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Government defeats byelection motion

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    #32
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    danman wrote: »
    If anyone on here had a vote on whether they would get the sack, which way would you vote?

    It's simply human nature.
    Nothing more.

    Firstly, FF seem to believe that they're doing the right thing. If they truly believe this, then they should actually be convinced that they wouldn't get the sack.

    In their deluded minds, they didn't cause this, so (in there) the reason most of us hate their guts and can't wait to see the back of them doesn't exist.

    Secondly, it doesn't matter what "human nature" is.....if those with the power to right a wrong don't, and it's because it's in their own vested interests, then it's corruption.


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    #33
    Marshy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭Marshy


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Firstly, FF seem to believe that they're doing the right thing. If they truly believe this, then they should actually be convinced that they wouldn't get the sack.
    What they say and what they actually believe are two different things though. I'm sure they don't actually think this move can be rationalised but they have to at least be seen to legitimise it in some way.


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    #34
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I'm dissappointed with this. I live in Waterford and we need representation. This is a terrible move by FF and it's going to cost them here, where they normally enjoy a strong vote.


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    #35
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »
    Yes heard a fianna fail senator on last word saying we didnt to hold the by elections because there were too many TDS as it was and then went off on a tangent about Fine Gael celebrity tds in Dun Laoghaire.
    The law is an absolute ass on this. Electorate voted in a td for a purpose, if that seat is vacated it should be filled ASAP

    I agree with him there are too many TD's but that is for a referendum to change not the current government.

    As for Senators we have too many of those, as in all of them. Part of the Referendum should be the dissolution of the Seanad.


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    #36
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    DeVore wrote: »
    Its a frackin' disgrace and if people want to march and protest over something, it should be THAT.

    The problem of course is who do we put in instead of them?


    DeV.
    Are you telling me between Labour, FG and the independents we cant put together a decent opposition?


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    #37
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »
    Are you telling me between Labour, FG and the independents we cant put together a decent opposition?

    They'd want to be better independents than the shower that have helped the Greens prop up FF and voted with all their sickening agendas!


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    #38
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    They'd want to be better independents than the shower that have helped the Greens prop up FF and voted with all their sickening agendas!
    I think there are some good people on the opposition. Richard Bruton, Joan Burton etc. I just hope people dont fall for the same Fianna Fail ploy of putting down FG to make themselves look better.


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    #39
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    DeVore wrote: »
    Its a frackin' disgrace and if people want to march and protest over something, it should be THAT.

    The problem of course is who do we put in instead of them?


    DeV    .


    if only he was still around........ :pac:


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    #40
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    deadtiger wrote: »
    These elections have to be held and the Government know they are going to get stamped on whenever they hold why do they not just set a date and get them over with.

    All they are doing is adding fuel to the fire that they are being undemocratic and are not allowing people in the effected constituencies have full representation.




    Why six months the positions should be filled as soon as possible with a maximum time to call the elections at 3 months.

    Then again if we had a list system then the seat would be filled by the next person on the list of candidates that the parties submitted before the general election without the need for another wasteful by-election.


    Full Story is here.
    Five votes is a very small minority. FF really digging in their heels now.


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    #41
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »
    I think there are some good people on the opposition. Richard Bruton, Joan Burton etc. I just hope people dont fall for the same Fianna Fail ploy of putting down FG to make themselves look better.

    No argument there.

    But I specifically mentioned independents, and I hope the incoming government doesn't have to rely on the same scummy independents that sold us out on NAMA, Anglo and the various votes of confidence.


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    #42
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    No argument there.

    But I specifically mentioned independents, and I hope the incoming government doesn't have to rely on the same scummy independents that sold us out on NAMA, Anglo and the various votes of confidence.
    Hard to know which way the independent will go but I dont think they will make that much of a difference to Fianna Fails numbers this time.
    I can really see FF being decimated in next election along with the Greens.


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    #43
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »
    Hard to know which way the independent will go but I dont think they will make that much of a difference to Fianna Fails numbers this time.
    I can really see FF being decimated in next election along with the Greens.

    I think you misunderstood me.....what I mean is that I hope they don't be required for the incoming government....nothing to do with FF.

    But I don't want any of the "independent" weasels that sold us out involved in the new government either.


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    #44
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I think you misunderstood me.....what I mean is that I hope they don't be required for the incoming government....nothing to do with FF.

    But I don't want any of the "independent" weasels that sold us out involved in the new government either.
    You know the deal with independents though. They will get the best deal for their constituents by making whatever deal they can.
    Which is always the problem. One constituency benefits while another one suffers.


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    #45
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,734 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »
    Hard to know which way the independent will go but I dont think they will make that much of a difference to Fianna Fails numbers this time.
    I can really see FF being decimated in next election along with the Greens.

    Indeed they will likely be decimated.

    Though Labour completely fail to put forward any coherent economic plan, indeed this crap about reversing the paycuts would be simply ruinous.

    And then there's FG who just sit on the fence and don't really put forward any plans for how they'll deal with the National Debt.

    The sad fact is we are cursed with some of the most useless political parties and politicians in the world, and there's quite alot of evidence that FG/Lab are even less qualified to sort this mess out then the muppets who got us here in the first place......


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    #46
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    unaetoile wrote: »
    Is this a dictatorship or a democracy. The lack of a by-election is clear sign of the former. If these seats do not merit a democratically elected representative of the people, why not just eliminate and reduce the number of TDs by this 3 (a starting point to reform the number of non-productive members of the Dail).

    Constitution defines the number of TDs that must be elected pro rata of population. Think its not less that 1 per 30,000 and not more than 1 per 20,000. Dunno would 3 less affect that?]
    Bunreacht na h&#201 wrote: »
    1° Dáil Éireann shall be composed of members who represent constituencies determined by law.

    2° The number of members shall from time to time be fixed by law, but the total number of members of Dáil Éireann shall not be fixed at less than one member for each thirty thousand of the population, or at more than one member for each twenty thousand of the population.

    3° The ratio between the number of members to be elected at any time for each constituency and the population of each constituency, as ascertained at the last preceding census, shall, so far as it is practicable, be the same throughout the country.


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    #47
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    This issue really should not be let die. It doesn't surprise me that Fianna Fail don't want it to happen, but yet again the lapdogs at the Greens show why they wont be returning a single TD in the next election. This is as undemocratic as it gets. If Biffo is that convinced that the people are happy with his leadership, then he should have no issues about holding these by elections. But he knows damn well the people of this country do not want this unelected dreadful man leading us. Therefore a GE should be called.


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    #48
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Firstly, FF seem to believe that they're doing the right thing. If they truly believe this, then they should actually be convinced that they wouldn't get the sack.

    In their deluded minds, they didn't cause this, so (in there) the reason most of us hate their guts and can't wait to see the back of them doesn't exist.

    Secondly, it doesn't matter what "human nature" is.....if those with the power to right a wrong don't, and it's because it's in their own vested interests, then it's corruption.

    Liam, there is a big difference between believing that you're doing the right thing and believing that your popular.
    So that argument doesn't stake up.
    I've read this argument a few times on this forum.

    Was it Dermot Aherne recently, that admitted that FF would loose the next election.
    I think they know exactly were they stand.

    Given that, they are hanging onto their jobs by their fingernails, would any other person on here vote for themselves to loose their jobs?

    I actually want the Donegal by election. Simply because SF think that they have it in the bag. They are in for a rude awakening.
    They think that because Pearse Doherty just missed out in the GE, that he will get in now. Forgetting that the 2 main parties have more support between them and he will only get first preferances and very little transfers.


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    #49
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    In effect some of those gombeen independents, and the spineless worthless greens are denying democracy to the people of Ireland. Id expect nothing less from Fianna Fail


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    #50
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    danman wrote: »
    Liam, there is a big difference between believing that you're doing the right thing and believing that your popular.

    I'm aware of that.

    My point is that they have proven time and time again that they have no interest in doing "the right thing".

    The "right thing" is to hold the by-elections.

    And since they're putting themselves first and not doing that, it just begs the question what else they're doing in their own interests.......NAMA, Anglo, etc ?


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    #51
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    So how long can they hold out for. I mean hypothetically can they put this off until the next General Election?


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    #52
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    From a slightly different perspective constituencies where the vile independents that prop up the Government get special deals, extra funding for pet projects etc and the 3 constituencies do not even get a speaker to act for them in any matter that a TD deals with. It defies belief and it shows the lengths that FF are prepared to go to stay in office. I hope that the electorate resoundly vote them out...... at the next election.


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    #53
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    It's a pathetic and cowardly joke that they even fought against a motion for the elections.


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    #54
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I'm aware of that.

    My point is that they have proven time and time again that they have no interest in doing "the right thing".

    The "right thing" is to hold the by-elections.

    And since they're putting themselves first and not doing that, it just begs the question what else they're doing in their own interests.......NAMA, Anglo, etc ?

    I don't deny that the right thing is to hold the byelections. But to use the argument that...
    Firstly, FF seem to believe that they're doing the right thing. If they truly believe this, then they should actually be convinced that they wouldn't get the sack.

    .....doesn't make sense.

    They know that they are gone in the next GE, so again, why would they vote to give themselves the sack?
    Would anyone on here vote for themselves to be sacked?

    As I've said, it's human nature to hold onto your job for as long as you can.

    As for the Greens, they may well have no representitives in the next Dail. They will have no chance to implimentany of their green policies that they believe in.
    In that case, is anyone surprised that they will not vote for an election?


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    #55
    monosharp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭monosharp


    DeVore wrote: »
    Its a frackin' disgrace and if people want to march and protest over something, it should be THAT.

    The problem of course is who do we put in instead of them?

    I'm finally beginning to understand how the proletariat in tzarist Russia must have felt.

    "Democracy for an insignificant minority, democracy for the rich – that is the democracy of capitalist society." - Marx

    Anyone up for a revolution ? I call Chairman of the party :pac:


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    #56
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    Brussels Sprout wrote: »
    So how long can they hold out for. I mean hypothetically can they put this off until the next General Election?

    I have heard that the government are going to put off the Dublin Mayoral election and the childrens referendum until next year. So no by-elections this year if true.


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    #57
    Jaysoose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭Jaysoose


    Fitzcaraldo wrote: »
    Not necessarily - the majority of the Seanad are elected by sitting and ex-politicians and councillors, you then have Cowen's choice and the Uni vote. The reality is that the make up seldom differs from that in the Dail.

    There is a provision for a different method of election but it has not been used since Dev got the hump. The real idea is that the Seanad should be drawn from different interest groups, divorced from traditional party political lines. If they were granted the power to strike down and/or amend legislation as opposed to just dely it, it may force a change in the way in which the Dail operates.

    IS there a bigger waste of money and resources than the seanad?

    Bunch of useless td's ranting and raving in the 'back room'


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    #58
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,480 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Jaysoose wrote: »
    IS there a bigger waste of money and resources than the seanad?

    Bunch of useless td's ranting and raving in the 'back room'

    while it is badly organised and elected at the moment it is key to ensuring the Dail heads don't get above themselves and put through all kinds of daft laws* etc. It is needed and should stay albeit in reduced numbers.

    * - well at least in theory


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    #59
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    deadtiger wrote: »
    These elections have to be held and the Government know they are going to get stamped on whenever they hold why do they not just set a date and get them over with.

    All they are doing is adding fuel to the fire that they are being undemocratic and are not allowing people in the effected constituencies have full representation.




    Why six months the positions should be filled as soon as possible with a maximum time to call the elections at 3 months.

    Then again if we had a list system then the seat would be filled by the next person on the list of candidates that the parties submitted before the general election without the need for another wasteful by-election.


    Full Story is here.

    Yet again, Kenny makes a complete fool of himself and his Party. Enda Kenny is FF's best hope of being rescued from politicial oblivion !

    Of course this delay in calling the three byelections makes a complete nonsense of claims by TDs about how hard working they are - if their absence from three constituencies is so umimportant then that is a reflection of significant their work is ! It is also highly undemocratic.


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    #60
    Jaysoose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭Jaysoose


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    while it is badly organised and elected at the moment it is key to ensuring the Dail heads don't get above themselves and put through all kinds of daft laws* etc. It is needed and should stay albeit in reduced numbers.

    * - well at least in theory

    Thats the problem, they should be doing all the above but in reality its the political equivalent of the naughty step....with the back bench being their first warning of course.


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    #61
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Jaysoose wrote: »
    IS there a bigger waste of money and resources than the seanad?

    Bunch of useless td's ranting and raving in the 'back room'
    I think with the likes of Shane Ross we have someone who at least willing to expose the big money men.
    Seanad numbers should be halved


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