Is Israel a terrorist state?

Selkies · 31-05-2010 1:10pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Becasue they had all been rounded up. So does the end not justify the means then? Or let me guess, its somehow different when Israel breaches civil liberties at will?

No they didn't...

The allies rounded up Germans in Britain and Japanese in the States.

It's what happens during a war.

wes · 31-05-2010 1:10pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

You state the original justification for the tagging of Jews and others. The original justification Israel has is kids, little innocent kids getting blown up on busses by suicide bombers. And yes, Israel has killed kids in Palestine. But the difference I think is that Israel has proven it will talk to moderates for peace. Hamas is not moderate.

As for taking out aid convoys and others, yes, they did. Bombing civilians and other noncombat groups to drive them into the logistical supply lines of advancing armies was one such tactic used.

You seem to be ignoring the constant land theft, for some odd reason. Which, shows you claims of Israel wanting peace to be false imho.

Also, Israel has killed children, and there have been recent reports of the IDF sexually abusing them as well. There is no excuse for this imho.

itsonlywords · 31-05-2010 1:11pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

Are you claiming that Hamas does not fire rockets into Israel?

Hamas defends itself same as our nationalists defended themselves in the North of Ireland against the murdering British.Israelis are similar to the british forces who murdered Irish citizens and are active terrorists.

OhNoYouDidn't · 31-05-2010 1:11pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

You state the original justification for the tagging of Jews and others. The original justification Israel has is kids, little innocent kids getting blown up on busses by suicide bombers. And yes, Israel has killed kids in Palestine. But the difference I think is that Israel has proven it will talk to moderates for peace. Hamas is not moderate.

They used emotive hysteronics to justify collective punishment of civilians based on their race, so do you.

Nijmegen wrote: »

As for taking out aid convoys and others, yes, they did. Bombing civilians and other noncombat groups to drive them into the logistical supply lines of advancing armies was one such tactic used.

So not aid then.

OhNoYouDidn't · 31-05-2010 1:12pm

Selkies wrote: »

The allies rounded up Germans in Britain and Japanese in the States.

It's what happens during a war.

Are they at war?

Selkies · 31-05-2010 1:18pm

Regarding Hamas being democratically elected
No one can be elected in the territories without having their own private army.

Having said that groups like Hamas will always get a large amount as long as the only opposition are corrupt and people are afraid.

Which is what this war is about, people are afraid of dying, losing their homes and of similar stuff happening to their children. People are low on hope and are gripping the idea that if they fight then they may have a future.
Few are willing to try anything else because any gamble they make is all in.

We can all sit in our arm chairs and say how awful what is being done over there is but we don't have to look that far back into our own history to find what awful things we were capable of once the fear set in.

Deep Easterly · 31-05-2010 1:21pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

You state the original justification for the tagging of Jews and others. The original justification Israel has is kids, little innocent kids getting blown up on busses by suicide bombers. And yes, Israel has killed kids in Palestine. But the difference I think is that Israel has proven it will talk to moderates for peace. Hamas is not moderate.

Any group that kills innocent people and kids is not moderate. How you can justify Isreal killing children, which they do so with alarming frequency, simply because it is willing to talk to 'moderates' is really beyond my realm of understanding.

Selkies · 31-05-2010 1:22pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Are they at war?

It's a new kind of war, there isn't the illusion of nobility about it, no two armies marching toward each other firing in rows.
Suicide bombers, rocket attacks, helicopter assassinations, blockades...

oncevotedff · 31-05-2010 1:22pm

Euroland wrote: »

They conduct genocide in Palestine for decades, they attack all their neighbors, they forge our Irish passports to kill foreign politicians, and now they kill innocent activists.

So, I would like to organize a poll on the question:

Is Israel a terrorist state?

Btw, I would like to know your views on the following questions:

Should we expel Israeli diplomats from Ireland (as Australia and UK did) for forging our passports?

Should the UN impose sanctions on Israel for avoiding declaring its multiple nuclear armaments?

Should the UN impose sanctions on Israel for the recent attack on peaceful activists?

By your criteria every state is a terrorist state including Ireland.

Israel kills civilians, there's a novelty.

OhNoYouDidn't · 31-05-2010 1:24pm

Selkies wrote: »

It's a new kind of war, there isn't the illusion of nobility about it, no two armies marching toward each other firing in rows.
Suicide bombers, rocket attacks, helicopter assassinations, blockades...

So thats a no then.

danbohan · 31-05-2010 1:30pm

Euroland wrote: »

You are an Israeli, working for the Israeli propaganda machine, and we can easily notice this.

Nijmegen wrote: »

This thread seems to be more a generalized look at Israel, no? We have other discussions for this specific incident.

The Israeli policy is "Israeli security and protecting Israeli lives above most other concerns."

If you lived beside the sea in a country that could be cut in half by tanks in a few short hours, your grandparents came out of concentration camps, your schoolbuses are a favourite target for suicide bombers and rockets habitually land randomly on your country, you'd probably not be as quick to condemn a strong military defence.[/QU a lot of peoples sympathy for the Jewish people from the holocaust is damaged by the actions of modern day Israel

wes · 31-05-2010 1:32pm

danbohan wrote: »

perhaps by their actions Israelis show us why their grandparents were in concentration camps

Comments like this are in no way helpful towards the discussion. They are wrong and hurtful. There is no need for this sort of thing.

Selkies · 31-05-2010 1:33pm

Deep Easterly wrote: »

Any group that kills innocent people and kids is not moderate. How you can justify Isreal killing children, which they do so with alarming frequency, simply because it is willing to talk to 'moderates' is really beyond my realm of understanding.

The death of children is always an emotional issue, the idea of my niece being caught by a stray shot makes my heart fail and my blood boil.

From my understanding of people, they have to be really warped before they will target children. I remember hearing a story about a suicide bomber calling off their mission because there were just children and the elderly in the shopping mall that was the target. Even those who are willing to throw away their lives still respect the lives of children, at least in this case.

Many of the idf and palestinians are battle fatigued, hardened to the point that they are barely recognisable as being emotionally human. I imagine some of them have stopped making the distinction between the combatants and civilians.

However I still believe that when children die, in the vast majority of cases it's not intentional. After all, many if not most of these fights happen in densely populated urban areas.

Selkies · 31-05-2010 1:35pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So thats a no then.

I think it is a war, how about you have a look at the definition for war and let me know what you think afterward.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/war

Selkies · 31-05-2010 1:41pm

danbohan wrote: »

perhaps by their actions Israelis show us why their grandparents were in concentration camps

Hey, seriously awesome post!
Not only did you imply that it's ok to make judgements about an entire race or nation of people but that the judgements you make justify genocide.

Nice work, oh and. White Power Brother! *nazi salutes*

danbohan · 31-05-2010 1:49pm

Selkies wrote: »

Hey, seriously awesome post!
Not only did you imply that it's ok to make judgements about an entire race or nation of people but that the judgements you make justify genocide.

Nice work, oh and. White Power Brother! *nazi salutes*

yes might not read well have edited , what i was trying to say is /QU a lot of peoples sympathy for the Jewish people from the holocaust is damaged by the actions of modern day Israel, as for Nazi the current Israeli regime has become very similar

itsonlywords · 31-05-2010 1:51pm

danbohan wrote: »

yes might not read well have edited , what i was trying to say is /QU a lot of peoples sympathy for the Jewish people from the holocaust is damaged by the actions of modern day Israel, as for Nazi the current Israeli regime has become very similar

Thats better. Was beginning to wonder.

digme · 31-05-2010 1:52pm

Euroland wrote: »

They conduct genocide in Palestine for decades, they attack all their neighbors, they forge our Irish passports to kill foreign politicians, and now they kill innocent activists.

So, I would like to organize a poll on the question:

Is Israel a terrorist state?

Btw, I would like to know your views on the following questions:

Should we expel Israeli diplomats from Ireland (as Australia and UK did) for forging our passports?

Should the UN impose sanctions on Israel for avoiding declaring its multiple nuclear armaments?

Should the UN impose sanctions on Israel for the recent attack on peaceful activists?

The un can't do anything and here's why,AMERICA

comeraghs · 31-05-2010 1:55pm

No.

Isreal takes necessary meausres to protect itself from dangerous enemys focused on its destruction and their mis-guided supporters in the champagne socialist parties.

Selkies · 31-05-2010 1:58pm

danbohan wrote: »

yes might not read well have edited , what i was trying to say is /QU a lot of peoples sympathy for the Jewish people from the holocaust is damaged by the actions of modern day Israel, as for Nazi the current Israeli regime has become very similar

Absolutely is has done damage to the sympathy given the Jewish people, however the Jewish people aren't responsible for the actions of the Israeli Government, that would be the Israeli people who voted for them.

I really hope that you are not a racist, for your sake at least, they aren't very popular these days.

Augmerson · 31-05-2010 1:58pm

Israel is definitely a terrorist state, they just murdered 10 people on a group of ships carrying humanitarian aid in international waters ffs. If they didn't have the US to back them up, they'd have to face the consequences, but since they do and have such a large group of people lobbying for their interests in American legislative area, they get away with it.

Selkies · 31-05-2010 2:04pm

comeraghs wrote: »

No.

Isreal takes necessary meausres to protect itself from dangerous enemys focused on its destruction and their mis-guided supporters in the champagne socialist parties.

It seems that Israel views everyone who isn't an israeli or an overt supporter as a threat. They are a nation gripped by fear striking out like a cornered animal.
They are a danger to all that are close to them.

And most of the leftist people you speak about while often not overly familiar with the realities of the situation mostly are just ardent supporters of the ideal that peace is achievable were it only given a chance.

Without a doubt I'd rather be a peacenik than live in Israel.

Japer · 31-05-2010 2:09pm

Nijmegen wrote: »

If you lived beside the sea in a country that could be cut in half by tanks in a few short hours, your grandparents came out of concentration camps, your schoolbuses are a favourite target for suicide bombers and rockets habitually land randomly on your country, you'd probably not be as quick to condemn a strong military defence.

+1. Especially when many in your neighbouring countries , a billion muslims, want to push you in to the sea / wipe you off the map.
The jews were too pacifist in their grandparents time ( not that in this country we helped them much then either ) ; they are right to defend themselves now.

itsonlywords · 31-05-2010 2:13pm

Japer wrote: »

+1. Especially when many in your neighbouring countries , a billion muslims, want to push you in to the sea / wipe you off the map.
The jews were too pacifist in their grandparents time ( not that in this country we helped them much then either ) ; they are right to defend themselves now.

Nonsense. Ireland did nothing wrong to Israel. They have injured one of our citizens and we should retaliate any way we can particularly by boycotting any Israeli goods. Hit them where it hurts. Send their diplomatic staff home like the Aussies did.Scumyy killers

Selkies · 31-05-2010 2:21pm

itsonlywords wrote: »

Nonsense. Ireland did nothing wrong to Israel. They have injured one of our citizens and we should retaliate any way we can particularly by boycotting any Israeli goods. Hit them where it hurts. Send their diplomatic staff home like the Aussies did.Scumyy killers

He may be referring to the ship full of Jewish refugees that were refused entry by Éamon de Valera during World War 2 because he felt it might upset the Nazis.
Understandable, we were terrified

wes · 31-05-2010 2:24pm

Japer wrote: »

+1. Especially when many in your neighbouring countries , a billion muslims, want to push you in to the sea / wipe you off the map.
The jews were too pacifist in their grandparents time ( not that in this country we helped them much then either ) ; they are right to defend themselves now.

Yawn, a nonsensical claim.

Israel has peace deals with Egypt and Jordan. The Arab league has offered full recognition and peace, in exchange for Israel returning to the 67 borders. To put it simply your claim is factually incorrect.

Also, Israels constant land theft is aggression, and not self defence.

itsonlywords · 31-05-2010 2:25pm

Selkies wrote: »

He may be referring to the ship full of Jewish refugees that were refused entry by Éamon de Valera during World War 2 because he felt it might upset the Nazis.
Understandable, we were terrified

Ahh ok yes if that is what he is on about. Yes we were right at that time to refuse entry as we may have been attacked. No point in applying restrospective guilt. I note that jewish people still try to pour guilt on all gentiles because of the holocaust. I had nothing to do with it as like 99.99% of people but still they rub our noses in it.Time they got over it.

Fr Tod Umptious · 31-05-2010 2:35pm

itsonlywords wrote: »

I had nothing to do with it as like 99.99% of people but still they rub our noses in it.Time they got over it.

True.

Time the Palestinians got over loosing their land too.

Selkies · 31-05-2010 2:39pm

itsonlywords wrote: »

Ahh ok yes if that is what he is on about. Yes we were right at that time to refuse entry as we may have been attacked. No point in applying restrospective guilt. I note that jewish people still try to pour guilt on all gentiles because of the holocaust. I had nothing to do with it as like 99.99% of people but still they rub our noses in it.Time they got over it.

I've met a lot of jews and none of them have tried to guilt trip me...

I don't think it was right for them to refuse the Jews entry. It made the Irish state as guilty as the nazi collaborators. I just said it was understandable, fear makes people do monsterous things.

Then again we did show preference to the British pilots who crash landed in Ireland by transporting them across the border into northern Ireland where as the Germans were simply arrested.

BlaasForRafa · 31-05-2010 2:56pm

wes wrote: »

Israel has peace deals with Egypt and Jordan. .

And those deals were only achieved after the Arabs attacked Israel unfortunately to find that Israel wasn't going to just roll over and die.