For the money (not rocket science!) - and who changed the rules yet again for the clocking-in system again? :rolleyes:

sceptre

scr123 wrote: »

Would someone please identify the FF mafia and collate specific charges against those named and would they then please head to nearest Garda Station and demand immediate investigation. If this task cannot be carried out would it not be better for people to shut up and get on with life instead of being obsessed about nothing.
Maybe they might instead take the task of finding out why so many members of Dail Eareann over recent decades have sat in the chamber collecting many millions of euro playing the mickey mouse role of opposition to the nearly, through no fault of their own, permanent government of FF

I'm not convinced that you've understood the point of the thread or the mafia (or implicit cosa nostra/omertà) reference, which is a shame as it's explicitly stated as a comparison analogy in the first sentence of the OP. I suggest reading the rest of the OP with the explicitly-stated analogy in mind and considering a reply with that in mind, rather than merely the thread title. You might agree, you might disagree - who knows, but it's sort of the point to boards.ie posts having more an a 140-character limit. It's more fun and more useful that way.

Mrmoe

Is this not the fundamental problem with all political parties or the political party system? I am sure if you have any party in power for the length of time that FF have been in power will you will almost certainly get mafia like tendencies. You will find this behaviour in most parties not just in Ireland but across the world. I think that in order to not repeat the mistakes of the past the entire system would have to be reformed in order to get rid of the navel gazing that is characteristic of all political parties.

AckwelFoley

sceptre wrote: »

I'm not convinced that you've understood the point of the thread or the mafia (or implicit cosa nostra/omertà) reference, which is a shame as it's explicitly stated as a comparison analogy in the first sentence of the OP. I suggest reading the rest of the OP with the explicitly-stated analogy in mind and considering a reply with that in mind, rather than merely the thread title. You might agree, you might disagree - who knows, but it's sort of the point to boards.ie posts having more an a 140-character limit. It's more fun and more useful that way.

Yea, comparsion analogy.. that does not compare.
Mafia are illegal. Controlled by families.

FF are democratically elected party.

Other than a helping of populist buzz words and accusations, its tripe.

The best trick FF ever pulled is having people hate them, yes, im serious - they spend so much time hating them the fail to look at their policies and what they are doing..

Look at FG.. they have failed to gain the confidence of voters in the last election and the next.. why? Because for all their talk -- nothing is about policy and solutions other than condemming FF.

oscarBravo

snyper wrote: »

Look at FG.. they have failed to gain the confidence of voters in the last election and the next.. why? Because for all their talk -- nothing is about policy and solutions other than condemming FF.

To be fair, that's little other than populist buzzwords and accusations. If you think FG don't have policies, you're not looking hard enough.

Whether you agree with their policies is a different debate, but they deserve credit for their health system proposal, if nothing else.

thebman

FG's website is full of policies thrown at you almost immediately when you visit their site.

FF's are much harder to find and their site and email updates are move about all the good works their members are doing for the community.

I'm signed up to all the parties news updates as I'm not linked to any party and want to make an informed decision on who to vote for.

Shea O'Meara

Once again the pro FF defence is, 'sure look at FG/LAB/SF...'

DeValera was a fraudulent thief, which is a fact. The Mafia analogy stands for the rest, Haughey, Ahern, Lawlor.

How would RICO work on Fianna Fail?

Under RICO, a person who is a member of an enterprise that has committed any two of 35 crimes—27 federal crimes and 8 state crimes—within a 10-year period can be charged with racketeering. Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $25,000 and sentenced to 20 years in prison per racketeering count. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill-gotten gains and interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity." RICO also permits a private individual harmed by the actions of such an enterprise to file a civil suit; if successful, the individual can collect treble damages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act

Is it just me or do Fianna Fail fall under this? I guess incompetence can be used as a defence;)
In every case there is argument that those who gained, Callely, Burke, Ahern, Haughey, Flynn, Cooper-Flynn, Lawlor.....could be charged with racketeering and we each, individually could file a civil suit.
If we can make changes to, in comparison, small fry like the street gangs, could we do something like RICO for the big fish who do a lot more harm?
Surely the mythical FF grassroots who want a clean party would agree?:rolleyes:

"Boss" Ahern on Haughey.......

paddyland

scr123 wrote: »

Would someone please identify the FF mafia and collate specific charges against those named and would they then please head to nearest Garda Station and demand immediate investigation. If this task cannot be carried out would it not be better for people to shut up and get on with life instead of being obsessed about nothing.
Maybe they might instead take the task of finding out why so many members of Dail Eareann over recent decades have sat in the chamber collecting many millions of euro playing the mickey mouse role of opposition to the nearly, through no fault of their own, permanent government of FF

That is the nearest thing I have read on Boards to a claim that there should be no opposition at all, this should be a one-party Fianna Fáil state, and they should have free reign to exercise the worst of their glutony without question. Look where ten years of Bertie led us. I'd hate to see what an unopposed ninety years would have done! Good luck with that one.

Liam Byrne

paddyland wrote: »

That is the nearest thing I have read on Boards to a claim that there should be no opposition at all, this should be a one-party Fianna Fáil state, and they should have free reign to exercise the worst of their glutony without question. Look where ten years of Bertie led us. I'd hate to see what an unopposed ninety years would have done! Good luck with that one.

Ah now, paddyland....you've missed the point.

What I read from that is that the opposition have been a waste of millions.

Compare and contrast that with FF who have wasted billions.

So the bottom line is that I'd prefer to have a permanent opposition than have FF in power; we'd all be better off.

Rosahane

I think it's unfair to compare FF to the Mafia!


...after all the Mafia had some principles:D

aDeener

i think there should be just 1 "FF are evil/traitors/etc" thread, where we can have a right ole discussion on just how bad they are.

thebman

Rosahane wrote: »

I think it's unfair to compare FF to the Mafia!


...after all the Mafia had some principles:D

At least the Mafia got rid of members that were liabilities.

FF is loyal to the end to the likes of Flynn and Bertie.

mrboswell

They could easily shed some the dead weight...

Might actually help us in the long run

scr123

Might be a little corruption in FF history but unlike the extreme right FG and extreme left led by Labour, associations with Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia are nowhere to be seen in FF. Mafia comparisons are pretty tame when one thinks of tens of millions slaughtered under the regimes which our left and right wings are tainted with. If this board is willing to condone branding of innocent people as criminals I am sure it will not mind a litle bit of truth coming out. You will not find a swastika or hammer & sickle in a FF household. If one wants a picture of the queen of England or a sample of a Black & Tan uniform it will not be a FF household you will go to. This thread and op confirms the board is willing to allow the gloves to come off with malicious slurs against innocent FF people like me. No better man to take on people with nothing but vile open hatred. The one blessing this country has enjoyed above all else is that we never allowed the extreme left nor the extreme right to form a one party government.

oscarBravo

scr123 wrote: »

You will not find a swastika or hammer & sickle in a FF household. If one wants a picture of the queen of England or a sample of a Black & Tan uniform it will not be a FF household you will go to.

So where should I go to find a picture of the queen, or a B&T uniform, or a swastika, or a soviet flag in this country?

Liam Byrne

oscarBravo wrote: »

So where should I go to find a picture of the queen, or a B&T uniform, or a swastika, or a soviet flag in this country?

Maybe Bertie Ahern's house for the soviet flag ..... didn't he declare himself a socialist at some stage ?

Oh.....hang on......does he have a house these days.......?

BMF Plint

Brian Cowen does remind me of Tony Soprano a bit.
2 Fat fuc*s who dont give a **** what other people think and they think its their way or else the enforcer Brian Lenihan is gonna come and tax you

humanji

Didn't Fianna Fail allow a load of ex-nazis Irish citizenship? Wasn't there some documentary about that a while back? I think it was connected to to Haughey's alleged gun running.

I think the mafia parallel is pretty good, to be honest. Not in a "trying to accuse FF of corruption" kind of way (which is a little too easy), but the parallels are very similar. It could also go for a lot of large organisations though. Many start out well and as some members gain excessive power, they abuse the power and everything falls apart.

I wonder if it's all going to come to ahead when the man at the top gets done for tax evasion.

Wide Road

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Maybe Bertie Ahern's house for the soviet flag ..... didn't he declare himself a socialist at some stage ?

Oh.....hang on......does he have a house these days.......?

To quote yourself Liam, Ask him yourself.

Biggins

thebman wrote: »

At least the Mafia got rid of members that were liabilities.
FF is loyal to the end to the likes of Flynn and Bertie.

...Because they know where the skeletons are buried and who's responsible?
Eh' Calley, Fitzpatrick, John O'Donaghue to name a few more!

Liam Byrne

Wide Road wrote: »

To quote yourself Liam, Ask him yourself.

No point asking ...... I'd have to ask him about 5 times and I still wouldn't get a truthful answer.

AckwelFoley

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Once again the pro FF defence is, 'sure look at FG/LAB/SF...'

DeValera was a fraudulent thief, which is a fact. The Mafia analogy stands for the rest, Haughey, Ahern, Lawlor.

How would RICO work on Fianna Fail?

Under RICO, a person who is a member of an enterprise that has committed any two of 35 crimes—27 federal crimes and 8 state crimes—within a 10-year period can be charged with racketeering. Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $25,000 and sentenced to 20 years in prison per racketeering count. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill-gotten gains and interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity." RICO also permits a private individual harmed by the actions of such an enterprise to file a civil suit; if successful, the individual can collect treble damages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act

Is it just me or do Fianna Fail fall under this? I guess incompetence can be used as a defence;)
In every case there is argument that those who gained, Callely, Burke, Ahern, Haughey, Flynn, Cooper-Flynn, Lawlor.....could be charged with racketeering and we each, individually could file a civil suit.
If we can make changes to, in comparison, small fry like the street gangs, could we do something like RICO for the big fish who do a lot more harm?
Surely the mythical FF grassroots who want a clean party would agree?:rolleyes:

"Boss" Ahern on Haughey.......

more nonsence..

Firstly, please dont assume i am pro FF, its the same presumptions that make your entire FF RICO debate a non runner.

Rico as i read it there is where members acting on behalf of an orginisation commit crimes ..

I dont engage in political debate, i gorw tired of the absolutely misguided anger and frustration. It would be far easier for me to make a big long extensive post blaiming FF corruption based on a handful of greedy chancers, "fat bankers", NAMA and greedy developers for the current state of our economic climate..

Sadly i cant - because while i think about it cut through the populist waffle.

None of the arguements i hear every day are based in the real world.

The real world facts are that banks are business, their main aim - to make a profit, wheather we like it or not they are an very important institution within our economy - as a business they dont have - nor should they have a moral or social obligation - hence the reason for a regulator, however the regulator failed in preventing the banking sector from throwing so many of their eggs into the one basket and becomming over exposed to such a small few.

NAMA is a bitter pill for people to swallow, we have had however no reasonable alternative, the popular on the street wish would be to let them fall, sell the homes of the "fat bankers" and leave them homeless or jail them - Yea, that would make you feal great, sadly however in the real world, we cannot let out banks fall, there are plenty of reasons, one of the bigger reasons would be that if we dont prop up our banks and keep them afloat we would become as attractive to foreign investment into ireland as a Ski Holiday in Sudan.
People are letting their emotions, there hate, there envy for wealthy people over ride rational thinking.

Dont for a second think im rich, nor am i a member of a political party - i know one member of a political party personally and shes a local FF TD, who at the same time happens to be an idiot... i work for a basic wage, im not poor,i do own a house however that i funded by working and saving and building it myself.. i used my same real world thinking at the boom time to not borrow 200,000 to build my home knowing at that time i could affort it, i borrowed 80,000 kknowing that the 2005 economic boom couldnt last forever, i dont credit the banks for that decision, i made the decison, people want to blame everyone except themselves for their current situation.

I cannot understand at any point why we as a nation blame developers for inflated house prices.. They are business men, running companies.. if you are selling apples on moore streetarent you going to try and get the highest price for that apple as you can? Everyone has asked for a wage increase, im pretty sure there are few examples where ordinary people turned down a wage increase because they thought it wasnt socailly acceptable - you didnt want to be greedy and overpaid.

I do blame the government for placing toomuch emphasis on tax cuts and essentially trying to buy the publics affection by cutting taxes and not looking forward to a rainy day such as now.

I do blame the government not forseeing the glaringly obvious down turn in our econimic fortunes. Its didnt take a magic ball, but the global recession started about 18 months beofre it did in Ireland. The US's economic began to drastically cool down, and as sure as night follows day if the biggest economy in the workd loses demand for products and services, a country the size of Ireland isnt going to be immune to it.

People tend to ignore the fact that we are in a global recession, there is nobody to blame for that so we need to look close to home, sadly, we will never be in good economic fortune if our international trading partners are in a poor economic state, yes, i blame the Irish government and FF policies for making the fall that much harder, we fell from 100 ft to 20 ft perhaps if FF made more prdent taxation policies, and better spending decisions the fall would have been from 70 ft to 30ft.

What we dont give the government credit for is if we didnt have a FF or FG type government, by which i mean a slightly right of centre on the poitical spectrum and went for a mix of LAB the greens and the IRA Sinn Feinn, there would have been no fall in the economic fortunes of this country, we would be pottering about on a nice even keel of 10 ft, most of which was funded by Europe.

Shea O'Meara

scr123 wrote: »

Might be a little corruption in FF history

Award for understatment of the thread goes to....
Criminal element since inception, as long as the corrupt get votes the party has no moral concerns about keeping them on board.

scr123 wrote: »

but unlike the extreme right FG and extreme left led by Labour,

Sensationalist blinkered view. Labour are by no means extreme left to be fair. Actually from a FFail perspective if Bertie is a Socialist maybe...

scr123 wrote: »

associations with Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia are nowhere to be seen in FF.

What's your point?

scr123 wrote: »

Mafia comparisons are pretty tame when one thinks of tens of millions slaughtered under the regimes which our left and right wings are tainted with.

Are you seriously saying it's okay if FF are mafia because FG/Lab are Natzi/communist respectively?

scr123 wrote: »

If this board is willing to condone branding of innocent people as criminals I am sure it will not mind a litle bit of truth coming out. You will not find a swastika or hammer & sickle in a FF household. If one wants a picture of the queen of England or a sample of a Black & Tan uniform it will not be a FF household you will go to. This thread and op confirms the board is willing to allow the gloves to come off with malicious slurs against innocent FF people like me. No better man to take on people with nothing but vile open hatred. The one blessing this country has enjoyed above all else is that we never allowed the extreme left nor the extreme right to form a one party government.

Your entire post in choc full of sensationalist slurs and then tries to play the poor mouth on behalf of innocent FF who don't seem to be left or right at all.
I put it to you, there are no innocent Fianna Fail people. It's a myth. Can you name one person in Fianna Fail who is oblivious to the corruption within? Guilt by association. If a person does not want to be slurred in any way, they should not belong to rotten organisations.

Shea O'Meara

snyper wrote: »

more nonsence..

Firstly, please dont assume i am pro FF, its the same presumptions that make your entire FF RICO debate a non runner.

Rico as i read it there is where members acting on behalf of an orginisation commit crimes ..

I dont engage in political debate,

So I won't bother reading your post. Thanks for the time saver.

AckwelFoley

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

So I won't bother reading your post. Thanks for the time saver.

You just did :rolleyes:

aDeener

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Award for understatment of the thread goes to....
Criminal element since inception, as long as the corrupt get votes the party has no moral concerns about keeping them on board.


Sensationalist blinkered view. Labour are by no means extreme left to be fair. Actually from a FFail perspective if Bertie is a Socialist maybe...

What's your point? Are you seriously saying it's okay if FF are mafia because FG/Lab are Natzi/communist respectively?

Your entire post in choc full of sensationalist slurs and then tries to play the poor mouth on behalf of innocent FF who don't seem to be left or right at all.
I put it to you, there are no innocent Fianna Fail people. It's a myth. Can you name one person in Fianna Fail who is oblivious to the corruption within? Guilt by association. If a person does not want to be slurred in any way, they should not belong to rotten organisations.

thats downright wrong and stupid. you honestly believe the majority of FF are crooked? there isnt a :rolleyes: big enough for that tbh

Wicklowrider

scr123 wrote: »

Would someone please identify the FF mafia and collate specific charges against those named and would they then please head to nearest Garda Station and demand immediate investigation. If this task cannot be carried out would it not be better for people to shut up and get on with life instead of being obsessed about nothin

Am I the only person who remembers members of fianna fail losing court cases and the tax payer ( TV licence payer) taking up the tab?

Do fianna fail really not know when to stop digging? Do they really want to find out exactly how far they can push?

thebman

aDeener wrote: »

thats downright wrong and stupid. you honestly believe the majority of FF are crooked? there isnt a :rolleyes: big enough for that tbh

Not necessarily crooked themselves but stupid enough to stand behind those who are.

Bertie, Cooper and the response is always the same, they get elected don't they which is all FF care about.

Screw ethics, as long as we have power who gives a fook!

That is its problem, that is what the people see, that is what needs reforming!

FF members can continue to live in denial but this is the average Joe's opinion of the party and has been for some time. Even when things were good this was the opinion but most people didin't care as long as the economy grew and they felt secure in their jobs.

Now FF are seeing what the people really think of them and they are in denial.

Shea O'Meara

aDeener wrote: »

thats downright wrong and stupid. you honestly believe the majority of FF are crooked? there isnt a :rolleyes: big enough for that tbh

Yes. Corrupt or turning a blind eye.

Rosahane

aDeener wrote: »

thats downright wrong and stupid. you honestly believe the majority of FF are crooked? there isnt a :rolleyes: big enough for that tbh

Question. Why do the majority of people join political parties like FG, Labour, the Greens and even SF?
Answer. Because they feel that they can make some contribution to society or further a political or social agenda.

Question. Why do the majority of people join FF?
Answer. To further their own ambitions or feather their own nest.

AckwelFoley

Rosahane wrote: »

Question. Why do the majority of people join FF?
Answer. To further their own ambitions or feather their own nest.

How can you know this?

Give me proof that the Majority as you claim are corrupt.

aDeener

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Yes. Corrupt or turning a blind eye.

that is one huge statement to make. what is it based on?

Liam Byrne

aDeener wrote: »

that is one huge statement to make. what is it based on?

The fact that they vote confidence in con-men might be a strong indication that they "turn a blind eye", or even condone corruption, as would the fact that most of those "found out" have been at the highest levels of the organisation, no ?

Two party leaders under investigation at tribunals (one died before justice was done); one of these yet to be judged but without a tax clearance cert, the other implicated in a phone-tapping scandal
One former high-level minister currently in jail for corruption
Another killed in a car crash while under investigation
A Ceann Comhairle found out and disgraced
A Mayo TD brought back into the fold one her high-profile scandal died down
A former Minister for Finance highlighted as having a dodgy mortgage
A Minister disgraced for slandering another public representative
A Taoiseach-appointed Senator under investigation for unwarranted expenses

....and those are just off the top of my head.

Wide Road

snyper wrote: »

How can you know this?

Give me proof that the Majority as you claim are corrupt.

Anyone???

Trotter

oscarBravo wrote: »

So where should I go to find a picture of the queen...........?

Irish Times / Indo in the Autumn should do it.. When she's shaking Brian Cowen's hand at the start of the state visit. Thats if he's still the taoiseach.

Shea O'Meara

aDeener wrote: »

that is one huge statement to make. what is it based on?

The fact that there is a history of systemic corruption within the party, (which was founded by a fraudster of low caliber) and I believe will continue as long as it exists as an entity.
At this point I believe the current crew will in time be shown to have some major fraudsters within their ranks (apart from the ones we already know about) because that is the nature of the party. Those who are not first hand commiting fraud against us are at best enablers, which in my view make them corrupt also.
If you are aware of the history of this party and it's present how can you, in good civil conscience, become or remain a member unless you're okay with it?
I hear the argument that most grass roots members are good folk, which is a cop out in my view as they support the leading lights of the party, the snake oil salesmen.

Wide Road

snyper wrote: »

How can you know this?

Give me proof that the Majority as you claim are corrupt.

Shea, give us the proof.

thebman

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

The fact that there is a history of systemic corruption within the party, (which was founded by a fraudster of low caliber) and I believe will continue as long as it exists as an entity.
At this point I believe the current crew will in time be shown to have some major fraudsters within their ranks (apart from the ones we already know about) because that is the nature of the party. Those who are not first hand commiting fraud against us are at best enablers, which in my view make them corrupt also.
If you are aware of the history of this party and it's present how can you, in good civil conscience, become or remain a member unless you're okay with it?
I hear the argument that most grass roots members are good folk, which is a cop out in my view as they support the leading lights of the party, the snake oil salesmen.

What upsets me most about FF is that I think the people in it think they are genuinely doing nothing wrong

Shea O'Meara

Wide Road wrote: »

Shea, give us the proof.

As I'm called out;
DeValera, defrauded Irish people and their decendants on an international basis under the guise of patriotism. Please see the Irish Press shares...the 'A' shares, little more than receipts, for the public, the 'B' actual shares kept for him and his. FACT. He defrauded Irish people across the globe on the basis of nationalism and supporting our own only to fill his own pockets and that of his family tree. Scum bag.
You've Haughey, (he had off-shore accounts, not in his wardrobe) Flynn, Cooper-Flynn, Burke, Lawlor, O'Donoghue, O'Dea... Just a sample of the fraudsters and liars within.
Seriously, I'm suprised you need ask.
I wait with baited breath on Ahern, (who is laughing at you and I by the way) with luck we'll have the cop on to begin jailing these anti-Irish turds. By which I mean they have no feeling or loyalty for you and I, and why would they unless there's something in it for them?

freewheeler

Wide Road wrote: »

Anyone???

Unfortunately none are so blind as those who dont want to see....There is MORE than enough evidence out there and you wont have to look very far to find it, the problem is that people like you don't want to believe that your heroes are nothing more than corrupt traitors who have sold this country down the river! My only solace is that they will at least get whats coming to them in the (hopefully soon) next general election

Rosahane

snyper wrote: »

How can you know this?

Give me proof that the Majority as you claim are corrupt.

It's a matter of public record in the main!

Every FF administration from Dev's onwards has been the subject of well documented instances of cronyism and corruption. Other posters have outlined just some of the prominent cases involving Gov Ministers in just the current and previous FF administrations. We could go back through every administration and do the same - anybody remenber TACA;)

The newspaper archives are littered with instances of other FF public representatives, members and friends engaging in corrupt practices to further their finances. The response from the FF party has always been to close ranks, deny, lie and cover up. Instances of corruption or unethical practices by members of the other political parties has invariably resulted in swift expulsion.

Membership or support of FF has, over the years been pretty much a prerequisite for favoured treatment when it came to handing out public funds, lands (Land Commission) or pensions.

Do I smell coffee:D

LostinBlanch

scr123 wrote: »

Would someone please identify the FF mafia and collate specific charges against those named and would they then please head to nearest Garda Station and demand immediate investigation. If this task cannot be carried out would it not be better for people to shut up and get on with life instead of being obsessed about nothing.
Maybe they might instead take the task of finding out why so many members of Dail Eareann over recent decades have sat in the chamber collecting many millions of euro playing the mickey mouse role of opposition to the nearly, through no fault of their own, permanent government of FF

SCR123 why all your posts read as if they are scripted by headquarters?

AckwelFoley

Rosahane wrote: »

It's a matter of public record in the main!

Every FF administration from Dev's onwards has been the subject of well documented instances of cronyism and corruption.

Really? Show me where the entire FF party or "administration" has been subject of investigation since the foundation of the state

Liam Byrne

snyper wrote: »

Really? Show me where the entire FF party or "administration" has been subject of investigation since the foundation of the state

No-one's saying that the entire FF party has been directly corrupt.

What is common knowledge is that significant high-level members have been, and that those in the party supported those corrupt members.

So the members (and the party as a hole) is "guilty" of collusion and being an accessory that facilitates corruption.

Wide Road

freewheeler wrote: »

Unfortunately none are so blind as those who dont want to see....There is MORE than enough evidence out there and you wont have to look very far to find it, the problem is that people like you don't want to believe that your heroes are nothing more than corrupt traitors who have sold this country down the river! My only solace is that they will at least get whats coming to them in the (hopefully soon) next general election

Heroes! Who said they are my heroes? Are you in the guessing game? Why not deal with facts rather than your guessing game? How many corrupt politicians make up a corrupt party? Is it 1, 10, 20 or more? Is it because you and others think that their own parties are so squekly clean. There has been questions asked on this site about Sean Barretts affairs. Nobody as far as I can remember have answered them. Why? Is Ml Noonan corrupt due to his time as Minister? How did Ml Lowry pay off the FG party debt? Why did Enda change the FG policy on party donations? Most of these questions have been asked on different threads yet are not yet answered. Why? People here prefer to go back to Devs time, for some crazy reason. God knows what is going on in their heads. Unlike others, I won't guess. Would you like to?

freewheeler

Wide Road wrote: »

Heroes! Who said they are my heroes? Are you in the guessing game? Why not deal with facts rather than your guessing game? How many corrupt politicians make up a corrupt party? Is it 1, 10, 20 or more? Is it because you and others think that their own parties are so squekly clean. There has been questions asked on this site about Sean Barretts affairs. Nobody as far as I can remember have answered them. Why? Is Ml Noonan corrupt due to his time as Minister? How did Ml Lowry pay off the FG party debt? Why did Enda change the FG policy on party donations? Most of these questions have been asked on different threads yet are not yet answered. Why? People here prefer to go back to Devs time, for some crazy reason. God knows what is going on in their heads. Unlike others, I won't guess. Would you like to?

The point being made (that you choose to ignore) is that FF is now and always has been rotten to the core..how many examples do you need exactly? They have proved on occasions too numerous to mention where there interests lie..and its with those who line their pockets.
Therefore i think that the mafia comparisons are quite apt actually..as a matter of fact i think FF could teach La Cosa Nostra a thing or too...

Wide Road

freewheeler wrote: »

The point being made (that you choose to ignore) is that FF is now and always has been rotten to the core..how many examples do you need exactly? They have proved on occasions too numerous to mention where there interests lie..and its with those who line their pockets.
Therefore i think that the mafia comparisons are quite apt actually..as a matter of fact i think FF could teach La Cosa Nostra a thing or too...

Lazy reply. Read again before you post please. I know it might take a while but read again and answer SVP.

thebman

Wide Road wrote: »

Heroes! Who said they are my heroes? Are you in the guessing game? Why not deal with facts rather than your guessing game? How many corrupt politicians make up a corrupt party? Is it 1, 10, 20 or more? Is it because you and others think that their own parties are so squekly clean. There has been questions asked on this site about Sean Barretts affairs. Nobody as far as I can remember have answered them. Why? Is Ml Noonan corrupt due to his time as Minister? How did Ml Lowry pay off the FG party debt? Why did Enda change the FG policy on party donations? Most of these questions have been asked on different threads yet are not yet answered. Why? People here prefer to go back to Devs time, for some crazy reason. God knows what is going on in their heads. Unlike others, I won't guess. Would you like to?

Who has their own party here or even is a member of one?

Few I would say. I know I'm not yet FF supporters always use this a reason to dismiss any criticism. yes FF are seen as more corrupt and power corrupts and they have had it for longer so you can argue you should expect to see more corruption in the party.

However, I as a youngish person who is becoming more interested in politics expects better from my government and the biggest party in the state than what I see from FF.

They consistently back people with questionable ethics, morales and backgrounds and those found to be just in the wrong!

They continue to not implement policy for higher standards in our government.

Maybe the opposition would be just was bad or worse but you at this point, fook it, I'll give them a go as its either that or lose all faith in the republic as it seems corrupt to its core.