Is Israel a terrorist state?

Euroland

They conduct genocide in Palestine for decades, they attack all their neighbors, they forge our Irish passports to kill foreign politicians, and now they kill innocent activists.

So, I would like to organize a poll on the question:

Is Israel a terrorist state?



Btw, I would like to know your views on the following questions:

Should we expel Israeli diplomats from Ireland (as Australia and UK did) for forging our passports?

Should the UN impose sanctions on Israel for avoiding declaring its multiple nuclear armaments?

Should the UN impose sanctions on Israel for the recent attack on peaceful activists?

scr123

My condemnation of Israel is as strong as that of anyone else, its a failed entity that will never be at peace and its people will never be safe. However, its a sad fact that Israel has the means to protect itself long in to the forseeable future and only a nuclear attack can defeat such a highly prepared country.
As we all know the real victims are the Palestinian people with only 25% of its population in the workforce and political, economic and social deprivation facing the people forever.
I say its time the Palestinian people faced the ugly truth that they will never defeat the Israelis. I say its time the Palestinian people surrendered to this truth for the sake of its children and the future of the children. Its time the international community forced Israel and the Palestinian leaders to sit down and thrash out a solution that assimilates the Palestinians into Israel with guarantees of economic and human rights advancement.
Its offensive to hear the cheerleaders for the Palestinians offering nothing but permanent strife. Israel cannot be defeated and its time to face that awful fact

Bottle_of_Smoke

The word terrorist is bandied abotu so much these days its virtually lost all meaning.

Not a fan of Israel's actions but there's likely few states on the planet you wouldn't call a terrorist state for similar actions.

Pride Fighter

They are a Totalitarian regime that murders aid workers in International waters. They steal Irish passports to murder various people abroad.

I would not call them a terrorist state, but they are certainly an evil regime.

Nijmegen

Israel is a tiny country that has been under attack by arabs, from state-warfare to state-sponsored-terrorism to just plain terrorism, since the country was founded, with a large influx of Holocoust survivors.

Nothing we know of here can compare to that experience in shaping a mindset of national defence.

I don't agree with all that Israel does, but I do believe that the Israeli people have a right to be paranoid about their security. From invasions during national holidays to school busses blowing up, they've had it all.

They're no angels. But they get too much blame for the conflict.

mike65

Is this a rhetorical question?

Euroland

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Not a fan of Israel's actions but there's likely few states on the planet you wouldn't call a terrorist state for similar actions.

None of them would be such a coward as Israel is.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Euroland wrote: »

None of them would be such coward as Israel is.

Rather subjective comment. Surely you wouldn't deny the actions of the Irish republic toward the Catholic chuch isn't equally cowardly?

The British government in continually delaying the Saville report publication isn't cowardly?

The American government's actions regarding the most recent Iraqi war?

Ever read about Pakistan? Human rights abuses in Turkey/China?

Gurgle

Nijmegen wrote: »

Israel is a tiny country that has been under attack by arabs, from state-warfare to state-sponsored-terrorism to just plain terrorism, since the country was founded....

...by forcibly displacing hundreds of thousands of arabs who had lived there for centuries...

Whats the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter?

Nijmegen

Gurgle wrote: »

...by forcibly displacing hundreds of thousands of arabs who had lived there for centuries...

Whats the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter?

Arguing the point of Israeli's foundation is rethorical at this point. They're there, and despite the best efforts of every arab nation around them, they're still there.

Anyone firing rockets into Israel is pissing into the wind. This was recognised by more moderate elements on the Palestinian side, who were prompty murdered by Hamas during their takeover in Gaza.

Hamas wants the destruction of Israel wholesale. Over on the West Bank, they want some of their land back but will go for peace.

I know who every right thinking person thinks a deal would be done with.

OhNoYouDidn't

What is striking about this latest round of barbarity is how they fundamentally don't care about being caught in murderous acts.

To me that is what puts them apart from other states engaged in dodgy behaviour. No attempt whatsoever to disguise what they are about. Shoot first, spin the propaganda later.

OhNoYouDidn't

Nijmegen wrote: »

Arguing the point of Israeli's foundation is rethorical at this point. They're there, and despite the best efforts of every arab nation around them, they're still there.

Anyone firing rockets into Israel is pissing into the wind. This was recognised by more moderate elements on the Palestinian side, who were prompty murdered by Hamas during their takeover in Gaza.

Hamas wants the destruction of Israel wholesale. Over on the West Bank, they want some of their land back but will go for peace.

I know who every right thinking person thinks a deal would be done with.

What relevance is any of that to the IDF strafing a humanitarian aid convoy in the dead of night in international waters?

Bob the Seducer

I would say the easiest definition to apply is rogue state rather than terrorist.

rogue state, renegade state, rogue nation - a state that does not respect other states in its international actions

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=rogue%20state

Zombrex

Euroland wrote: »

They conduct genocide in Palestine for decades, they attack all their neighbors, they forge our Irish passports to kill foreign politicians, and now they kill innocent activists.

So, I would like to organize a poll on the question:

Is Israel a terrorist state?

No. Terrorism means a specific thing, it doesn't just mean doing bad things. Israel is not a terrorist state, they don't need to be they have a full army.

Nijmegen

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What relevance is any of that to the IDF strafing a humanitarian aid convoy in the dead of night in international waters?

This thread seems to be more a generalized look at Israel, no? We have other discussions for this specific incident.

The Israeli policy is "Israeli security and protecting Israeli lives above most other concerns."

If you lived beside the sea in a country that could be cut in half by tanks in a few short hours, your grandparents came out of concentration camps, your schoolbuses are a favourite target for suicide bombers and rockets habitually land randomly on your country, you'd probably not be as quick to condemn a strong military defence.

Euroland

Wicknight wrote: »

No. Terrorism means a specific thing, it doesn't just mean doing bad things. Israel is not a terrorist state, they don't need to be they have a full army.

How about assassinating Palestinian politician with forged Irish passports in the third country (U.A.E.)?

Euroland

Nijmegen wrote: »

This thread seems to be more a generalized look at Israel, no? We have other discussions for this specific incident.

The Israeli policy is "Israeli security and protecting Israeli lives above most other concerns."

If you lived beside the sea in a country that could be cut in half by tanks in a few short hours, your grandparents came out of concentration camps, your schoolbuses are a favourite target for suicide bombers and rockets habitually land randomly on your country, you'd probably not be as quick to condemn a strong military defence.

Don’t tell me this Israeli propaganda bull****. Why did they come there at the first place?

Nijmegen

Euroland wrote: »

How about assassinating Palestinian politician with forged Irish passports in the third country (U.A.E.)?

You mean a terrorist who had a prt to play in executing at best a prisoner of war, at worst a hostage of a terrorist organisation? A man on his way to procure arms?

If none of those people can ever sleep tightly in their beds, I won't weep.

sink

As other posters have said Israel are not a terrorist state as terrorism has a specific definition which does not fit Israeli actions.

Taking the morality out of it if you look at it objectively Israel is a product of it's environment. They're surrounded by hostile forces, they're judgements on what is right and wrong will be coloured by that fact. It is difficult for anyone not in that position to imagine how they would react.

I don't believe in evil, I believe in causality, "evil" actions don't just happen they're provoked. That applies to all sides in this conflict.

Nijmegen

Euroland wrote: »

Don’t tell me this Israeli propaganda bull****. Why did they come there at the first place?

To Israel?

As I've stated before, it's a bit futile now to ask if the Israeli's ought to bugger off out of Israel.

Arsenal1986

totally agree with alot of sentiments that it was outrageous and a total waste of lives needlessly but have to say that everyone seems to be overlooking the fact that the convoy organizers have alot of blood on their hands in this. What did they expect was going to happen trying to break through a blockade? Several times Israel offered to bring the ships to an Israeli port and escort the aid supplies to Gaza. Obviously, like any sovereign nation, Israel was going to have to board these ships attempting to land in their territory to make sure they weren’t carrying arms to Palestinian terrorists. The organizers deliberately tried to provoke a confrontation with the Israeli military. Now obviously we don’t know exactly what happened when they boarded the ships and something clearly went disastrously wrong. This is Israel’s fault, obviously and hopefully they will feel the full weight of international condemnation for this. But it does seem clear their soldiers were attacked as they boarded the ships - again the convoy organizers should have been in a position to be able to control the people on the ships. Anyway rant over, just being hearing the usual knee jerk anti-Israeli sentiments everywhere and wanted to respond!

OhNoYouDidn't

Nijmegen wrote: »

This thread seems to be more a generalized look at Israel, no? We have other discussions for this specific incident.

The Israeli policy is "Israeli security and protecting Israeli lives above most other concerns."

If you lived beside the sea in a country that could be cut in half by tanks in a few short hours, your grandparents came out of concentration camps, your schoolbuses are a favourite target for suicide bombers and rockets habitually land randomly on your country, you'd probably not be as quick to condemn a strong military defence.

If I came from a culture that saw my people treated like they were in the holocaust I would like to think I would concienciously object to colour coded ID cards for people of differing ethnicities, roads and public transport for my race only and general apartheit, a legal ban on mixed marraiges and a military that has the political cover to murder with impunity and attack aid convoys with helicopter gunships.

But thats just me.

Nodin

Nijmegen wrote: »

This thread seems to be more a generalized look at Israel, no? We have other discussions for this specific incident.

The Israeli policy is "Israeli security and protecting Israeli lives above most other concerns."

If you lived beside the sea in a country that could be cut in half by tanks in a few short hours, your grandparents came out of concentration camps, your schoolbuses are a favourite target for suicide bombers and rockets habitually land randomly on your country, you'd probably not be as quick to condemn a strong military defence.

You might be as good as to explain to me how building semi-detatched housing outside Israels borders equates to a "strong military defence".

Euroland

Nijmegen wrote: »

You mean a terrorist who had a prt to play in executing at best a prisoner of war, at worst a hostage of a terrorist organisation? A man on his way to procure arms?

If none of those people can ever sleep tightly in their beds, I won't weep.

Again Israeli propaganda bull****?

He was just a patriot who was working towards the ending of Israeli occupation and was assassinated by the Israeli thugs.

How about Israel forging our Irish passports then?

OhNoYouDidn't

Arsenal1986 wrote: »

totally agree with alot of sentiments that it was outrageous and a total waste of lives needlessly but have to say that everyone seems to be overlooking the fact that the convoy organizers have alot of blood on their hands in this. What did they expect was going to happen trying to break through a blockade? Several times Israel offered to bring the ships to an Israeli port and escort the aid supplies to Gaza. Obviously, like any sovereign nation, Israel was going to have to board these ships attempting to land in their territory to make sure they weren’t carrying arms to Palestinian terrorists. The organizers deliberately tried to provoke a confrontation with the Israeli military. Now obviously we don’t know exactly what happened when they boarded the ships and something clearly went disastrously wrong. This is Israel’s fault, obviously and hopefully they will feel the full weight of international condemnation for this. But it does seem clear their soldiers were attacked as they boarded the ships - again the convoy organizers should have been in a position to be able to control the people on the ships. Anyway rant over, just being hearing the usual knee jerk anti-Israeli sentiments everywhere and wanted to respond!

They were not attempting to land in Israeli territory though. The blockade is illegal. Israeli policy is to keep the population of Gaza in slightly above starvation and as such the 'offer' from Israel to disperse the aid to the people who need it was not believed. The red cross and Turks inspected the ships and no weapons or other illegal goods were aboard.

This is the IDF, yet again, flexing their muscles against unarmed people who can't fight back. What heros.

SlabMurphy

The zionist state is the very definition of terrorism. Their even worse than the South African aparthied regieme was. And guess who the only country in the world was who sold the SA's weapons.........poor little Israel of course.

Euroland

Nijmegen wrote: »

To Israel?

Israel wasn't there just some 65 years ago.

Nijmegen

Euroland wrote: »

Again Israeli propaganda bull****?

He was just a patriot who was working towards the ending of Israeli occupation and was assassinated by the Israeli thugs.

How about Israel forging our Irish passports then?

Israel is at war with these people, who habitually fire munitions into their territory, and would be blowing up schoolbusses but for Israeli security.

As for forging Irish passports, well I'm sorry to hear that the practice of spying is still rife in the world! Deary me indeed. Next you'll be telling me that every country in the world has an intelligence service that has document forgers in its employ, and even uses them sometimes.

Euroland

Arsenal1986 wrote: »

totally agree with alot of sentiments that it was outrageous and a total waste of lives needlessly but have to say that everyone seems to be overlooking the fact that the convoy organizers have alot of blood on their hands in this. What did they expect was going to happen trying to break through a blockade? Several times Israel offered to bring the ships to an Israeli port and escort the aid supplies to Gaza. Obviously, like any sovereign nation, Israel was going to have to board these ships attempting to land in their territory to make sure they weren’t carrying arms to Palestinian terrorists. The organizers deliberately tried to provoke a confrontation with the Israeli military. Now obviously we don’t know exactly what happened when they boarded the ships and something clearly went disastrously wrong. This is Israel’s fault, obviously and hopefully they will feel the full weight of international condemnation for this. But it does seem clear their soldiers were attacked as they boarded the ships - again the convoy organizers should have been in a position to be able to control the people on the ships. Anyway rant over, just being hearing the usual knee jerk anti-Israeli sentiments everywhere and wanted to respond!

Ha-ha, wake up, good morning, the flotilla was in the international waters and Gaza is not a part of Israel.

Euroland

Nijmegen wrote: »

Israel is at war with these people, who habitually fire munitions into their territory, and would be blowing up schoolbusses but for Israeli security.

Another Israeli propaganda bull****?

Deep Easterly

Wicknight wrote: »

No. Terrorism means a specific thing, it doesn't just mean doing bad things. Israel is not a terrorist state, they don't need to be they have a full army.

Well since one of the definitions of terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians, I think that firmily puts Isreal firmly in the terrorist camp.

Nijmegen

Euroland wrote: »

Another Israely propaganda bull****?

Are you claiming that Hamas does not fire rockets into Israel?

smokingman

Don't really care what people call them as I can't do much about it anyway, but my own problem with israel is that they believe they have a "god given right" to land that isn't theirs....as an atheist, you can see the issue there.

Deep Easterly

Nijmegen wrote: »

Are you claiming that Hamas does not fire rockets into Israel?

But is it not a war, as you claim? or is it only a war when Isreal fire rockets?

Nijmegen

Deep Easterly wrote: »

But is it not a war, as you claim? or is it only a war when Isreal fire rockets?

Hamas thinks it is at war with Israel. I daresay it would be poor national security policy to ignore this.

Deep Easterly

Nijmegen wrote: »

Hamas thinks it is at war with Israel. I daresay it would be poor national security policy to ignore this.

Hamas 'thinks' it is at war with Isreal, while Isreal knows it is at war with Hamas?

The selective definitions we will come up with to justify the oppression and regular slaugher of innocent people.

Nijmegen

Deep Easterly wrote: »

Hamas 'thinks' it is at war with Isreal, while Isreal knows it is at war with Hamas?

The selective definitions we will come up with to justify the oppression and regular slaugher of innocent people.

Hamas regularly f***s high explosive rockets into Israel with no discrimination to where they land, and likely the hopes that they land on something packed with a lot of people for maximum effect.

If I was the Israeli people, I'd take a rather dim view of that.

OhNoYouDidn't

Nijmegen wrote: »

Hamas regularly f***s high explosive rockets into Israel with no discrimination to where they land, and likely the hopes that they land on something packed with a lot of people for maximum effect.

If I was the Israeli people, I'd take a rather dim view of that.

Yet these rockets have killed less people in 10 years than the IDF did aid workers in 10 minutes last night....

Fr Tod Umptious

Euroland wrote: »

Another Israely propaganda bull****?

wow such a articulate piece of analysis on this very complex topic, and good spelling too.

Personally I have no dog in this fight so I really don't care how may on each side are killed, but I would much prefer if it was 0

I believe that Israelites are racist towards Jewish people and favour Jewish people.

But that does not mean that they should be wiped off the face of the earth, which is what Palestinians wish to see happen.

Nijmegen

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Yet these rockets have killed less people in 10 years than the IDF did aid workers in 10 minutes last night....

Since when does one compare 1 for 1 in war? Israel kills more people because it's the bigger player.

The allies took out more city and people in one night of bombing Hamburg than the entire Blitz on London. Does that make the Allies evil? No. It helped them win the war.

The bigger man wins in a war. Hamas are too stupid to realise that and come to the table, as their colleagues in the W. Bank realised.

dlofnep

Has Israel committed acts of terrorism? Yes.

wes

Yes, of course they are. What they are doing in Gaza, is simple terrorism imho, for example.

BluePlanet

Yes they are a terrorist state.

Euroland

Nijmegen wrote: »

Are you claiming that Hamas does not fire rockets into Israel?

Those rockets are used only for defense, and extend of damage from them is microscopic relatively to the extend of genocide conducted by Israel against Palestinians on a daily basis.

Nijmegen

Those rockets are used only for defense, and extend of damage from them is microscopic relatively to the extend of genocide conducted by Israel against Palestinians on a daily basis.

Some defence, firing unguided rockets in the general direction of civilian population centers.

And suicide bombings on schoolbusses?

If Israel is a terrorist state, what does that make Hamas run Gaza?

Nody

Gurgle wrote: »

Whats the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter?

Winning.

bernardo mac

Yes it is , fundamentally,arrogantly and unashamedly so

Euroland

Nijmegen wrote: »

Hamas regularly f***s high explosive rockets into Israel with no discrimination to where they land, and likely the hopes that they land on something packed with a lot of people for maximum effect.

If I was the Israeli people, I'd take a rather dim view of that.

You are an Israeli, working for the Israeli propaganda machine, and we can easily notice this.

wes

Nijmegen wrote: »

Some defence, firing unguided rockets in the general direction of civilian population centers.

And suicide bombings on schoolbusses?

No suicide bombings for a few years last I checked. Irregardless, Hamas's actions are of course, wrong, just like Israel illegal siege, and there own murderous assaults on civilians.

Nijmegen wrote: »

If Israel is a terrorist state, what does that make Hamas run Gaza?

The thread is about Israel not Hamas, who are a terrorist organization, and imho the IDF are no different to them. The IDF and the Israeli government should be put on the EU list of terrorists asap, as we really wouldn't want to be one sided, and only condemn one group of terrorists, and ignore the other far bigger, and more murderour terrorist (the IDF).

Euroland

Nijmegen wrote: »

If Israel is a terrorist state, what does that make Hamas run Gaza?

Hamas is at home, it is elected by own people and it tries to defend own people against Israeli invaders’ genocide.

prinz

Euroland wrote: »

You are an Israeli, working for the Israeli propaganda machine, and we can easily notice this.

:rolleyes:

Israel - rogue state most definitely, heavy handed yes, walking a legal tightrope yes, frequently out of order yes. Terrorist state - not so much.