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150+ killings by British soldiers in NI never fully investigated
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You miss my point.Well, no its not the same. We are talking about killings that were not investigated properly, and afaik, they would not be covered by the GFA.
The GFA is the only game in town.
It provided for the mass release on licence of mass murderers when they would otherwise not be entitled to such a release.
Their victims families had to move on and put up with that.
Do you seriously think dredging up police or army murders from the other side from 30 years ago is moving on?
It's not. It's lancing a healed boil.
It's the kind of codology that some unionists were up to prior to SF going into NI government... ie there was always something new brought up when something else is settled.
Theres a lot of hurt on all sides in NI still,living hurt that people are prepared and have decided to move on as best they can from.
Delving into this shoite will only serve to open sores from the unionist side involving all the IRA's wrongs.
The people of Ireland have moved on.
I suspect all you'll get in response to this is,ah yes that was terrible..If it happens again,we'll deal with it but we've moved on from the past of 30 years ago.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »It provided for the mass release on licence of mass murderers when they would otherwise not be entitled to such a release.
Their victims families had to move on and put up with that.
Do you seriously think dredging up police or army murders from the other side from 30 years ago is moving on?
It's not. It's lancing a healed boil.
Delving into this shoite will only serve to open sores from the unionist side involving all the IRA's wrongs.
The people of Ireland have moved on.
I suspect all you'll get in response to this is,ah yes that was terrible..If it happens again,we'll deal with it but we've moved on from the past of 30 years ago.
You see, you are equating the IRA with the British military. I think Unionists and the British people would be insulted by that.
We know how bad Republican and Loyalist murders were which were thoroughly investigated and the guilty were jailed, served time etc.
The other victims of state killings never had that opportunity. Their killers had a handsome career in the security forces without a stain on their character, they never served a day in jail nor were convicted of anything.
The victims of soldiers are not inferior to victims of paramilitaries, they suffered alot too and need to be listened to and that helps in the healing process.0 -
All of the people killed were either planning to launch rockets into great britain or were being used as human shields by the terrorists. The British soldiers obviously did their best to protect civilian lives and the internal enquires into the incidents cleared them of any wrong doing.
This should obviously put an end to the discussion, imo.0 -
All of the people killed were either planning to launch rockets into great britain or were being used as human shields by the terrorists. The British soldiers obviously did their best to protect civilian lives and the internal enquires into the incidents cleared them of any wrong doing.
This should obviously put an end to the discussion, imo.
Well I never... You're supposed to be dead Lord Widgery!0 -
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Poccington wrote: »Well I never... You're supposed to be dead Lord Widgery!
The problem with internet posting is the lack of facial expression. Especially when employing sarcasm.0 -
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Oh really? All murders by loyalists and republicans were thoroughly investigated?not a single one ever missed or inconclusively investigated?You see, you are equating the IRA with the British military. I think Unionists and the British people would be insulted by that.
We know how bad Republican and Loyalist murders were which were thoroughly investigated and the guilty were jailed, served time etc.
Thats news to me.
You could say that but then you could also say that Enough is enough for I'm sure unionists could cite many uninvestigated on inconclusively investigated murders suspected by terrorists.The other victims of state killings never had that opportunity. Their killers had a handsome career in the security forces without a stain on their character, they never served a day in jail nor were convicted of anything.
No one said they were inferior.The victims of soldiers are not inferior to victims of paramilitaries, they suffered alot too and need to be listened to and that helps in the healing process.
What was said was move on.No need for the endless dredging of the grief stories.
Forwards not backwards.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »You miss my point.
The GFA is the only game in town.
It provided for the mass release on licence of mass murderers when they would otherwise not be entitled to such a release.
Their victims families had to move on and put up with that.
Do you seriously think dredging up police or army murders from the other side from 30 years ago is moving on?
It's not. It's lancing a healed boil.
It's the kind of codology that some unionists were up to prior to SF going into NI government... ie there was always something new brought up when something else is settled.
Theres a lot of hurt on all sides in NI still,living hurt that people are prepared and have decided to move on as best they can from.
Delving into this shoite will only serve to open sores from the unionist side involving all the IRA's wrongs.
The people of Ireland have moved on.
I suspect all you'll get in response to this is,ah yes that was terrible..If it happens again,we'll deal with it but we've moved on from the past of 30 years ago.
World of difference between terrorists, and the army of a democracy. Also, one groups crimes were investigated and who did what was found out, in the case of British forces it did not happen, as as I said before, they are not covered by the GFA, to the best of my knowledge. Personally, investigating these crimes, and finding out what happened will help the healing process, as opposed to the current white wash of one sides crimes. People need to know what happened to there loved ones, and they deserve closure.0 -
You make the allegation, you provide the proof.Deleted User wrote: »Oh really? All murders by loyalists and republicans were thoroughly investigated?not a single one ever missed or inconclusively investigated?
Since you're claiming some Loyalist and Republican murders went un-investigated, care to cite an example?
Those crimes that were as you say "inconclusively investigated" are NOT the same thing as being un-investigated.
Just because the trail of evidence didn't lead to a prosecution does not mean it wasn't investigated.0 -
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Go ask Willy McCrea.
He was crying recently in Westminister about it,the day of the Bloody sunday apology.
It will in it's árse help the healing process.Wes wrote:World of difference between terrorists, and the army of a democracy. Also, one groups crimes were investigated and who did what was found out, in the case of British forces it did not happen, as as I said before, they are not covered by the GFA, to the best of my knowledge. Personally, investigating these crimes, and finding out what happened will help the healing process, as opposed to the current white wash of one sides crimes. People need to know what happened to there loved ones, and they deserve closure.
It will drag up old resentments in what is a thinly veiled peace.
We'd be back to the tribal society up there again with everything revisited.
Mind you I have the cop on to know that politicians will be moving on and not lighting old fires like ye are in this thread.
Pointless me arguing with ye in that case.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »It will in it's árse help the healing process.
It will drag up old resentments in what is a thinly veiled peace.
We'd be back to the tribal society up there again with everything revisited.
Mind you I have the cop on to know that politicians will be moving on and not lighting old fires like ye are in this thread.
Pointless me arguing with ye in that case.
Oh please, if this it is done properly, then it won't cause problems, and will help people heal. I think the truth of what was done by British forces needs to come out, and yes if need be, there should be prosecutions as well. Letting this stuff go, just creates a culture where British armed forces know they can get away with killing civilians which should not be allowed.
Personally, I believe the victims and there families need justice, and there really should be no excuses to avoid it.0 -
Now come off it,something that happened 30 years ago in awfull circumstances fosters a culture today that they can get away with it?Oh please, if this it is done properly, then it won't cause problems, and will help people heal. I think the truth of what was done by British forces needs to come out, and yes if need be, there should be prosecutions as well. Letting this stuff go, just creates a culture where British armed forces know they can get away with killing civilians which should not be allowed.
Thats seriously pushing it.
For a start,at the height of the IRA bombing of Britain,there were marches shouting "paddies out" in Britain and understandably so.
Those were the people and that was their mood voting for the politicians that controlled the British army then.
That democracy having had their blood shed by the IRA in the home counties were baying for our own blood even though most of us wanted nothing to do with it.
Theres a lot of blame attached to paramilitaries for stoking up that attention.
But I in common with most don't want to know about that anymore and certainly don't want money spent on it.
Personally I have a feeling I'm on solid ground when I say I believe theres no political will for that North or south because the vast majority of people have moved on Thankfully.Personally, I believe the victims and there families need justice, and there really should be no excuses to avoid it.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Now come off it,something that happened 30 years ago in awfull circumstances fosters a culture today that they can get away with it?
Thats seriously pushing it.
No actually it isn't. Look at the various cases of British complicity with torture in 3rd party countries for example.Deleted User wrote: »For a start,at the height of the IRA bombing of Britain,there were marches shouting "paddies out" in Britain and understandably so.
Those were the people and that was their mood voting for the politicians that controlled the British army then.
That democracy having had their blood shed by the IRA in the home counties were baying for our own blood even though most of us wanted nothing to do with it.
Theres a lot of blame attached to paramilitaries for stoking up that attention.
But I in common with most don't want to know about that anymore and certainly don't want money spent on it.
Personally I have a feeling I'm on solid ground when I say I believe theres no political will for that North or south because the vast majority of people have moved on Thankfully.
Quite a lot of what you said is rather irrelevant, and I can't really say how people on either side of the border feel concerning this, as I simply haven't a clue. Still, I fail to see how getting away with something for 30 years doesn't mean they shouldn't be prosecuted now. If people were murdered there needs to be prosecution imho. There is no real excuse for there not to be any, and I agree people have moved on, and as such I don't believe the prosecutions will cause any problems. If a crime was committed then justice needs to be served.0 -
World of difference between terrorists, and the army of a democracy. Also, one groups crimes were investigated and who did what was found out, in the case of British forces it did not happen, as as I said before, they are not covered by the GFA, to the best of my knowledge. Personally, investigating these crimes, and finding out what happened will help the healing process, as opposed to the current white wash of one sides crimes. People need to know what happened to there loved ones, and they deserve closure.
No there isn't, 360 degree war is no longer fought with the Army of a democracy going around with their hands tied behind their backs.
That may have been the case before 1946, but not now, buddy.
Things have changed, haven't you noticed?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »It will in it's árse help the healing process.
It will drag up old resentments in what is a thinly veiled peace.
There is no healing when a sovereign govt does not own up to its dirty past. It took 38yrs for them to admit Bloody Sunday. It shouldn't take another 38yrs to own to to their wrongs.
In fact, it would restore confidence and respect in the British establishment if they own up to what their soldiers did in these multiple killings of civilians.Deleted User wrote:I'm sure unionists could cite many uninvestigated on inconclusively investigated murders suspected by terrorists.
Well, what are these uninvestigated ones?Deleted User wrote:Now come off it,something that happened 30 years ago in awfull circumstances fosters a culture today that they can get away with it?
Not just 1970-1973. It went on up to the 90s. No accountability at all from the 'forces of law and order'.0 -
No actually it isn't. Look at the various cases of British complicity with torture in 3rd party countries for example.
Quite a lot of what you said is rather irrelevant, and I can't really say how people on either side of the border feel concerning this, as I simply haven't a clue. Still, I fail to see how getting away with something for 30 years doesn't mean they shouldn't be prosecuted now. If people were murdered there needs to be prosecution imho. There is no real excuse for there not to be any, and I agree people have moved on, and as such I don't believe the prosecutions will cause any problems. If a crime was committed then justice needs to be served.
Totally agree with that.
Even if a trial were to declare extenuating circumstances, heat of the moment or whatever, or even some minor punishment like having their army pensions taken away, at least that would be better than stating on one hand that murders were committed, and on the other allowing those murders to go unpunished.
What's that about justice not only being done, but being seen to be done?0 -
With Respect,I can say that in my opinion what you are pointing out displays a basic lack of understanding of the realpolitik of NI and how we got to where we are today.No actually it isn't. Look at the various cases of British complicity with torture in 3rd party countries for example.
Quite a lot of what you said is rather irrelevant, and I can't really say how people on either side of the border feel concerning this, as I simply haven't a clue. Still, I fail to see how getting away with something for 30 years doesn't mean they shouldn't be prosecuted now. If people were murdered there needs to be prosecution imho. There is no real excuse for there not to be any, and I agree people have moved on, and as such I don't believe the prosecutions will cause any problems. If a crime was committed then justice needs to be served.
It's not a question of that.It's a question of proportionality.Gurramok wrote:There is no healing when a sovereign govt does not own up to its dirty past. It took 38yrs for them to admit Bloody Sunday. It shouldn't take another 38yrs to own to to their wrongs.
The point of knowing a situation has been settled and revisiting issues is unhelpful in the wider sense.
I've been living in this country long enough and so have many of our older politicians to know when to call time on dredging through what we know to have happened.In fact, it would restore confidence and respect in the British establishment if they own up to what their soldiers did in these multiple killings of civilians.
We call time on it in the name of leaving things be.
Some people of course never leave things be..theres always something else..
Thank fully for the rest of us,those are a tinier and tinier minority.
So did the disdain of the UK electorate towards the IRA because they were blowing up children in warrington at the end of it and dragging their heels at condemning Omagh and the like.Not just 1970-1973. It went on up to the 90s. No accountability at all from the 'forces of law and order'.
Like it or not ,human nature being as it is,the masters of the fight against that were the GB voting public and the home counties voted in droves for people that may have turned a blind eye to fighting fire with fire and dirtily.
I and I'm sure I'm in plenty company here,think enough responsibility for that mindset being born lies with the IRA stoking up what is after all in human nature and that is anger.
Angry people can do the most irrational things.
We all know who and what made the Brits angry for nigh on 30 years don't we.
So that in a nutshell is why it ain't happening.0 -
Deleted User wrote: ».It's not a question of that.It's a question of proportionality.
Explain?Deleted User wrote: »The point of knowing a situation has been settled and revisiting issues is unhelpful in the wider sense. I've been living in this country long enough and so have many of our older politicians to know when to call time on dredging through what we know to have happened.
We call time on it in the name of leaving things be.
Some people of course never leave things be..theres always something else..
Thank fully for the rest of us,those are a tinier and tinier minority.
Eh no. Who is this tiny minority? The relatives seeking justice? :eek:Deleted User wrote: »So did the disdain of the UK electorate towards the IRA because they were blowing up children in warrington at the end of it and dragging their heels at condemning Omagh and the like.
Like it or not ,human nature being as it is,the masters of the fight against that were the GB voting public and the home counties voted in droves for people that may have turned a blind eye to fighting fire with fire and dirtily.
I and I'm sure I'm in plenty company here,think enough responsibility for that mindset being born lies with the IRA stoking up what is after all in human nature and that is anger.
Angry people can do the most irrational things.
We all know who and what made the Brits angry for nigh on 30 years don't we.
So that in a nutshell is why it ain't happening.
Killing 150+ people between 1970-1973 without any justice lead to a good few joining paramilitary organisations at that time. Of course some of these went on those bombing campaigns you mentioned which was utterly disgraceful which in turn enraged the English public who were(and are) totally unaware what their army did in NI which played their part in stoking up the violent feelings against them and their army in the first place.
If there was accountability at the time to say 'yes, your child was shot by one of our soldiers and we are sorry for it', you can bet the likes of the IRA would never have been as strong as they became.0 -
what I meant about a sense of proportion? I meant a tiny amount of people relative to the thousands of hurt who could have and could still cause an awfull fuss if they wanted to,who have decided things are settled versus the tiny few who just want more and more and more.Explain?
Yes I'm afraid.Eh no. Who is this tiny minority? The relatives seeking justice? :eek:
We're sorry for them but we're not going there.
The same period saw 500 soldiers killed.
Killing 150+ people between 1970-1973 without any justice lead to a good few joining paramilitary organisations at that time. Of course some of these went on those bombing campaigns you mentioned which was utterly disgraceful which in turn enraged the English public who were(and are) totally unaware what their army did in NI which played their part in stoking up the violent feelings against them and their army in the first place.
If there was accountability at the time to say 'yes, your child was shot by one of our soldiers and we are sorry for it', you can bet the likes of the IRA would never have been as strong as they became.
So really my anger point and other points from the last post apply.0 -
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FlutterinBantam wrote: »No there isn't, 360 degree war is no longer fought with the Army of a democracy going around with their hands tied behind their backs.
That may have been the case before 1946, but not now, buddy.
Things have changed, haven't you noticed?
Sorry, I don't accept such excuses. Murder is murder, just because someone does it in a uniform doesn't change that fact. If you act like a terrorist, then guess what, you are a terrorist. If, some are above the law, then the law is worthless.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »what I meant about a sense of proportion? I meant a tiny amount of people relative to the thousands of hurt who could have and could still cause an awfull fuss if they wanted to,who have decided things are settled versus the tiny few who just want more and more and more.
A few hundred killed or injured by the agents a government is not a tiny number.
Those thousands of hurt you mention(I assume you mean paramilitary victims) have had their cases thoroughly investigated by the RUC and from that some a fair few people were jailed for it.
The victims of state killings did not get any of their cases investigated.Deleted User wrote: »Yes I'm afraid.
We're sorry for them but we're not going there.
They do count. They are a section of victims where nothing was done to help them. They were just not cared about.Deleted User wrote: »The same period saw 500 soldiers killed.
So really my anger point and other points from the last post apply.
And each and every one of those 500 soldier deaths were thoroughly investigated by the RUC leading to criminal convictions.
Spot the difference here?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »With Respect,I can say that in my opinion what you are pointing out displays a basic lack of understanding of the realpolitik of NI and how we got to where we are today.
I am well aware of how we got here, and tbh if you believe that any prosecutions would cause problems, then I don't see how you can claim people have moved on then. If people have moved on then this shouldn't be an issue, just a simple matter of justice for those killed. If it is an issue, then people haven't really moved on, just trying to sweep things under the carpet in the hopes it goes away. i think it far more sensible to not to do so, and get all the crap out in the open and sort it out.0 -
FlutterinBantam wrote: »No there isn't, 360 degree war is no longer fought with the Army of a democracy going around with their hands tied behind their backs.
That may have been the case before 1946, but not now, buddy.
Things have changed, haven't you noticed?
Things have changed, haven't you noticed?
that last part i am sure is true , British army is probably as busy killing innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan as it did in all wars it ever fought0 -
Thats lunacy in my view and unpopular.I am well aware of how we got here, and tbh if you believe that any prosecutions would cause problems, then I don't see how you can claim people have moved on then. If people have moved on then this shouldn't be an issue, just a simple matter of justice for those killed. If it is an issue, then people haven't really moved on, just trying to sweep things under the carpet in the hopes it goes away. i think it far more sensible to not to do so, and get all the crap out in the open and sort it out.
As I said earlier,believer in pragmatism that I am,such nit picking is a source of unsettlement to an uneasy peace in a protracted problem and theres going to be no political will to go down that road sorry.
I'm not as ofay with everyone of the soldier deaths as you are or what was done about them as you are saying you are.gurramok wrote:And each and every one of those 500 soldier deaths were thoroughly investigated by the RUC leading to criminal convictions.
Spot the difference here?
I've not disagreed as to there not having been an investigation of the 150 or so you bring up.
I've accepted those as your facts.
I'm just saying to you why I think the mind set then led to that and why the mindset now is bygones are bygones.0 -
Iv no evidence of course but I think its a fairly reasonable assumption when you look at the time period being discussed in this thread (1970's) that there is a good chance some of those young British soldiers serving in N. Ireland at the time went on to rise through the ranks during the 80's & 90's and probably occupied positions of real influence in strategic terms within the British military post 9/11.
My point being that it was the British army that hounded the Blair government in to extending their limited mission in Afghanistan to include Helmand Province.
The British Army were chomping at the bit to get at the Taliban on their home turf.
The chaos that decision has caused will take years to calm (if ever) and cost many thousands of innocent Afghan lives.
If nothing else a full enquiry into the actions of the British Army in N. Ireland migh help remove some of the romantic notions a section of the British population still hold about the role their armed forces play in world affairs.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Now come off it,something that happened 30 years ago in awfull circumstances fosters a culture today that they can get away with it?
Thats seriously pushing it.
For a start,at the height of the IRA bombing of Britain,there were marches shouting "paddies out" in Britain and understandably so.
Those were the people and that was their mood voting for the politicians that controlled the British army then.
That democracy having had their blood shed by the IRA in the home counties were baying for our own blood even though most of us wanted nothing to do with it.
Theres a lot of blame attached to paramilitaries for stoking up that attention.
But I in common with most don't want to know about that anymore and certainly don't want money spent on it.
Personally I have a feeling I'm on solid ground when I say I believe theres no political will for that North or south because the vast majority of people have moved on Thankfully.
hold on a second, how the fuck is that understandable? would it be understandable if there were marches in london after the 2006 al-queda bombings saying "sand n**gers out" or some such racial slur against muslims?? you cant smear an entire group of people over the actions of a militant section0 -
Context..hold on a second, how the fuck is that understandable? would it be understandable if there were marches in london after the 2006 al-queda bombings saying "sand n**gers out" or some such racial slur against muslims?? you cant smear an entire group of people over the actions of a militant section
Political correctness has taken over since then.
30 years ago if Al Queda were bombing London,yes there would have been marches to get the paki's out.
Times and attitudes have moved on thankfully.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I'm not as ofay with everyone of the soldier deaths as you are or what was done about them as you are saying you are.
I've not disagreed as to there not having been an investigation of the 150 or so you bring up.
I've accepted those as your facts.
I'm just saying to you why I think the mind set then led to that and why the mindset now is bygones are bygones.
Yes the mindset has changed, we have peace now but Berlin style walls still stand between communities. Guess tension is the word that has left the arena.
We are in a healing era I believe. A Truth & Reconciliation commission would help that healing among nationalists who are still hurt that a govt who rules them has not admitted its wrongs in the numerous killings perpetrated by the govts servants on their community.
On the subject of bygones, do you oppose the HET?0 -
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Oldyouth, remember promise to self. Do not post on this topic when drunk
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