Remember the minarets?

Laminations wrote: »

What about the market for the sloganised 't-shirt hell-esque' burqa/niqab??

It would definitely make face covering more fun. I can think of many hilarious slogans, none of which I will post

Indeedy.

On the Ban the Burqua thread, I enquired several times about the origin of the Burqua but none was forthcoming.
Tom Holland's book 'Millenium' gives the answer on page 235. . .Abu ‘Ali Mansur Tāriqu l-Ḥākim ( 996 - 1021_ Caliph of Egypt ordered women everywhere to be veiled when out in public; according to Mr Holland's book, the Caliph introduced this measure in order to curb female promiscuity !
Page 235 Millennium.
" First he order women every where to be veiled when out in public; then he banned them from leaving their homes; finally he forbade them even so much as to peer out of their windows or doors. Cobblers were instructed from making them shoes. Those whose voices disturbed the Caliph as he walked through the streets might expect to be walled up and left to starve. "

Some of his other ecentricities, according to the book, include ordering all dogs in Cairo be put to the sword and dumped in dessert, banning the sale of watercress and banning the playing of chess.
So it would seem from this that veiling of female faces was more designed to protect men from women rather than protecting the modesty of women !
Further info on the caliph :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hakim_bi-Amr_Allah
.

prinz wrote: »

Mr Holland should do better research. Burka style clothing outdates the above by centuries.

perhaps yuou could assist him by giving quotes or references ?
The following comes from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hakim_bi-Amr_Allah
Religious Minorities and the Law of Differentiation
Al-Hakim disliked the influence of the Christian Church in Jerusalem. He ordered random arrests, executions, and the destruction of churches as early as 1001. His attitude towards Christians grew hostile by 1003 when he ordered a recently built church destroyed and replaced by a mosque and went on to turn two other churches into mosques. In 1004 he decreed that the Christians could no longer celebrate Epiphany or Easter.[8] He also outlawed the use of wine (nabidh) and even other intoxicating drinks not made from grapes (fuqa) to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike.[7] This produced a hardship for both Christians (who used wine in their religious rites) and Jews (who used it in their religious festivals).
In 1005, al-Ḥākim ordered that Jews and Christians follow ghiyār "the law of differentiation" – in this case, the mintaq or zunnar "belt" (Greek ζοναριον) and ‘imāmah "turban", both in black. In addition, Jews must wear a wooden calf necklace and Christians an iron cross. In the public baths, Jews must replace the calf with a bell. In addition, women of the Ahl al-Kitab had to wear two different coloured shoes, one red and one black. These remained in place until 1014.[9]
Al-Ḥākim engaged in other erratic behaviour in 1005: he ordered the killing of all the dogs in Egypt and had them discarded in the desert. He also forced the inhabitants of Cairo to work at night and go to bed in the mornings and severely punished anyone caught violating his orders.
Following contemporary Shiite thinking, during this period al-Ḥākim also issued many other rigid restrictive ordinances (sijillat). These sijill included outlawing entrance to a public bath with uncovered loins, forbidding women from appearing in public with their faces uncovered, and closing many clubs and places of entertainment.[7]
The refernce in wiki for above is :
a b c d e f g h Nissim Dana (2003). The Druze in the Middle East: Their Faith, Leadership, Identity and Status. Sussex Academic Press.

prinz wrote: »

Sure..



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

There is evidence that this type of dress was worn by some Arab and Persian women long before Islam. For example, the Roman African Christian Tertullian, writing in Chapter 17 of The Veiling of Virgins around 200 AD, praises the modesty of those "pagan women of Arabia" who "not only cover their head, but their whole face...preferring to enjoy half the light with one eye rather than prostituting their whole face

I presume you noted the word ' prostituting' which seems to reflect hte caliph's rather low opinion of women, dont you agree ?

I am not sure how the wearing of ' burqua' type face cloths by " pagan women " is connected with the wearing of a burqua by devout Islmaic women ?

prinz wrote: »

The word prostituting above is from the quote by Tertullian, not the Caliph. It also does not reflect on the woman herself, in this context it is interchangeable with showing/exposing/etc.



People were wearing them long before this Caliph and his collection of motley laws came along. The wearing of burkas has no bearing whatsoever on the level of devotion either.

Come now ! This caliph is an extremely important Islamic figure, so the reference to his 'motley laws' does not reflect his significance to the religion.

prinz wrote: »

His importance or lack of is irrelevant. Burkas were already being worn in the Arabian peninsula long before he came around.

I am afraid you are missing the point; it is being claimed that banning burquas is being anti islamic, so we must look to the Islamic origins of the garment.

prinz wrote: »

No I'm not. It's irrelevant because Muslims were wearing burka style clothing long before ths Caliph came along. This chap and his laws is not the Islamic origin of wearing burkas.

Tehn you might explain the Islamic origins so ?

prinz wrote: »

Islam started in Arabia. The first converts were the same pagans mentioned by Tertullian. I think it's safe to say they continued to wear burka type clothing for practical reasons living in the desert.

As you obivously dont have any references or sources or explanations of the Islamic origins of the burqua, why are you criticising those who do ?

prinz wrote: »

of the Bukhari Hadith collection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_al-Bukhari

Sahih Al-Bukhari who lived before your Caliph, recording a saying by Aisha, that's this Aisha..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

There are plenty of references of Muslim being completely covered in burka like wear long before the 10th century. The only thing that Caliph did was enact a law enforcing an already common practice.

So is this lady also a Prophet ?
Also is there any reference in the Koran to the need to wear veils or a burqua ?

prinz wrote: »

No.



Yes there are references to women being veiled in public in the Koran. There is no requirement for the face to be covered it was open to interpretation to what extent modest dress must be taken. For some it was a heascarf, others covered their whole as per the post above.

Plase give the precise references from the Koran, particularily the ones regarding the burqua and the possibilty of taking your interpretation. After all a veil is usually intended to cover up the hair, is it not ? Covering up the face is an entirely different matter and must surely require a specific mandate.

prinz wrote: »

There is no precise reference to the burka is the Koran. There is no specific instruction to cover your face in the Koran.

This piece gives some of the references..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niq%C4%81b

You mean there is absolutely no requirement in the Koran at all to wearing a burqua.
It is not a religous requirment therefore, banning it cant be anti islamic, can it ?

prinz wrote: »

There is no religious requirement whatsoever to wear a full burka. Covering your face was a cultural practice that was adopted but it is in no way mandatory for a Muslim woman to cover her face in Islam.

Not alone is it not mandatory but it is not even shown to be desirable.

There is abolutely no basis for encoraging its use at all. It is simply a device to have women treated as chattels, the property of men.
It has also been shown to be medically unhealthy both for a woman and for any unborn child she might be carrying.. It should be banned on health grounds alone.